Masculine submission

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Something I've found that commonly crops up in my conversations on Literotica is the reconciliation of masculinity and submission, as many social constructs and gender roles make submission antithetical to the male gender identity. While I'm sure many in this community shirk the concept of stereotypical gender roles and accept the inherant dimensionality of gender identity, fetishes like sissification and feminisation often rely on these heuristic associations.

What I am wondering is what both submissives and dominants think about the notion of a masculine conceptualisation of submission. In my mind I envisage a focus on maintaining an athletic physique, a 'toughness' demonstrated by withstanding things like CBT, pain-play and anal play, as well as a manifestation of 'protection/provision' through service to the dominant.

Is this something that many dominants find desirable in a sub. To male-subs in particular is this something you identify with or would like to adopt.

All perspectives welcome! Thank you for taking the time to read through my ramblings.

EH

 

[PaxNurgle]

There are two aspects of submission, from a male side, which I can comment on: The desire to please, to make a woman smile and laugh, to be a gentleman, gallant, loyal, and the "boy to warm her mother's heart" is one aspect. This stems from a feeling that it is better to give than receive, and thus, many male subs are wired to be the givers of pleasure, which in turn gives them pleasure.

On the kink side, the ability to withstand physical pain for her sake is also a part of where the masochistic side stems from. I also believe, for my own personal health and livlihood, in maintaining a healthy and active lifestyle and physique, for my partner's sake but as much for my own.

I do see a fair amount of stigma towards male submissives and female-led BDSM relationships, even on this site, and sometimes even in this forum. Part of that, I think, does stem from traditional gender roles in a relationship. The notion that a male is submissive to a woman, or (especially) engages in certain heavy compromising kink behavior, cuckolding, etc with a stronger female- all this probably makes some people in traditional gender-relationship roles a bit uncomfortable. And a lot of that is just the demographic, it's in the numbers- If the majority of BDSM practitioners are male dominants and female submissives, I suspect many of these people are probably not comfortable with, or even very accepting of, the opposite dynamic.

 

[cookiecat]

I can't speak to this issue on a personal level because I'm a submissive woman. However, I have friends in female led relationships. My sense is it's like any other relationship - whatever fits.

I don't see my female Dominant friends seeking out a type in a submissive male. It's more about who fits them as a whole person.

What Pax describes as better to give than receive as well as the ability to withstand pain are, I believe, submissive traits in general, not necessarily male or female.

I haven't seen the stigma around here surrounding female D, male s relationships. But then again, I haven't been involved in some of those conversations, so they might've passed right by me.

I started a femdom thread up in the cafe and for sure, the majority of pictures are about a manly man at the feet of an uber feminine but strong looking woman. It's no different in many of the other threads - lots of stereotypes running amok.

Actually the reason I'm replying to this is I remembered another thread about this subject and thought some of the comments fit nicely in this thread.

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=1499415

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Those are very understandable motivations Pax, and I agree with Cookiecat that the submissive root is very much a gender neutral concept. I guess my consideration was more for the manifestation of the submission in femdom relationships.

Even in my limited time as an overtly submissive male in this community I have seen (and in a few instances) experienced the stigma you are describing Pax. It's understandable that a there would be members of the BDSM community, particularly those who tie their gender identity to their sexual identity, may find those who adopt a diametrically opposed view uncomfortable or distasteful.

I do recognise that every relationship is different and will likely contain elements of both feminine and masculine submission, as well as moving fluidly between them. It seems though that the latter is less commonly represented in the kink zeitgeist and I was curious if this was indicative of dominant's ideal characteristics for a male sub.

I have noticed that as well, it was one of the reasons I became curious about this topic. Although I think part of the prevalence of such physiques is a general preference towards stereotypically attractive people when shooting erotica. If you look at femdom pornography often the male subs are particularly short, slender and not overtly masculine.

I'll be sure to take a look at this thread and the one you mentioned in the Café, thanks for linking them Cookiecat

EH

 

[Ginlover]

I wanted to write some female dominant characters so spoke to quite a few Dommes and switches.
First off there is no normal, some women like a man they can physically dominate and some male submissives want to be over powered by an amazonian tall strong woman. Then there are woman who are physically weaker who enjoy dominating the strong man and the subs who want to submit despite the fact they could force or take control back at any point, but they choose not to.

For me I find writing the latter easier, partly because I find it allows for more internal thoughts and is closer to how I've topped irl.

Shifting Dynamics and Turning the Tables look at the stereotypical strong alpha man submitting to a physically smaller and weaker woman. One from the man's perspective and the second from the woman's point of view.

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

I wanted to write some female dominant characters so spoke to quite a few Dommes and switches.
First off there is no normal, some women like a man they can physically dominate and some male submissives want to be over powered by an amazonian tall strong woman. Then there are woman who are physically weaker who enjoy dominating the strong man and the subs who want to submit despite the fact they could force or take control back at any point, but they choose not to.

I do completely recognise that there is no template or standard dynamic for a D/s couple, I was curious about the commonality between preferences for masculine vs androgenous/feminine male subs.

I'll be sure to take a look at those pieces Ginlover

EH

 

[MysteriousRyu]

There are two aspects of submission, from a male side, which I can comment on: The desire to please, to make a woman smile and laugh, to be a gentleman, gallant, loyal, and the "boy to warm her mother's heart" is one aspect. This stems from a feeling that it is better to give than receive, and thus, many male subs are wired to be the givers of pleasure, which in turn gives them pleasure.

On the kink side, the ability to withstand physical pain for her sake is also a part of where the masochistic side stems from. I also believe, for my own personal health and livlihood, in maintaining a healthy and active lifestyle and physique, for my partner's sake but as much for my own.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Chivalry is inherently masculine and stamina can be attributed to being masculine as well.

 

[Lascivity]

If this is something you're interested in I'd very highly recommend Ursula K Le Guin's book Birthday of the World. It does a lot of things well, but one among them is to paint a picture of a world in which men are subservient to women, but still very plainly masculine. It's interesting, even if you don't normally like sci-fi.

 

[HotXBuns]

An interesting thread and well-observed.

I identify as dominant and fall in to the practical "manly-man" stereotype, but I have spent several years now taking on a submissive role. I see it as a challenge to maintain that masculinity while being the perfect submissive and accepting whatever is visited upon me. For me, turning in to a sniveling wreck would be to fail as a submissive, but my opinion only.

I do concur that a lot of the imagery out there and plenty of stories portray the male submissive as either a sissy (especially in pegging activities) or as someone who is quite a way from the peak of their physical fitness, often being dominated by the archetypal Domme with all the usual trimmings. I almost never see (or read) stories about a smaller, more normal Domme, not necessarily dressed up, putting her strong, manly submissive through his paces. I genuinely feel that the interaction should come from an underlying love, but again, I struggle to find this represented in media.

In the end though, we should not be dictated by the imagery available but should go our own way and do what's right for us as individuals. I've tried to capture this different approach in the few F/M stories I've written and I seek out and up-vote others that steer clear of those archetypes. I guess it will never be 'mainstream', but surely the point of BDSM is non-conforming!

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

If this is something you're interested in I'd very highly recommend Ursula K Le Guin's book Birthday of the World. It does a lot of things well, but one among them is to paint a picture of a world in which men are subservient to women, but still very plainly masculine. It's interesting, even if you don't normally like sci-fi.

Thanks for the recommendation Lascivity! I'm quite keen on sci-fi so it sounds very appealing.

I'm curious as to how they establish and ground a femdom society. In other pieces I have read that use this concept I find it is implemented problematically.

EH

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Thanks HotXBuns, I'm happy to see there is interest about it.

I agree that the consolidation of these parts of one's identity can be difficult. Since my preferred dynamic is more of an affirmative/gentle dominant I'm not often exposed to those kinds of humiliation-based practices, however in my case I often ran into feminisation/sissification fantasies which I was conflicted about.

I agree, although I think the issue of archetypical domes is more down to a bias in pornography casting. I've found watching cammers and self-published amateurs is a better place to find those kind of scenes.

Oh absolutely, and it seems there is definitely appetite for this kind of relationship within the community. Good on you for supporting those artists by the way

EH

 

[Ashesh9]

Cult of Ancient Femdom Goddess!!!

Something I've found that commonly crops up in my conversations on Literotica is the reconciliation of masculinity and submission, as many social constructs and gender roles make submission antithetical to the male gender identity. While I'm sure many in this community shirk the concept of stereotypical gender roles and accept the inherant dimensionality of gender identity, fetishes like sissification and feminisation often rely on these heuristic associations.

What I am wondering is what both submissives and dominants think about the notion of a masculine conceptualisation of submission. In my mind I envisage a focus on maintaining an athletic physique, a 'toughness' demonstrated by withstanding things like CBT, pain-play and anal play, as well as a manifestation of 'protection/provision' through service to the dominant.

Is this something that many dominants find desirable in a sub. To male-subs in particular is this something you identify with or would like to adopt.

All perspectives welcome! Thank you for taking the time to read through my ramblings.

EH

can I give an ancient philosophical/ideological basis for a very narrow slice of Femdom which has been successfully around for Centuries in a Male Chauvinist, Patriarchial society in Asia??
Goddess Kali has been trampling Her Hubby Lord Shiva an archetypal Male Icon for upwards of 5000 years in Hindu iconography and Her Mortal Devotees sing of 'She Who Conquers the Terrible God of Destruction!!" as sacred Hymn to Her Idol and it is Not considered FemDom but spiritual Truth here in India!!!
She is considered the Cosmic Creatrix who created Males as Submissives to Her and Only Her. Mortal Woman are not to be Worshipped . Even Male Devotees of Kali submit to Her but Not to their Mortal Wives. Women are still mistreated but Male Devotees perform Painful Penance like inserting steel Rods thru their Penis to torture their Prostate Gland/Mooldhara Chakra. Prostate Blood spurts outta' the Lingam/Penis/Organ as worship of Kali!!! Fresh Red Prostate Blood is offered as Tribute to Kali Puja/Prayer/Worship!!!!
It is Not a Fetish which makes Lord Shiva and other Males submit to Kali but as She has made them Submissive to Her it's not their fault or fetish!!!! They remain as Macho as they like otherwise but guiltlessly submit to Her Who created them without any shame ...

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Thanks for sharing Ashesh, definitely an interesting case! You mention that there is a clear distinction between faith and fetish in men's submission to Kali, as it is a form of worship. I'm guessing the distinction that is drawn between the reverence to Kali and the lack of such towards mortal women is that Kali is deserving of their submission as she is a deity (who in particular conquered Shiva) rather than her being a woman. Is Kali referenced/alluded to in the Indian kink community?

The offerings you mentioned seem to resonate with the Flagellent movements in medieval Europe, which also occasionally included anal/genital mutilation/wounding.

EH

 

[Ashesh9]

A Very Big Thank You!!!

Thanks for sharing Ashesh, definitely an interesting case! You mention that there is a clear distinction between faith and fetish in men's submission to Kali, as it is a form of worship. I'm guessing the distinction that is drawn between the reverence to Kali and the lack of such towards mortal women is that Kali is deserving of their submission as she is a deity (who in particular conquered Shiva) rather than her being a woman. Is Kali referenced/alluded to in the Indian kink community?

The offerings you mentioned seem to resonate with the Flagellent movements in medieval Europe, which also occasionally included anal/genital mutilation/wounding.

EH

EH: there is no such formal BDSM community in India but a huge Kali Cult esp. in Eastern states of Assam, Bengal, Bihar and Odisha!!!!

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

EH: there is no such formal BDSM community in India but a huge Kali Cult esp. in Eastern states of Assam, Bengal, Bihar and Odisha!!!!

I'm not sure many places can be described as having a formal BDSM community but I take your point.

 

[PaxNurgle]

I seem to remember there being a big Kali cult in the Phankot region. I remember seeign some kind of documentary or something about it- they eat things like Snake Surprise, Eyeball Soup, giant stuffed beetles and Chilled Monkey Brains, and during rituals, they rip people's hearts out and throw then into a pit of lava. Plus they would kidnap kids from the local villages and enslave them in mines- it's pretty messed up.

 

[Ashesh9]

Cult of Ancient Femdom Goddess!!!

I seem to remember there being a big Kali cult in the Phankot region. I remember seeign some kind of documentary or something about it- they eat things like Snake Surprise, Eyeball Soup, giant stuffed beetles and Chilled Monkey Brains, and during rituals, they rip people's hearts out and throw then into a pit of lava. Plus they would kidnap kids from the local villages and enslave them in mines- it's pretty messed up.

SORRY PAX: WE DON'T DO CORONA VIRUS WET MARKET TYPE DIET HERE IN EASTERN INDIA: THAT IS STRICTLY PRES. XI'S CHINESE PEOPLE'S LIB ARMY GANG NOW ILLEGALLY OCCUPYING TIBET

 

[PaxNurgle]

It was an Indiana Jones reference.

 

[Ashesh9]

It was an Indiana Jones reference.

Whatever floats whosoever'$ boats!!!

 

[Eloquent_Hedonist]

Well after that little tangent I thought it might be pertinent to put things back on track. For those who are interested in this topic I was directed to this fantastic article, which lays out some excellent points and ideas about masculine expression of submission. Would recommend a read.

https://slutphd.com/2017/02/12/submission-is-masculine-too/

EH

 

[BHughes]

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[Eloquent_Hedonist]

This is a great question and for me it could go either way depending on my dominate partners wishes. I am a strong successful male and enjoy maintaining an athletic physique as well as portraying a typical male role in most aspects of my life. However, once that door closes I want to turn myself over completely, as she desires. I’d love to be her strong man as she pleases.. or her toy to be used however if she doesn’t. I am hers in every way.. if it were more masculine or more feminine would be entirely at her will.

Thanks for sharing BHughes! Very adaptable of you, I liked to think that I was of this mindset but after speaking more in depth about feminisation-sissification fantasies with other subs it's something I've become less sure of (although would probably still try given the right context). Do you find either form of expression more comfortable?

 

[BHughes]

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[Eloquent_Hedonist]

My pleasure Eloquent_Hedonist.. I’m happy to share. I appreciate the question. I suppose the sissification role would be most comfortable. I enjoy imagining myself as submissive as possible to my partner and as I fantasize and role-play potential outcomes that is the most prominent. I think it fits well with all my pleasing desires and allows my dom to take the most power possible.

Fair enough, no wrong answers of course! Always good to hear another perspective. So coming from a background of feminised expressions of submission how would you express it in a masculine form?

EH

 

[BHughes]

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