Letter to "The Nation" from a young radical

[BotanyBoy]

The UK is a free country, where elections are fair, and speech is free, and anybody who feels their individual rights have been violated by the state can get a lawyer and some do. Plus there's UHC. The UK is, in fact, a pretty good model for America to aspire to if we must have any foreign models at all -- which certainly we should, if not must. The UK invented the modern concepts of individual civil liberties and rights; the American versions of which are rooted, pre-Constitutionally, in Anglo-Saxon common law. If you're classing the UK and Soviet governments together as "lefty governments" or indeed as anything at all beyond "governments," your instruments need calibrating, nay, replacing.

What does any of that have to do with the fact that they are still invasive as all fuck? You can't name a single left wing government that isn't. That's like a libertarian government that takes care of it's people....it's imaginary...it doesn't exist you fucking loon.

If England has been so fucking awesome since ancient times with all their freedom and liberty that our constitution is merely based on and could never hope to compete with, how come we left the British empire?

Further more why the fuck do you live in such an uncivilized shithole like the US?

 

[KingOrfeo]

What does any of that have to do with the fact that they are still invasive as all fuck?

It makes you (if you are at all rational) question just how bad a thing "invasive" is, that's what. In the UK's case, as opposed to the USSR's, nowadays and for some decades past it generally is not such a bad thing at all, at all.

If England has been so fucking awesome since ancient times with all their freedom and liberty that our constitution is merely based on and could never hope to compete with, how come we left the British empire?

What frightened our FFs was the English ruling class. From The American Way of Strategy, by Michael Lind:

Many people remember vaguely that the American Revolution had something to do with taxes. A few remember that the issue was whether the power to tax lay with London or the American colonies. But this was a surrogate for the real issue: preserving the American way of life.

In the first two-thirds of the eighteenth century, the British colonists in North America developed a distinctive way of life quite different from that of their British cousins. Something like Britain's aristocratic society endured in the South and parts of the Northeast. But in general, colonial society was characterized by a degree of middle-class prosperity and widespread property ownership unknown in any other society in the world. Not only were America's yeoman farmers, artisans, and merchants better off than most Britons and Europeans, but also the cost of government was much lower.

The trouble began in the aftermath of the French and Indian War (Seven Years' War) of 1754-63. The British imperial government insisted that the colonists pay more of the costs of their own defense. The colonists, however, feared that the London parliament was trying to destroy the system of colonial self-government that had grown up in the preceding generations. They remembered that the London parliament had destroyed the Scottish parliament in 1707 (it would eliminate the Irish parliament in 1801). They feared that the same thing was now happening to them. They would pay ever higher taxes, even as their colonial assemblies lost authority to the London parliament. As a result, British North America might come to resemble Ireland or Scotland, impoverished countries where absentee landlords held vast tracts of land and where major decisions were made by well-connected aristocrats and merchants in London with little or no accountability to the people whom they ruled.

<snip>

This history may be familiar but the point is not. For Americans, the independence of the United States from Britain and its organization as a democratic republic was a means to an end, not an end in itself. The end was the safeguarding of the communal right to self-government and the individual liberties that the British settlers in America had already enjoyed for generations under British rule. Americans adopted their own strategy for defending the American way of life against imperial centralization -- independence as a democratic republic -- only because their first choice, self-government within a federal monarchical empire, was rejected. Democratic republicanism and national independence were only two of several possible methods for preserving what by 1776 was the traditional American way of life, characterized by personal liberty, widespread property ownership, low taxes, and an inexpensive military.

N.B.: "Taxes" in this context means something the British government collected to, among other things, pay the salaries of upper-class patronage-sinecure-holders who were rewarded for supporting the government of the moment (and, no, those sinecure-holders bear no resemblance to any modern British or American civil servant or even patronage-jobholder, all of whom actually have to work for a living). American objections were obvious; especially as colonial America was a poor, utilitarian and no-frills country, without any centuries-old accretion of expensive ceremonial and functionless public offices. The vast amounts of taxation-with-representation that we now pay for Social Security and Medicare and so on are subject to a completely different kind of discussion. The vast amounts we now pay for the Defense budget are . . . not a completely different kind of discussion, actually and OTOH; exactly the same kind as above.

Further more why the fuck do you live in such an uncivilized shithole like the US?

Because this is exactly where socialists are needed!

 

[BotanyBoy]

It makes you question just how bad a thing "invasive" is. In the UK's case, as opposed to the USSR's, nowadays and for some decades past it generally is not such a bad thing at all, at all.

That's all I needed to hear...you fucking loon.....and socialist are needed about as badly as tape worms.

 

[KingOrfeo]

That's all I needed to hear...you fucking loon.....and socialist are needed about as badly as tape worms.

From the POV of moderates/centrists, you, who equate the UK with the USSR, are a great deal loonier than I. Look around the world: Most of the industrialized nations are quite open to the idea of social democracy, if not socialism. It existentially-frightens nobody. Except here. And that speaks worse of America than of the rest of the world.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Look around the world. There are a lot more socialists than libertarians; and from the POV of moderates/centrists, you, who equate the UK with the USSR, are a great deal loonier than I.

Who cares if there are more of them? They need more...they will always need more...just like tape worms...

Eventually they will run out of blood...

I didn't' say the UK and USSR were the same jack hole....I said they were both left and both invasive. And they are.....I didn't make any other comparison between the two.

 

[BotanyBoy]

From the POV of moderates/centrists, you, who equate the UK with the USSR, are a great deal loonier than I. Look around the world: Most of the industrialized nations are quite open to the idea of social democracy, if not socialism. It existentially-frightens nobody. Except here. And that speaks worse of America than of the rest of the world.

I didn't equate them on all levels...just the both being left and invasive/nosy bit.

Learn to fucking read...must be that fuck wad socialist school where they gave you a gold star for failing hua?

How does not wanting to shit on the individual for "the greater good" speak worse of america?

Are you fucking high??

 

[KingOrfeo]

Who cares if there are more of them?

You should, to some extent, unless you think everybody is out of step but Botany, which all by itself would make you the loon. (Tip: For every Galileo there are at least a thousand Timecube Guys.)

I didn't' say the UK and USSR were the same jack hole....I said they were both left and both invasive. And they are.....I didn't make any other comparison between the two.

And that is a false comparison which plainly illustrates the nonsensicality of your position.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You should, to some extent, unless you think everybody is out of step but Botany, which all by itself would make you the loon.

Oh look, more presumption!! is that how the left does things? just presume and them mob over those who don't comply with the herd?

Unlike you I don't accept things as good and just, simply b/c the majority says so....that's bull fucking shit. So why should I care if the EU is socialist?

And that is a false comparison which plainly illustrates the nonsensicality of your position.

It's not a false comparison....it's spot the fuck on.

Name one left wing government that isn't invasive....shitting all over the individual for the greater good??

You can't...it doesn't exist...THEY ALL shit on the individual for the greater good.

That is why instead of showing me a left state that preserves individual liberty and rights all you do is just scream "False comparison, false dichotomy, logical fallacy!!" when there is none...it's an observable fact.

 

[dan_c00000]

If England has been so fucking awesome since ancient times with all their freedom and liberty that our constitution is merely based on and could never hope to compete with, how come we left the British empire?

Now botnay you've said a lot of dumb things. You've said a lot of racist things. And you've said a lot of dumb, racist things. But this is just plain fucking stupid.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Now botnay you've said a lot of dumb things.

Won't deny it.

You've said a lot of racist things.

Prove it ya punk bitch...find my Korean/Nsqually ass being racist and post the quote.

Oh you can't? Well then, let me be the first to invite you to kiss my orange ass.

But this is just plain fucking stupid.

Yet you can't answer it? Says a lot about you....

Tell me...if the British way was so fucking perfect then why did we give them the finger?

 

[Liar]

It's not a false comparison....it's spot the fuck on.

Name one left wing government that isn't invasive....shitting all over the individual for the greater good??

You can't...it doesn't exist...THEY ALL shit on the individual for the greater good.

That is why instead of showing me a left state that preserves individual liberty and rights all you do is just scream "False comparison, false dichotomy, logical fallacy!!" when there is none...it's an observable fact.

A firecracker and a nuclear bomb is the same thing, they're both explosives. It's not a false comparison....it's spot the fuck on.

Doesn't mean it's not bloody ridiculous.

 

[BotanyBoy]

A firecracker and a nuclear bomb is the same thing, they're both explosives. It's not a false comparison....it's spot the fuck on.

Uh hua...

Doesn't mean it's not bloody ridiculous.

If that's the case then name one lefty government from the mild socialist state to the iron fisted communist that isn't a totally invasive nanny state there to micromanage your life.

Clue....they are about as common as a thriving, industrial, economic powerhouse libertarian state, they don't fucking exist.

Bloody ridiculous? Who cares, that's the reality of things.

 

[Liar]

Uh hua...



If that's the case then name one lefty government from the mild socialist state to the iron fisted communist that isn't a totally invasive nanny state there to micromanage your life.

"totally invasive nanny state there to micromanage your life" is a subjective value judgment.

Are there more invavive nanny state shennanigans in a socialist leaning state than a libertatian leaning state? Likely. But there's no qualitative difference between the ones we have today and the United States. Only a possible matter of degree.

You asked, name one left wing government that isn't invasive.

Name one government at all that isn't.

 

[akatrex]

That's because your a fucking NUT who belongs under the thumb of your authoritarian ASSFUCKINGHOLE government.

OP....soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


You want a whole lot more money spent on lefty shit....fucky doo....

 

[KingOrfeo]

It's not a false comparison....it's spot the fuck on.

Name one left wing government that isn't invasive....shitting all over the individual for the greater good??

Actually, the only government I know of that is LW but not Communist is Venezuela's. (And, no, the UK's government, which you use as an example for some reason, is not LW.) Venezuela has a poor civil-liberties record, but that is not the kind of "invasive" you are talking about, and there is no other "invasiveness" in the system about which any Venezuelan could legitimately complain.

 

[BotanyBoy]

"totally invasive nanny state there to micromanage your life" is a subjective value judgment.

Are there more invavive nanny state shennanigans in a socialist leaning state than a libertatian leaning state? Likely. But there's no qualitative difference between the ones we have today and the United States. Only a possible matter of degree.

You asked, name one left wing government that isn't invasive.

Name one government at all that isn't.

All true....

And I do like/support a lot of left ideals....I just wish they would apply them with a more conservative philosophy towards individual rights, privacy and spending.

I.E. yes...I support UHC.....do I think we should be buying 500 dollar advils to get it(which we still don't...must need 1,000 dollar advil's for that hua?)? Be forced to get an ID chip shoved in my ass?

Fuck no...that's bullshit.

Education...total fan. Do I think we need to fix our system? Oh big time....

But I don't think it's a funding issue in our primary schools. No...it's a breakdown in the system, quit throwing good money after bad ideas, it hasn't helped in 20 years and it's not going to help. How about giving illegal aliens 100k while we make our kids bury themselves in debt?

No....that's a bunch of bull from the american left is all that is. It's not productive...it doesn't help...

(And, no, the UK's government, which you use as an example for some reason, is not LW.) .

Socialist aren't left wing? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ok now I know you're a fucking nut and not worth my time.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Socialist aren't left wing?

Socialists (as distinct from social democrats) are actually a much smaller factor in UK politics than in Continental politics. Not even the pre-Blair Labour Party was socialist (though it did have its rather socialistic Clause IV in the platform, which nobody seemed to bother about much even before Blair had it deleted). And the Labour Party in its present formation is not very LW at all.

But in any case you were speaking of LW governments, which I read as meaning those which are leftist by essential nature -- not those governments which happen at the moment to be controlled by leftist parties, and might change control in the next election without changing the system as such (which is what you'll find in Europe) -- and by that standard the only non-Communist LW government I can think of is Venezuela's. (And, no, the UK does not count as a "LW government" just because it has UHC.)

 

[BotanyBoy]

Blah blah I'm such a fucking hack I don't think Europe or the UK sits left of center. And I'll dance around it allllll fucking day b/c I'm THAT big of a left wing hack.

FYP...

 

[dan_c00000]

Won't deny it.

Yet you can't answer it? Says a lot about you....

Tell me...if the British way was so fucking perfect then why did we give them the finger?

You would be confused.

 

[KingOrfeo]

FYP...

Face facts, Bot: The UK and the social democracies of Europe are not things you get to use as bad examples.

 

[richard_daily]

What does any of that have to do with the fact that they are still invasive as all fuck? You can't name a single left wing government that isn't. That's like a libertarian government that takes care of it's people....it's imaginary...it doesn't exist you fucking loon.

If England has been so fucking awesome since ancient times with all their freedom and liberty that our constitution is merely based on and could never hope to compete with, how come we left the British empire?

Further more why the fuck do you live in such an uncivilized shithole like the US?

Well, as a small example, the mayor of toronto has most likely been smoking crack, but the privacy laws there prevent the press from doing much to investigate it.

They have fairly strict laws regarding privacy.

 

[richard_daily]

Face facts, Bot: The UK and the social democracies of Europe are not things you get to use as bad examples.

The UKs police state style of surveillance is hardly the model of a free democracy.

 

[dan_c00000]

Face facts, Bot: The UK and the social democracies of Europe are not things you get to use as bad examples.

Bot believes in a country where spying on reporters is wrong if his side is the one getting spied on. Oh and Bush II NEVER EVER did anything like this. Oh wait except he totally did. I'm going to make it large so he can't fake read it.

President Bush signed a secret order in 2002 authorizing the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on U.S. citizens and foreign nationals in the United States, despite previous legal prohibitions against such domestic spying, sources with knowledge of the program said last night.

 

[John Doe]

Could you make that text a bit larger please? I'm having trouble reading it.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Could you make that text a bit larger please? I'm having trouble reading it.

Didn't your Mom ever warn you that if you didn't stop you'd go blind?
I mean, look what happened to Amicus!