How to be a Woman?

[TarnishedPenny]

OK, before anybody answers, I'm posting this as a spin-off of a thread started by a young man who seems a bit confused about how to get where he wants to go: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/how-to-be-a-man.1586994/ I'm not trying to mock him; at least he's smart enough to recognize a problem and look for a solution. Good luck to him, but it raised the parallel question in my mind.

I am emphatically not looking for advice and I'd rather not get the usual 'able to suck a golf ball through forty feet of garden hose' foolishness from adolescent boys.

So, I'd be interested in hearing from the ladies here about what they think makes a woman - ignoring plumbing and such and focusing instead on character and personality traits. What makes a woman a decent woman, a good woman, a person others like to be near? This might be tap-dancing around the concept of 'femininity', but I think there's a difference. IMHO, one doesn't necessarily have to be (without defining it) 'feminine' to be a good woman.

Kevlar and Nomex donned.

 

[Escierto]

Being in a roomful of men is the most boring situation that I can imagine. It’s not because I want or need eye candy. It’s because the conversation of men is so incredibly boring. It’s all about jockeying for position and one upmanship. It makes me want to shoot myself just to escape. My deepest friendships and confidants have always been with women.

 

[Bigboobbabe]

I have been a woman since a few weeks after I was conceived.
I lost my female role model at age 5, raised by my father and brother.
Being a woman is not keeping a clean house, cleaning bathrooms, dinner on the table at 6.

Being a woman is having an exterior that is hard enough to protect and defend what is yours. Your children, your home, your marriage, etc.
And also having a vulnerable underbelly that can feel fear, compassion, hate and pain. And that vulnerable underbelly can also be vulnerable when celebrating success and joy. Know our weakness and our joys means people have the means to hurt us.

As the spouse of MtoF transgender, I have learned that increased estrogen and decreased testosterone are responsible for my spouse being more caring, realizing the meaning of telling family and friends they are appreciated and loved. My spouse is less sarcastic, less caustic, and more nurturing.
And all that happened 18 months into our separation.

 

[tristantrotsky]

I have been a woman since a few weeks after I was conceived.
I lost my female role model at age 5, raised by my father and brother.
Being a woman is not keeping a clean house, cleaning bathrooms, dinner on the table at 6.

Being a woman is having an exterior that is hard enough to protect and defend what is yours. Your children, your home, your marriage, etc.
And also having a vulnerable underbelly that can feel fear, compassion, hate and pain. And that vulnerable underbelly can also be vulnerable when celebrating success and joy. Know our weakness and our joys means people have the means to hurt us.

As the spouse of MtoF transgender, I have learned that increased estrogen and decreased testosterone are responsible for my spouse being more caring, realizing the meaning of telling family and friends they are appreciated and loved. My spouse is less sarcastic, less caustic, and more nurturing.
And all that happened 18 months into our separation.

I admire your strength and intelligence.
You should be proud.

 

[Britva415]

To what extent is there pervasive "inadequate femininity" shaming?

Asking because this is a major thing some males do to each other/to other males. "Man up," "grow a pair," "boys don't cry," "suck my dick," "wimp,"etc. etc. etc.

What are things women say to each other to minimize, question or destroy each other's femininity?

 

[IrisAlthea]

OK, before anybody answers, I'm posting this as a spin-off of a thread started by a young man who seems a bit confused about how to get where he wants to go: https://forum.literotica.com/threads/how-to-be-a-man.1586994/ I'm not trying to mock him; at least he's smart enough to recognize a problem and look for a solution. Good luck to him, but it raised the parallel question in my mind.

I am emphatically not looking for advice and I'd rather not get the usual 'able to suck a golf ball through forty feet of garden hose' foolishness from adolescent boys.

So, I'd be interested in hearing from the ladies here about what they think makes a woman - ignoring plumbing and such and focusing instead on character and personality traits. What makes a woman a decent woman, a good woman, a person others like to be near? This might be tap-dancing around the concept of 'femininity', but I think there's a difference. IMHO, one doesn't necessarily have to be (without defining it) 'feminine' to be a good woman.

Kevlar and Nomex donned.

I think the same things I wrote about in the other thread apply, so I’ll just be lazy and quote myself.

I’m not a man, so there are probably others better suited to tell you how to become one.

What I would look for in a life partner and co-parent though and what I see many people talk about when they talk about manliness, is what I would rather describe as someone who has grown up.
I think that is about some things that are useful regardless of gender, useful for anyone really and I think that might be a place to start.

To me that would mean strength and courage to take responsibility for your actions and for others who are depending on you and also to stand up for yourself and others who need it.

It would also mean self reliance by working on building useful life skills, so you can take care of yourself and others.

I would also say that I think building a world view or perhaps a value base/ ”code of honour” to live by is part of it, because I think it helps with building integrity. I do think that is going to be a work under construction as long as you are still open to learning - something that I think you should stay open to as long as possible.

All of that means doing a lot of stuff you’d rather not in my experience, so discipline, self control and perseverance are useful.
A classic on that topic would be Aurelius’ Meditations, if you want book recommendations. There are a lot of great coming of age stories out there too.

As I wrote there, for me a lot of it is about being an adult.
Ignoring plumbing and such and focusing instead on character and personality traits, as you asked for, that is what I think is important.

The plumbing does come with a few complications in my experience, but how the hormones affect a person and how much they have differs a lot both between different individuals and over time.
For example, I was worried when I had kids that I wouldn’t wake up when they needed me during the night because I tend to sleep like a log, but found that this changed during pregnacy and then turned back mostly to what it was before when the kids were about 3 years old.

 

[IrisAlthea]

To what extent is there pervasive "inadequate femininity" shaming?

Asking because this is a major thing some males do to each other/to other males. "Man up," "grow a pair," "boys don't cry," "suck my dick," "wimp,"etc. etc. etc.

What are things women say to each other to minimize, question or destroy each other's femininity?

I think there is ”inadequate femininity” shaming out there.

What the policed norm is, differs culturally in my experience.
Where I live for example, you will rarely hear someone being shamed for not staying at home with their kids, because few women who belong to the cultural mainstream do, beyond the generous parental leave. Try giving most or even just the bigger part of the parental leave over to the father though, or take a job percieved as too demanding while the kids are too small and you will hear about it and there will be discussions about it that you don’t hear but that will influence your situation.
Staying at home full time for much longer than said parental leave, while not belonging to some cultural minority, will get huge reactions.

Things women will say could be things like
talking extensively about the importance of nursing with someone who doesn’t/didn’t nurse, backhanded or not so backhanded comments on not having children or having too many, about the hours the kids need to be in day care, spending too much or too little time on house keeping, the amount of time spent on fashion and grooming.

In my experience, a lot of this can bite you in the ass from different sides. Talk to much about things that are traditionally feminine interests and you are a terrible pre-Friedan creature or talk too much about traditionally masculine things and you are a ”cool girl” or a ”pick me”.
You will see women who talk about how they prefer a male boss because they are more assertive, undermining their female boss for being too assertive.

 

[stickygirl]

To what extent is there pervasive "inadequate femininity" shaming?

Asking because this is a major thing some males do to each other/to other males. "Man up," "grow a pair," "boys don't cry," "suck my dick," "wimp,"etc. etc. etc.

What are things women say to each other to minimize, question or destroy each other's femininity?

There is, but I don't think that affects the answer to the question, because those might be a cultural characteristic. Same with women slut shaming or bitching at work etc. which are well worn tropes.

The OP asks how to be a woman but without reference to cultural or racial settings. As it happens I don't think it makes much difference because, to quote John Lennon ...

Woman is the nigger of the world
Yes she is, think about it
Woman is the nigger of the world
Think about it, do something about it
We make her paint her face and dance
If she won't be a slave, we say that she don't love us
If she's real, we say she's trying to be a man
While putting her down we pretend that she is above us
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Ah yeah, better scream about it
We make her bear and raise our children
And then we leave her flat for being a fat old mother hen
We tell her home is the only place she should be
Then we complain that she's too unworldly to be our friend
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Oh woman is the slave to the slaves

We insult her everyday on TV
And wonder why she has no guts or confidence
When she's young we kill her will to be free
While telling her not to be so smart we put her down for being so dumb
Woman is the nigger of the world, yes she is
If you don't believe me take a look to the one you're with
Woman is the slave to the slaves
Yes she is, if you believe me, you better scream about it

I'd never read the full lyrics before now. Holy fuck.

To answer the OP adequately, we need to keep in mind every woman, no matter what their colour, creed or culture. I feel under qualified to offer an answer and I'm here to learn. I can only suggest how to be a trans woman - something I can never escape, nor want to.

 

[IrisAlthea]

While putting her down we pretend that she is above us

The whole text is Holy Fuck, yes.

This short line though…
I spent years thinking ”Do you really think I’m so stupid that I don’t see what you are doing?” before I realized that a lot of people don’t see what they themselves are doing or what is done to them and that it hurts everyone, one way or another.

To answer the OP adequately, we need to keep in mind every woman, no matter what their colour, creed or culture.

Or class.
I don’t think it is possible to answer the question in a meaningful way that is relevant for everyone everywhere.

I can only suggest how to be a trans woman - something I can never escape, nor want to.

I think that is the only way any of us can answer it - from our own peronal perspective.
I mean, we are all born with a few set points, hardwired stuff and a collection of quirks. It is what it is and then we get to try to handle ourselves, the assortement of dents we aquire on the way and the world in general, the best way we can.

 

[JessGabriel]

I haven't read all the responses, so I apologize for any redundance. I think men tend to easily compartmentalize while women can draw lines connecting everything. This is both good and bad. I often get frustrated with guys not seeing that one thing impacts another, but I can be annoyingly precise about things like, "I don't want to drive this leg of the trip because I had to do your laundry last week." This is obviously a very trivial example, but you get the idea.

 

[Athalia]

A lot of being a woman, or becoming one, is unlearning shame. We are not like men in that when we hit puberty, we start having periods, and there's a lot of sexual insecurity about that. We're different now, it's inconvenient, and there's a sort of ingrained distaste for menses in many cultures. So we experience a level of shame and embarrass right there. If we're lucky, we have people around us who can stress that it's a normal part of life, something that we'll have to be dealing with for the next forty-some years. So we just deal with it. And we appreciate that it's something that men will never experience, so we have to depend on their tolerance and understanding when the issue comes up. We don't need an equivalent mind-set with other women.

 

[stickygirl]

A lot of being a woman, or becoming one, is unlearning shame. We are not like men in that when we hit puberty, we start having periods, and there's a lot of sexual insecurity about that. We're different now, it's inconvenient, and there's a sort of ingrained distaste for menses in many cultures. So we experience a level of shame and embarrassment right there. If we're lucky, we have people around us who can stress that it's a normal part of life, something that we'll have to be dealing with for the next forty-some years. So we just deal with it. And we appreciate that it's something that men will never experience, so we have to depend on their tolerance and understanding when the issue comes up. We don't need an equivalent mind-set with other women.

I've never been happy depending on the tolerance and understanding of men when it comes to women's issues.

ETA
Sorry if my reply sounds glib, Athalia but the words jumped out at me, and yes #notallmen.

As you highlighted, women have to sober up to the realities of their bodies at an earlier age then men. I'd go further to suggest that because men don't have those insecurities, they never have to consider their place in Life or think about their own mortality... If I say any more I'll turn the thread in men-bashing, which isn't its purpose.

I had a gf who carried her insecurity into the bedroom. We never discussed it openly, but I suspect she couldn't compartmentalise the inconvenience of bleeding against the act of oral sex. She couldn't disconnect the yuckiness of periods from the pleasure of that kind of sex. A site like Lit, entirely focused on hedonism, isn't likely to attract people who are uncomfortable with their bodies, so despite the crowing from women in some quarters, a good percentage of them don't like oral sex. To imagine the rest of world thinks like Litsters is guaranteed to create problems in the real world. The problem then becomes that women are judged as failing if they don't act like porn stars in the bedroom.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

A site like Lit, entirely focused on hedonism, isn't likely to attract people who are uncomfortable with their bodies, so despite the crowing from women in some quarters, a good percentage of them don't like oral sex. To imagine the rest of world thinks like Litsters is guaranteed to create problems in the real world. The problem then becomes that women are judged as failing if they don't act like porn stars in the bedroom.

Two thumbs up!

 

[Escierto]

I've never been happy depending on the tolerance and understanding of men when it comes to women's issues.

ETA
Sorry if my reply sounds glib, Athalia but the words jumped out at me, and yes #notallmen.

As you highlighted, women have to sober up to the realities of their bodies at an earlier age then men. I'd go further to suggest that because men don't have those insecurities, they never have to consider their place in Life or think about their own mortality... If I say any more I'll turn the thread in men-bashing, which isn't its purpose.

I had a gf who carried her insecurity into the bedroom. We never discussed it openly, but I suspect she couldn't compartmentalise the inconvenience of bleeding against the act of oral sex. She couldn't disconnect the yuckiness of periods from the pleasure of that kind of sex. A site like Lit, entirely focused on hedonism, isn't likely to attract people who are uncomfortable with their bodies, so despite the crowing from women in some quarters, a good percentage of them don't like oral sex. To imagine the rest of world thinks like Litsters is guaranteed to create problems in the real world. The problem then becomes that women are judged as failing if they don't act like porn stars in the bedroom.

Whoa! Men don’t have to think about their own mortality? It’s all I think about!

I was taking care of one of my granddaughters who reminded me so much of one of my daughters when she was the same age. Later when I saw my daughter I was happy to see her but sad thinking of all the years that have elapsed. My daughter is in her late thirties and I know that I will never see my granddaughter when she is that age in the future. So thinking about mortality? YES.

 

[stickygirl]

Whoa! Men don’t have to think about their own mortality? It’s all I think about!

I was taking care of one of my granddaughters who reminded me so much of one of my daughters when she was the same age. Later when I saw my daughter I was happy to see her but sad thinking of all the years that have elapsed. My daughter is in her late thirties and I know that I will never see my granddaughter when she is that age in the future. So thinking about mortality? YES.

Sure - you say you're a grandfather. Many years prior to that you were a Jack-the-lad. I doubt you had much time for such introspection between the ages of 14 and 30 but again #notallmen.

Why else does the military recruit young men ( yeah, mostly ) for service? Because they think themselves indestructible. But this is turning what women are to what men are and that isn't the premise of the thread. You're picking on a single word rather the spirit of that paragraph, that I went on to qualify to avoid exactly this kind of comparison. What makes a man isn't a polar opposite to a woman but that's often how these threads end up.

 

[Escierto]

Sure - you say you're a grandfather. Many years prior to that you were a Jack-the-lad. I doubt you had much time for such introspection between the ages of 14 and 30 but again #notallmen.

Why else does the military recruit young men ( yeah, mostly ) for service? Because they think themselves indestructible. But this is turning what women are to what men are and that isn't the premise of the thread. You're picking on a single word rather the spirit of that paragraph, that I went on to qualify to avoid exactly this kind of comparison. What makes a man isn't a polar opposite to a woman but that's often how these threads end up.

I see your point and I didn’t want to hijack but sometimes I read things that are so contrary to my own experience. I am not usually a defender of men either

 

[Goldenfinger]

How to be a good woman, how to be a good man. First, you need to leave the woman and man part out of it. How to be a good person. Then you can debate how to be a good woman or man. In a lot of cases what determines a good woman or man is the needs of the other person? My wife is a good woman for me not for everybody, but for me, I believe I’m a good man for her, but not for everybody. I’d say we are both good people, but the man or woman part is suggestive.

 

[Goldenfinger]

Sure - you say you're a grandfather. Many years prior to that you were a Jack-the-lad. I doubt you had much time for such introspection between the ages of 14 and 30 but again #notallmen.

Why else does the military recruit young men ( yeah, mostly ) for service? Because they think themselves indestructible. But this is turning what women are to what men are and that isn't the premise of the thread. You're picking on a single word rather the spirit of that paragraph, that I went on to qualify to avoid exactly this kind of comparison. What makes a man isn't a polar opposite to a woman but that's often how these threads end up.

I was in the military for 23 years. People who are younger in general are more physically fit than older people. They are more able-bodied. I would say that I am in fairly good shape for almost 50 but the days of me being able to drag a 250 pound person around or run around with 50+ pounds of gear, not gonna happen not without some serious grunt candy the next day.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I'd go further to suggest that because men don't have those insecurities, they never have to consider their place in Life or think about their own mortality...

I can’t say that this fits well with what I have seen with male friends, collegues, partners or family members - especially not the first part.
What you see on the surface can be quite different from what goes on inside though.

As for not thinking about their mortality, we kind of tell them not to, the way we raise boys. People tell their girls to stay safe when they start venturing out in the world, with things like not walking home alone etc, while boys rarely get to hear the same even though where I live the boys are statistically more prone to be subject to violence.
Girls should actually be more afraid at home and with people they know.

Why else does the military recruit young men ( yeah, mostly ) for service? Because they think themselves indestructible.

For some, I would guess they see it as the most reasonable way to find their place in life, because for better or for worse I think many men grew up with a pressure to prove themselves and to shape their future while girls are more seen as destined to fulfill some biological destiny, which is a pressure too of course, just a different kind.
I’d like to think things are changing, but at times I think it’s just a bit less universal than it used to.

I was in the military for 23 years. People who are younger in general are more physically fit than older people. They are more able-bodied. I would say that I am in fairly good shape for almost 50 but the days of me being able to drag a 250 pound person around or run around with 50+ pounds of gear, not gonna happen not without some serious grunt candy the next day.

I would say that there was a feeling of being betrayed by your own body as a girl during puberty, that kind of resembles the ”joys” of middle age where you suddenly have to fight the urge to grunt when getting up from sitting to long on the floor .
I think a lot of people had that feeling based on not growing as tall or strong or having asthma, disabilities etc though. There are so many reasons for feeling inadequate or frail etc in human life, that are not related to gender.

Where I am, the men in my generation were conscripted to military service and while most would have rather done something else with those months of their life, those that were chosen for less prestigeous service are still usually a bit sensitive about it.
Now they brought conscription back for both boys and girls, but just a small percentage is chosen to actually serve. Certain types of young men who are not chosen react very badly, while it’s rare that girls are more than slightly miffed unless they wanted to make a career in the military or police and even then it doesn’t seem to cut as deep.
And this is one of the countries considered most equal.

That was a lot of words to say that I think it is hard to judge how people feel and think by observing their behaviour from the outside, in part because of the huge cultural pressure that regulates our behaviour in different ways.

 

[stickygirl]

I wrote a response but deleted it.

I'm done with defining women by how we are different to men.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I wrote a response but deleted it.

I'm done with defining women by how we are different to men.

Yeah, I saw it and I’m fine with disagreeing.

I’d rather see the individual differences than defining people by what group they belong too.

 

[Athalia]

Yeah, I saw it and I’m fine with disagreeing.

I’d rather see the individual differences than defining people by what group they belong too.

I would like to see that, too. It would be a more ideal world.

But in the present world, women are largely (if not mostly) regarded as baby factories. That's their main reason for existence. It's something that they can do that men can't. While many women (myself among them) have rejected that job, and have chosen to define themselves by their personality and their talents and such, we're sailing against the wind, and we know it.

 

[Plasmaball]

First step is when you have a partner you wait till they sit or lay down and are comfy to then go ask them to get you something.

 

[bestkeptsecret678]

The most appealing women are:

Strong
Confident
Intelligent

Beyond these attributes, anything one might regard as feminine, or not feminine is just noise.

IMO