How to address a Female to male trans person?

[PaxNurgle]

This is an honest question I'm asking, to avoid possible embarassment.
I'm asking this without any predjudice and hoping people will put aside their own, when responding.
I recently had an interaction with a very masculine looking person- military crewcut, baggy clothes, and such, who I honestly thought was a guy, but it wasn't. She got all upset and offended. I honestly thought it was a man, and so I apologized. But at the same time, I have known that most male to female transgenders prefer to be addressed as a female. And I have heard there are some female-male trans people who DO like being thought of as male. So, it's like, there is this minefield of social interaction that I can see people having trouble navigating.

I am asking this without predjudice, as I believe people should be who and what they want to be, so hopefully people don't take this as any dislike or trans-phobic ranting. It was just an awkward situation.

How do you address someone if you don't know what gender they prefer to identify themselves as? Should you just avoid any gender-specific pronouns towards them until you know for sure?

 

[LongDraw]

My wife has a trans friend that is still transitioning to male. I admit it is awkward for me sometimes being raised "old fashioned". I try to address the only by name, or "them" if I'm trying to avoid using a gender identifier, but if I refer to the friend as her, I don't feel guilty either. Biologically they can still get pregnant if they stop the hormone treatment.

Hate me if you will, I've grown plenty thick skin over the years.

 

[tnman03]

This is an honest question I'm asking, to avoid possible embarassment.
I'm asking this without any predjudice and hoping people will put aside their own, when responding.
I recently had an interaction with a very masculine looking person- military crewcut, baggy clothes, and such, who I honestly thought was a guy, but it wasn't. She got all upset and offended. I honestly thought it was a man, and so I apologized. But at the same time, I have known that most male to female transgenders prefer to be addressed as a female. And I have heard there are some female-male trans people who DO like being thought of as male. So, it's like, there is this minefield of social interaction that I can see people having trouble navigating.

I am asking this without predjudice, as I believe people should be who and what they want to be, so hopefully people don't take this as any dislike or trans-phobic ranting. It was just an awkward situation.

How do you address someone if you don't know what gender they prefer to identify themselves as? Should you just avoid any gender-specific pronouns towards them until you know for sure?

Greetings, hello, good morning, how may I help you are all gender-neutral forms of address if you don't know the person's name. These work in professional or social settings. If there's an actual need to address them then offer your name and ask them how they would prefer you to address them.

 

[LongDraw]

I'm really glad that you've decided that you don't respect this man's identity. That's super great of you. Thanks for not being willing to do even the tiniest of things to make the world even slightly better to a person who has so many people hating them just for existing.

Judge all you want. I've directly supported more billionaires than I can count on both hands over the years and never a single complaint, infact I've been requested to remain longer.

I don't go out of my way to embarrass or shame or hurt others. Clearly you don't hold yourself to a similar standard, and that is your right. I don't care as it affects me not.

 

[LongDraw]

And you only care about things that affect you, clearly, and everyone else can fuck themselves, even if doing the right thing costs you nothing. Way to be the problem in the world.

To put it simply... yeah. I was very generous in my younger years, and literally everyone took advantage of me for it. So now, yeah, I couldn't give a flying giant letter F about them. Out of 30 neighbors within 200 feet, I care about 1 of them based on how they treat others and my family.

At this point in my life, the only person I extend generosity towards is, you'd never guess it. My wife's trans friend.

[Removed political/hate speech that does not belong in this thread or this forum. This thread is about being respectful towards a transgender person. If you would like to post opposition to that, take it somewhere else.]

 

[tnman03]

Change is difficult but using the appropriate pron-nouns requested of you by your wife’s friend, who by definition is a person that matters to your wife, is really not a difficult thing. Sometimes we all slip when making changes to pronouns. When that happens you just apologise and move along.

It’s not for you to decide who a person is or needs to live. I am certain you would not like to be misgendered and referred to as she all the time.

I'm in agreement with the above, once you know who the person is and what their preferred method of address is then it's just a matter of repetition. My personal opinions of the entire TG movement have no bearing upon extending basic courtesy to those that I interact with or encounter. Nor are personal opinions a topic to discuss as I feel I should always be reevaluating my own as time progresses. Overall, I just try to listen to the people that I'm with and be a decent person that they know isn't trying to get into their business.

 

[LongDraw]

That's your mic drop?
Wow. "People were mean to me so now I'm mean". I guess that makes sense if you are in fourth grade.

Yeah, already said what I was going to say. Not woke. Don't care.

Change is difficult but using the appropriate pron-nouns requested of you by your wife’s friend, who by definition is a person that matters to your wife, is really not a difficult thing. Sometimes we all slip when making changes to pronouns. When that happens you just apologise and move along.

It’s not for you to decide who a person is or needs to live. I am certain you would not like to be misgendered and referred to as she all the time.

I respect their decision to live their life as they choose just as they respect my decision to live my life the way I choose to. Doesn't mean I have to bend over backwards for their beliefs. Personally, I don't give a damn if someone's going to misgender me because, well, I don't give a flying capital F. I don't need validation from others. If you don't like it, deal with it on your own terms. Not my problem.

Now, that being said, if a woman has some masculine features just because of how they were born, I'm apt to apologize and move on with the conversation at hand, and vice versa for a male. But that's the limit for me and that is my choice. You don't have to respect it, and I don't have to care that you don't respect it. Isn't this a wonderful world we live in with all these freedoms?

 

[twister947]

Wow...

 

[davion2308]

How would I deal with it?

I'd ask each person individually what they prefer. I'd say, "I have no idea what you want to be called. Forgive my ignorance but how do you want me to address you?"

I'll ask and come from a place of love and emotional support and they'd hopefully appreciate the effort. Also, when in doubt: "they/them."

 

[ToPleaseHim]

Nothing like seeing someone doubling down on “I don’t have to respect anyone” and “biologically speaking” and “woke, liberal god” juxtaposed with "I'm not the one expressing hate" and "BUT THE DEMOCRATS." What the actual fuck?


Facts:
1. Scientific evidence supports the existence of transgender people. They exist and it’s not your fucking place to decide they don’t have a right to.
2. Respecting people is EASY! Don’t make assumptions about gender. Use names and gender neutral pronouns (they/them) until they let you know. I do this with someone here that I interact with quite a bit. I have no idea of their gender; I’ve seen others use (he/his and she/her when referring to this person as they’ve made assumptions based on their posts - I don’t make assumptions on anyone, not just transgender individuals. I use they/them until I KNOW.)
3. Don’t be an ass in this forum. I’m going to have some coffee and then decide what to do about your posts, LongDraw. I will edit or delete any hateful content in this thread.

 

[LongDraw]

How would I deal with it?

I'd ask each person individually what they prefer. I'd say, "I have no idea what you want to be called. Forgive my ignorance but how do you want me to address you?"

I'll ask and come from a place of love and emotional support and they'd hopefully appreciate the effort. Also, when in doubt: "they/them."

Now see, you and I aren't that different there. I just go the tough love route instead of coddling them, but yes, I'll use they/them/we/us/etc if possible to sidestep the whole woke expectations.

*Edit2* Just for the record, I'm not the one with hate in my heart. My family fled Russia and Germany to escape the Nazis and the culture you seem to cherish so dearly. Disagree with it, yes, hate it, no. Hate is what Nazis had for my ancestors and almost every single Democrat I know in real life has had for me for not bowing to their beliefs.

[ModEdit: Just for the record, one can hate Nazi Germany AND support transpersons right to exist. These things are not at all related and are not mutually exclusive.]

Response to ModEdit: Just for the record, you have an over abundance of hate speech directed towards conservatives and republican voters in not just your political board, so maybe you should cancel on some of your own group while you're at it. Unless you don't support free speech that is.

TPH: Keeping this here to not further derail the thread. Show ME where I display an abundance of hate speech in this forum (or any of the three forums I moderate). I'm not responsible for the site as a whole, I'm responsible for THIS forum. Also, who is "my group"?

I'm going to be nice and assume you suffer some sort of selective vision:

Wow. "People were mean to me so now I'm mean". I guess that makes sense if you are in fourth grade.

Did I insult anyone's intelligence here? No, I disagreed with their stance and stated that I'm not going to be bothered by someone misidentifying my gender.

And your own statement:

Scientific evidence supports the existence of transgender people. They exist and it’s not your fucking place to decide they don’t have a right to.

Last I checked Two X chromosomes still makes a female and an XY makes a male. And if you want to go further, I have already done extensive research for my novel, part of which is used in the story referring to Chimeras (a medical term) in which you can rarely end up with a person with XXY that can be either male or female on the outside. Note, this is medically termed a chimera, not a transgendered human.

In reference to your question of who I refer to as "your group". I think your cancel culture mentality should answer your own question.

Also

 

[ToPleaseHim]

@PaxNurgle I 100% appreciate you asking this question and how careful you were in the ask. Referring to people how they want to be referred is a small act that makes a big difference. Hopefully the thread is done veering off track.

 

[LongDraw]

My remark was about your moral development, not your intelligence.

Your remark was hateful, but protected by cancel culture. Thank your moderator friend.

 

[LongDraw]

My remark was an analysis of your position. It’s your position that is hateful and your reasoning shows a lack of moral development as per any psychological standard.
The fact that you don’t like either of these things is your own issue.

Actually, my reasoning is based on taking psychology coursework, drafting human resources paperwork for multi-billion dollar corporations and the easy deduction that you made an "emotionally, hate-filled and derogatory comment that served no purpose other than to insult the targeted individual's intelligence when you knew the accusation to be false".

 

[LongDraw]

There you go, looking for any reason to justify being cold hearted because people aren’t as nice to you as you wish they were.
“Peopl are mean so I will be mean” is fourth grader stuff. You can justify it all you like, but your petty little heart knows it’s true. I do smile, though, knowing how miserable you are. That part of me IS petty.

And I am 100% confident that your moderator friend will display her bias to protect that remark.

 

[LongDraw]

My heart breaks for your sense of oppression and how tough your life must be, seeing as the world makes you afraid and uncomfortable, and your anger makes any joy impossible.

I don't need your pity.

 

[twister947]

Just walk away, people.

 

[tnman03]

OK, once the initial topic degenerates into mutual accuse of intolerance, cancel culture, or general meanness then any further useful insights are out the window. Then it’s time to sign out, take a meaningful break and move on to something else. Those are my thoughts on how this has gone so others will do as they choose. Thanks all… I’m out of here.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

Just walk away, people.

Yes, this is clearly a new account for a previous user and he’s getting his rocks off in this thread. No amount of reasoning will work. I recommend placing the troll on ignore or mentally ignoring.

I appreciate so many voices in this thread.

 

[yukonnights]

Well, that was weird. But I did learn how to use the ignore option for the first time. I'm still a bit confused about what "woke culture" really is, but I don't care enough to look it up anyway. Still, I figure being "woke" is better than being "un-woke"?

 

[Bramblethorn]

My wife has a trans friend that is still transitioning to male. I admit it is awkward for me sometimes being raised "old fashioned". I try to address the only by name, or "them" if I'm trying to avoid using a gender identifier, but if I refer to the friend as her, I don't feel guilty either. Biologically they can still get pregnant if they stop the hormone treatment.

So do women who hit menopause stop being female?

Last I checked Two X chromosomes still makes a female and an XY makes a male.

That's the version most folk learn in high school biology. Like many things one learns in high school, it's an approximation, good enough for some purposes but missing some important nuances. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to believe learning stopped the day they graduated high school.

In my experience, the more people know about genetics and biology, the less likely they are to make simplistic claims like that one. For instance, here's an editorial from one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world, discussing why it's more complex than that: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8

It doesn't even make any kind of historical sense, when you think about it. Humans had concepts of gender (male, female, and other options too!) for millennia before we knew chromosomes even existed. We are comfortable saying that Queen Elizabeth I was a woman and that Isaac Newton was a man without the benefit of karyotyping. Chromosomes are a biological phenomenon that correlates with phenotype and with gender, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Even the people who advocate this "XX is female, XY is male" dogma don't really seem to believe it; leastways, I've never met somebody who is in the habit of waiting for a genetic test before deciding whether to call me "sir" or "ma'am".

And if you want to go further, I have already done extensive research for my novel, part of which is used in the story referring to Chimeras (a medical term) in which you can rarely end up with a person with XXY that can be either male or female on the outside. Note, this is medically termed a chimera, not a transgendered human.

I don't know where you researched this, but it's simply wrong. XXY is not chimerism. They can co-occur, but they're not the same thing.

At birth, it's common for a human to have pretty much the same DNA in every cell in their body, give or take occasional transcription errors (and some special-case cells, e.g. those which don't contain DNA at all!).

It's also common that their DNA will contain 46 chromosomes, including either two X chromosomes (46,XX) or one X and one Y (46,XY). XX usually leads to typical female development, breasts, ovaries, vagina etc. XY usually leads to typical male development: penis, testes, more facial hair, deeper voice at puberty, different muscle patterns, etc. etc.

(I'm saying "usually" and "common" above, because there are exceptions to all of these. There are conditions like CAIS and SRY-male which can lead to people with XY developing with a vagina instead of a penis, or to people with XX being born with a penis.)

Sometimes, they might instead end up with two X chromosomes and a Y chromosome: 47,XXY aka Klinefelter syndrome. Klinefelter's typically results in a person who has mostly "male" phenotype (penis, testes etc.) but often with less body hair, larger breasts, and taller than the average 46,XY male. Contra your assertion, I'm not aware of any cases of simple Klinefelter's that present as "female on the outside", but human biology is a complicated thing and there might be something out there that I've missed.

Chimerism, OTOH, occurs when a person has two or more sets of DNA in different cells of their body. This can happen during embryonic development (e.g. two different eggs get fertilised at the same time by two different sperm, resulting in zygotes that might have ended up as twins, but instead they fuse together into one embryo with a mix of different cell types). It can also happen in adult life; at death most women have detectable amounts of XY cells in their brains, because during pregnancy some of the baby's cells cross the placenta and end up in the parent's brain, and getting a bone marrow transplant will leave you producing blood matching the donor's genotype.

A chimera might have a mix of 46,XX and 46,XY. Or they might have two different sets of 46,XX - this has led to oddities like the Lydia Fairchild case, where testing mistakenly identified Fairchild as not being the mother of her own children. Or they could have some other combination. I think there have been cases of chimerism identified where one of the genotypes involved was 47,XXY but that just means it's chimerism and Klinefelter's.

We also don't know whether chimerism actually is rare, or just rarely detected. Unless it causes medical complications or gets involved in weird parentage cases, there's normally no reason we'd be looking for it, and depending on which cells are affected it could be hard to detect even when looking for it.

If you were wrong about this - something that could have been fact-checked with a few minutes in a medical/genetics textbook, or even just Wikipedia - perhaps consider the possibility that your other ideas about sex and gender might not be as well-informed as you think.

 

[Bramblethorn]

By their name.

Yep, and if you don't know that, options like "good morning", "hi there" and "excuse me" can also work well.

There are a few situations where gendered honorifics like "Sir" and "Ma'am" are the normal expectation - some customer service jobs etc. But even there, if you aren't sure which one fits, I think most gender-ambiguous people will be fine with you leaving it out.

 

[NightL]

I recently had an interaction with a very masculine looking person- military crewcut, baggy clothes, and such, who I honestly thought was a guy, but it wasn't. She got all upset and offended. I honestly thought it was a man, and so I apologized.

I'm just curious about the nature of the interaction - was it a casual conversation? How exactly did it become an issue? Was it unappreciated/inappropriate flirting from yourself? Basically were you hitting on the person? Why do I have a suspicion there is a whole lot more to this story?

The only information of the person you have provided was "She got all upset and offended" for you believing them to be male. Still scratching my head how this became a thing - did you slip out with a jolly "show us ya dick"? Is your "female-male trans people" yet another assumption of this person?

Apparently you annoyed them - but exactly why?

 

[LongDraw]

I'm just curious about the nature of the interaction - was it a casual conversation? How exactly did it become an issue? Was it unappreciated/inappropriate flirting from yourself? Basically were you hitting on the person? Why do I have a suspicion there is a whole lot more to this story?

The only information of the person you have provided was "She got all upset and offended" for you believing them to be male. Still scratching my head how this became a thing - did you slip out with a jolly "show us ya dick"? Is your "female-male trans people" yet another assumption of this person?

Apparently you annoyed them - but exactly why?

And this is why I generally go with the logic of "If it sounds like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck".
So if you dress like a man, cut your hair crew cut like a man and generally behave and talk like a man, guess what? You should expect to be referred to as a man, at least until you inform others to the contrary.

 

[fire_breeze]

So do women who hit menopause stop being female?


That's the version most folk learn in high school biology. Like many things one learns in high school, it's an approximation, good enough for some purposes but missing some important nuances. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to believe learning stopped the day they graduated high school.

In my experience, the more people know about genetics and biology, the less likely they are to make simplistic claims like that one. For instance, here's an editorial from one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world, discussing why it's more complex than that: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07238-8

It doesn't even make any kind of historical sense, when you think about it. Humans had concepts of gender (male, female, and other options too!) for millennia before we knew chromosomes even existed. We are comfortable saying that Queen Elizabeth I was a woman and that Isaac Newton was a man without the benefit of karyotyping. Chromosomes are a biological phenomenon that correlates with phenotype and with gender, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Even the people who advocate this "XX is female, XY is male" dogma don't really seem to believe it; leastways, I've never met somebody who is in the habit of waiting for a genetic test before deciding whether to call me "sir" or "ma'am".


I don't know where you researched this, but it's simply wrong. XXY is not chimerism. They can co-occur, but they're not the same thing.

At birth, it's common for a human to have pretty much the same DNA in every cell in their body, give or take occasional transcription errors (and some special-case cells, e.g. those which don't contain DNA at all!).

It's also common that their DNA will contain 46 chromosomes, including either two X chromosomes (46,XX) or one X and one Y (46,XY). XX usually leads to typical female development, breasts, ovaries, vagina etc. XY usually leads to typical male development: penis, testes, more facial hair, deeper voice at puberty, different muscle patterns, etc. etc.

(I'm saying "usually" and "common" above, because there are exceptions to all of these. There are conditions like CAIS and SRY-male which can lead to people with XY developing with a vagina instead of a penis, or to people with XX being born with a penis.)

Sometimes, they might instead end up with two X chromosomes and a Y chromosome: 47,XXY aka Klinefelter syndrome. Klinefelter's typically results in a person who has mostly "male" phenotype (penis, testes etc.) but often with less body hair, larger breasts, and taller than the average 46,XY male. Contra your assertion, I'm not aware of any cases of simple Klinefelter's that present as "female on the outside", but human biology is a complicated thing and there might be something out there that I've missed.

Chimerism, OTOH, occurs when a person has two or more sets of DNA in different cells of their body. This can happen during embryonic development (e.g. two different eggs get fertilised at the same time by two different sperm, resulting in zygotes that might have ended up as twins, but instead they fuse together into one embryo with a mix of different cell types). It can also happen in adult life; at death most women have detectable amounts of XY cells in their brains, because during pregnancy some of the baby's cells cross the placenta and end up in the parent's brain, and getting a bone marrow transplant will leave you producing blood matching the donor's genotype.

A chimera might have a mix of 46,XX and 46,XY. Or they might have two different sets of 46,XX - this has led to oddities like the Lydia Fairchild case, where testing mistakenly identified Fairchild as not being the mother of her own children. Or they could have some other combination. I think there have been cases of chimerism identified where one of the genotypes involved was 47,XXY but that just means it's chimerism and Klinefelter's.

We also don't know whether chimerism actually is rare, or just rarely detected. Unless it causes medical complications or gets involved in weird parentage cases, there's normally no reason we'd be looking for it, and depending on which cells are affected it could be hard to detect even when looking for it.

If you were wrong about this - something that could have been fact-checked with a few minutes in a medical/genetics textbook, or even just Wikipedia - perhaps consider the possibility that your other ideas about sex and gender might not be as well-informed as you think.

There are a million reasons why I adore you so, Bramblethorn. This exquisite post has become the million and first reason

I started to write a complementary post on gender as socially, culturally, and historically defined, pulling in Butler (as much as I'm annoyed by them, but their 'gender as performance' is brilliant), but saw that the primary target would probably miss the nuances, so meh.

To the OP: You address the individual by the name they tell you to call them, and if you are talking about them, and don't know their gender or pronoun, then 'them'. As a cis-female who very much identifies and presents herself as female, I would be grateful to be talked about as 'they/them' if someone wasn't sure if I was a woman (I have an ethnic name that presents itself as 'male' in the Western world).
If you work in an environment where honourifics are standard, then you'll know what to call them, regardless of their gender.