Dual Level Writing

[NOIRTRASH]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes

JULIAN JAYNES

 

[legerdemer]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Jaynes

JULIAN JAYNES

We haven't evolved much in ten thousand years. Julian Jaynes claimed humans were functionally psychotic until 500BC. I think he was a crazy optimist. What we call maturity (our better angels) barely contains our demons. That's the short answer. Its the ground floor of what I write. Nice is a thin veneer over the abyss.

Thanks much, I will read about him and his work.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Thanks much, I will read about him and his work.

Jaynes made a good case for his theory because gods vanish from Earth around 500BC. Before 500BC gods were everywhere. Heaven replaced Olympus.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

I find this an odd outlook for porn/erotic authors.

It's like you go into a strip joint, and everything about the décor has to look good. Décor only gets you a few extra points. If some chick is shaking her gorgeous boobs in your face, you're generally looking at the boobs, and reacting accordingly.

Why ma'am, I think er, yes, you have wonderful "technique."

There's something very odd when a critique of "writing tools" is applied to erotica. Especially when you have say a really raunchy juicy sex scene and everyone's there only talking about the metaphors....

Personally, I always read for erotic content, and that's what I respond to and comment on generally.

He jerked his pants down. "Suck it bitch."

"Yeah, baby." She sucked his hard meat frantically.

"Oh yeah baby take it a little deeper... mmm, good. Gonna come... yeah coming!"

He splattered her face with thick jism.

She licked it up. "Yum."

Anyone hard or wet yet? I'm guessing not. Given an hour I could make that scene at least erotic; given a week I could make you care about the characters, maybe. As is, it has "erotic content", so why is no one aroused?

Because it's stupid, contextless, meaningless description. There's nothing there to hook into the human parts of you. It's dumb writing, literally. It's not speaking to anyone.

To continue CF's analogy of a strip club, if I walked in and the blonds on stage were shaped ok, but the place was strewn with garbage and vomit, the drinks tasted of turpentine and the waitress spilled my meal on the floor, and gathered it back up and put it in front of me... do you think I'm staying?

I mean if poor dialog, unlikely characters doing repetitive things and meandering sentences don't interfere with your pleasure, you're in some sense lucky; lots of Literotica is going to work for you. Me, I'll take the black leather couch, my martini chilled and dry, and the stripper (fresh and pretty, no makeup) kneeling and kissing my foot before she shakes it for me. If your story makes me feel like trailer trash in a cheap whore house instead of James fucking Bond, why am I investing my time?

 

[sr71plt]

Anyone hard or wet yet?

I believe that does it for a high number of readers coming to (and on) Literotica, yes. Have you looked through the thread on "help finding stories" on the Feedback board.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

Anyone hard or wet yet? I'm guessing not. Given an hour I could make that scene at least erotic; given a week I could make you care about the characters, maybe. As it, it has "erotic content", so why is no one aroused?

Because it's stupid, contextless, meaningless description. There's nothing there to hook into the human parts of you. It's dumb writing, literally. It's not speaking to anyone.

To continue CF's analogy of a strip club, if I walked in and the blonds on stage were shaped ok, but the place was strewn with garbage and vomit, the drinks tasted of turpentine and the waitress spilled my meal on the floor, and gathered it back up and put it in front of me... do you think I'm staying?

I mean if poor dialog, unlikely characters doing repetitive things and meandering sentences don't interfere with your pleasure, you're in some sense lucky; lots of Literotica is going to work for you. Me, I'll take the black leather couch, my martini chilled and dry, and the stripper (fresh and pretty, no makeup) kneeling and kissing my foot before she shakes it for me. If your story makes me feel like trailer trash in a cheap whore house instead of James fucking Bond, why am I investing my time?

Because.. Unfortunately... Some of the readership is straight out of tha trailer.

Fortunately, we have authors that peddle their drug.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

I agree that the evidence definitely suggests that these writers earned their living writing, and cared much about their success.

I think that this particular question has been a source of confusion on this thread. Yes, artists can and do get paid for what they produce. That's really not an issue. The question is one of intent.

A real artist is creating a world, and then asking him- or herself whether it is good. There may be erotica in that world, or silliness, but the question must still be asked and answered.

BTW, I have had the experience of being an "entertainer" as a professional musician. I have performed songs that I did not enjoy by the Bee Gees or KC and the Sunshine Band, because someone wanted to hear them and they were willing to pay. I won't be going back to that. It's too much like being a hooker.

 

[TxRad]

I think that this particular question has been a source of confusion on this thread. Yes, artists can and do get paid for what they produce. That's really not an issue. The question is one of intent.

A real artist is creating a world, and then asking him- or herself whether it is good. There may be erotica in that world, or silliness, but the question must still be asked and answered.

BTW, I have had the experience of being an "entertainer" as a professional musician. I have performed songs that I did not enjoy by the Bee Gees or KC and the Sunshine Band, because someone wanted to hear them and they were willing to pay. I won't be going back to that. It's too much like being a hooker.

The same applies to writers. Some more than others.

Whether someone is an entertainer or an artist, whether they are mediocre, good, or excellent, is usually doled out by people after the person in question is dead. What people is the interesting question and why them. Usually they are the ones who study the art. The ones with degrees. They may or may not dabble in the same subject they study. They may not even be good at it.

One scholar loves Shakespeare, one hates him. Some say he's a genius, some say he stole everything he wrote. So who is right? Both and all of course. History is written by the living who weren't there.

Applying things like dual levels to erotica is a waste of time. Especially on a free site that is open to all. Most are scrolling with one hand and busy with the other. How well it moves their orgasm along is the depth of their reading. So write it deep or write it shallow, it all gets the same scrutiny.

 

[rjordan]

To continue CF's analogy of a strip club, if I walked in and the blonds on stage were shaped ok, but the place was strewn with garbage and vomit, the drinks tasted of turpentine and the waitress spilled my meal on the floor, and gathered it back up and put it in front of me... do you think I'm staying?

I take it you wouldn't like Jumbo's Clown Room In Hollywood.

rj

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Because.. Unfortunately... Some of the readership is straight out of tha trailer.

Fortunately, we have authors that peddle their drug.

Makes me think of the appeal of primitive folk art by untrained "artists." No, they would never be mistaken for Picasso or whomever, and their work isn't as appreciated by me as, say, a Monet, but it sure works for some people. Same is true of pop art or something like a velvet Elvis. Not for me, but someone's doing okay reproducing it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

One of my nephews did his PhD on British Victorian novelists. I lent him a few hundred appropriate books from my extensive library.

The bad or poor authors are forgotten even if they were popular in their era. They are more available now because of Project Gutenberg and the internet than they were in the 1980s, but they are still rubbish.

The good authors are remembered and reprinted.

Amen to this. Even the "good" authors often benefit greatly from history's filtering. I'd be very surprised if anybody here could name the author of "The Primrose Path", "The Snake's Pass", "The Shoulder of Shasta", and "Lady Athlyne" without looking it up; he wrote fifteen books but is only famous for one of them.

Except for the phrase "It was a dark and stormy night..." who would read or remember Bulwer-Lytton? Yet he nearly outsold Dickens.

History has been a little hard on Bulwer-Lytton. That's certainly the quote that people associate with him, but he also gave us lines like "the pen is mightier than the sword" and "the almighty dollar"; people just don't remember that he was the author of those.

 

[NotWise]

Amen to this. Even the "good" authors often benefit greatly from history's filtering. I'd be very surprised if anybody here could name the author of "The Primrose Path", "The Snake's Pass", "The Shoulder of Shasta", and "Lady Athlyne" without looking it up; he wrote fifteen books but is only famous for one of them.

So I had to look that up. I was surprised.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

You contradict yourself. "Given an hour I could make this scene at least erotic." Therefore it has no erotic content. It has content, yes, but I said erotic content and erotic mindset. This passage has none.

Of course this is getting into what constitutes "erotic" for me. Whatever it is, I don't think "mastery of writing tools" is going to do much to help you with that. Not if the erotic content and feeling and know-how is not there.

I hate continuing the analogy this way, but so be it.

You can, of course, walk into the most beautiful strip club on the planet. A FAMOUS one you're heard a lot about. The build up is incredible, the place is gorgeous, but alas . . . the strippers are all over 300 lbs. [My apologies.] Conversely, the pigpen down the street has the hottest chicks you've ever seen. Where do you think you'll go?

Perhaps a restaurant is a better analogy. A restaurant can be amazing in every little detail, except, what they're serving you to eat is bland and tasteless crap. It happens.

There is as much "craft" and "technique" in the erotic feelings someone has to offer as there is in the way they write them.

Quite often, some noob or nobody shows up on this site with raw, sizzling hotness to offer. It may NOT be written well. The "tools" may be lacking, but the erotic sentiment, whatever it is making that the most delicious thing you've ever eaten, is not. It's there.

There's only so much good writing can do, if the feelings and imagination are lacking.

Anyone hard or wet yet? I'm guessing not. Given an hour I could make that scene at least erotic; given a week I could make you care about the characters, maybe. As is, it has "erotic content", so why is no one aroused?

Because it's stupid, contextless, meaningless description. There's nothing there to hook into the human parts of you. It's dumb writing, literally. It's not speaking to anyone.

To continue CF's analogy of a strip club, if I walked in and the blonds on stage were shaped ok, but the place was strewn with garbage and vomit, the drinks tasted of turpentine and the waitress spilled my meal on the floor, and gathered it back up and put it in front of me... do you think I'm staying?

I mean if poor dialog, unlikely characters doing repetitive things and meandering sentences don't interfere with your pleasure, you're in some sense lucky; lots of Literotica is going to work for you. Me, I'll take the black leather couch, my martini chilled and dry, and the stripper (fresh and pretty, no makeup) kneeling and kissing my foot before she shakes it for me. If your story makes me feel like trailer trash in a cheap whore house instead of James fucking Bond, why am I investing my time?

 

[lovecraft68]

Anyone hard or wet yet? I'm guessing not. Given an hour I could make that scene at least erotic; given a week I could make you care about the characters, maybe. As is, it has "erotic content", so why is no one aroused?

Because it's stupid, contextless, meaningless description. There's nothing there to hook into the human parts of you. It's dumb writing, literally. It's not speaking to anyone.

To continue CF's analogy of a strip club, if I walked in and the blonds on stage were shaped ok, but the place was strewn with garbage and vomit, the drinks tasted of turpentine and the waitress spilled my meal on the floor, and gathered it back up and put it in front of me... do you think I'm staying?

I mean if poor dialog, unlikely characters doing repetitive things and meandering sentences don't interfere with your pleasure, you're in some sense lucky; lots of Literotica is going to work for you. Me, I'll take the black leather couch, my martini chilled and dry, and the stripper (fresh and pretty, no makeup) kneeling and kissing my foot before she shakes it for me. If your story makes me feel like trailer trash in a cheap whore house instead of James fucking Bond, why am I investing my time?

That example does nothing for me either and the word 'meat' will speed bump me off it totally.

As for strip clubs...there are some serious sleazy pits here in RI and a couple of very high end ones and yeah the sleaze is noticeable and unsettling, but only because the dancers are as well, these places have the sterotype 'habit' strippers. The better ones have the coeds and 'professionals' who have a damn portfolio for their investments.

But sometimes sleaze is its own turn on so depends on the person.

Stroke rules here. It may not rule you or me as far as tastes go, but those stories hammer the shit out of much more developed stories the majority of the time. So we here seem in the minority.

But I agree with CF's point of it being discussed as if it were an English lit class. If you want to write deeper stories that's great, but the talk of style and metaphors and gushing over concepts and "I see what you did there" is to pretentious to me and smacks of ego and needing that ego stroked. That type doesn't want "You're story was hot or 'great story' they want a NY times review.

We write our own way and those ways differ and people here are good at different things they want to be good at and I have no issue with people aiming for more in their stories than sex, I do that, but I do have issue with pretentiousness and the 'I'm better than you" that comes with it.

 

[SecondCircle]

You contradict yourself. "Given an hour I could make this scene at least erotic." Therefore it has no erotic content. It has content, yes, but I said erotic content and erotic mindset. This passage has none.

Of course this is getting into what constitutes "erotic" for me. Whatever it is, I don't think "mastery of writing tools" is going to do much to help you with that. Not if the erotic content and feeling and know-how is not there.

I hate continuing the analogy this way, but so be it.

You can, of course, walk into the most beautiful strip club on the planet. A FAMOUS one you're heard a lot about. The build up is incredible, the place is gorgeous, but alas . . . the strippers are all over 300 lbs. [My apologies.] Conversely, the pigpen down the street has the hottest chicks you've ever seen. Where do you think you'll go?

Perhaps a restaurant is a better analogy. A restaurant can be amazing in every little detail, except, what they're serving you to eat is bland and tasteless crap. It happens.

There is as much "craft" and "technique" in the erotic feelings someone has to offer as there is in the way they write them.

Quite often, some noob or nobody shows up on this site with raw, sizzling hotness to offer. It may NOT be written well. The "tools" may be lacking, but the erotic sentiment, whatever it is making that the most delicious thing you've ever eaten, is not. It's there.

There's only so much good writing can do, if the feelings and imagination are lacking.

In your examples of the strip club here? I'd visit neither of them. Well crafted but not hot is as bad as hot elements but terrible framework.

"Penthouse Letters" are fine. They can be arousing. And sure that's all that's "needed". But likewise, there's only so much tab A and slot B can do before it slips into the sea of mediocrity.

I agree with some of what you say, but I don't think it's finite. For example keep that logic going. You don't 'need' deeper meaning to write something hot, or to write people fucking. Keep going though. Why develop the characters? We don't need to know who they are, do we? The acts they commit are hot enough right? Why build setting? A generic bedroom "is enough" is it not? Hell, do they need to even talk? Why bother crafting dialogue?

You can work this backwards all the way to a simple "this girl I banged" story told at a bar, and because taste is in the eye of the beholder, someone will still find it hot.

So why use these writing tools to make it taste better and better?

Why not?

 

[lovecraft68]

Because.. Unfortunately... Some of the readership is straight out of tha trailer.

Fortunately, we have authors that peddle their drug.

So anyone who has for lack of a better term 'porno' tastes and likes heaven forbid, 'just sex' is trailer trash.

I don't care for flat out porn myself, but I don't insult it, its just not my thing for reading or writing purposes.

But your comment is insulting, offensive and says it all when it comes to my point on how some here think they're so much better than the 'dregs' that come here.

You-or anyone else touting their literary merit-are not better than anyone else here.

 

[sr71plt]

I agree that writing skills can only go so far in replacing actual experience and imagination.

 

[AlwaysHungry]

Seeing as how it's Christmas, may I propose a temporary lull in the fussin' and fightin', so that people may take five minutes to read this?

Trust me, it's some fine writing.

 

[lovecraft68]

Seeing as how it's Christmas, may I propose a temporary lull in the fussin' and fightin', so that people may take five minutes to read this?

Trust me, it's some fine writing.

Starts out depressing enough to be good(and seasonal) I'll read it all later.

 

[lovecraft68]

I agree that writing skills can only go so far in replacing actual experience and imagination.

That's true. Sometimes I'll read something involving a particular fetish and think, "Yeah, they've been there done that." other times its "They have no clue what they're talking about"

I wonder at the reasoning for writing what you have no experience in. Is it a challenge perhaps? If it is, you would think they would research it.

But then again research and doing when it comes to sexual escapades doesn't always cut it, nothing like real experience anyway.

 

[sr71plt]

Seeing as how it's Christmas, may I propose a temporary lull in the fussin' and fightin', so that people may take five minutes to read this?

Trust me, it's some fine writing.

Yep, the classic "nailed it" Christmas story. And notice how short it is (2,000 words--less than three-quarters of one Lit. page). And how it doesn't drone on telling you how the rest of their day and life went.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

That's true. Sometimes I'll read something involving a particular fetish and think, "Yeah, they've been there done that." other times its "They have no clue what they're talking about"

I wonder at the reasoning for writing what you have no experience in. Is it a challenge perhaps? If it is, you would think they would research it.

But then again research and doing when it comes to sexual escapades doesn't always cut it, nothing like real experience anyway.

I was banned from a site where I LOL'd at virgins who wrote porn.

 

[Nathan_Brazil]

I was banned from a site where I LOL'd at virgins who wrote porn.

You may have to send me a link for that.

 

[Handley_Page]

Seeing as how it's Christmas, may I propose a temporary lull in the fussin' and fightin', so that people may take five minutes to read this?

Trust me, it's some fine writing.

Oh, it most assuredly IS.
It's a tale that gets to your guts, and wrenches them.

There are a few authors in Lit who are able to write in a similar vein [I've had the pleasure of reading them].

Thank you for finding that.

 

[Hypoxia]

Oh, it most assuredly IS.
It's a tale that gets to your guts, and wrenches them.

There are a few authors in Lit who are able to write in a similar vein [I've had the pleasure of reading them].

Thank you for finding that.

But, no blowjobs! No looking over her shoulder and whispering, "Fuck me!" No anal lubes or BBCs! What good is that?