Derivative works

[Marvin2017]

An author I followed wrote a story with 2 sequels. I thoroughly enjoyed the stories, but he ended them in a spot where another sequel would bring closure to the work. I emailed him stating I had written a ‘final’ chapter. This work would acknowledge the story, plot and characters as his, giving him full credit. He wrote back saying he was honored someone would do this, but never said whether it could be submitted or published. That was in 2006. Fast forward to 2023. I’ve had no response or contact with him after multiple attempts. He has published in 2012, but nothing since. To make a short story long, can I submit this to Lit, confident it will be published and legal?

 

[Bramblethorn]

If you don't have his permission, it's very likely Laurel (the moderator) will reject it. The onus is on writers of follow-up works to get that permission, not on the original author to give a refusal.

 

[HeyAll]

Yes it should be okay.

1) Saying he'd be 'honored' is enough of an approval. That you'd publish it is obviously implied.

2) It's not like he's going to complain and have it taken down.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Yes it should be okay.

1) Saying he'd be 'honored' is enough of an approval. That you'd publish it is obviously implied.

OP said "was" honoured, not "would be" honoured. The distinction is important here.

"Was honoured" refers to something that's already happened (i.e. OP liking the story enough to write a sequel) as vs. "would be honoured" which refers to something that hadn't yet happened (i.e. publishing that sequel).

I think there are a lot of authors out there who'd be chuffed to hear that somebody loved their work enough to write a follow-up - and might well say so - without necessarily being keen for them to publish that follow-up.

 

[AchtungNight]

If this ever happened to me, I would want to feel honored. I frequently have real life issues that inhibit me from writing and sometimes character or plot arcs don’t go to everyone’s liking. Fan enthusiasm is usually a good thing.

At the same time, I would want to review any fanfic of my writing before it gets published and prefer that it not do something I would never do, like include kinks in my characters I didn’t give them and would not support or worse. Please acknowledge that it’s not canon reality, at the least, writers, you hear?

If readers want to write fanfics of my stories- this is coming from a fanfic writer- they may do so. Lit and other platforms can publish their stories if their owners are ok with that. But people better a) give me proper credit and b) let me reserve the right to deny their work is canon with my ficverse if I deem it so. The majority of the celebrities I write about would never claim to be my fans. Or possibly even know me. I am the same way to a degree. And I’m always alert for possible trouble fans. Annie Wilkes, John Hinkley, and similar types can buzz off.

 

[ElectricBlue]

An author I followed wrote a story with 2 sequels. I thoroughly enjoyed the stories, but he ended them in a spot where another sequel would bring closure to the work. I emailed him stating I had written a ‘final’ chapter. This work would acknowledge the story, plot and characters as his, giving him full credit. He wrote back saying he was honored someone would do this, but never said whether it could be submitted or published. That was in 2006. Fast forward to 2023. I’ve had no response or contact with him after multiple attempts. He has published in 2012, but nothing since. To make a short story long, can I submit this to Lit, confident it will be published and legal?

Did you explicitly ask permission to publish your ending?

This all sounds a tad vague. I'd err on the side of "no permission given."

 

[SimonDoom]

I feel strongly that one should NOT write a sequel or other derivative work of another Literotica author's work without clear, express approval. The author saying he was "honoured" definitely was not clear and express approval. One could interpret it that way, but it's ambiguous.

When I asked Laurel via PM what the policy on derivative works was, she wrote this:

Our policy on works derivative of other Literotica author's creations is: to avoid conflicts after posting we ask that you please contact the original author and get permission before submitting and let readers know in the intro to the story that you have such permission. Also, please credit the original author's story. If the original author has given blanket permission within the text of the original story, then the continuing author does not need to ask for specific permission. However, if the original author requests that we remove any derivative work, we will remove it - even if permission was given previously.

 

[8letters]

An author I followed wrote a story with 2 sequels. I thoroughly enjoyed the stories, but he ended them in a spot where another sequel would bring closure to the work. I emailed him stating I had written a ‘final’ chapter. This work would acknowledge the story, plot and characters as his, giving him full credit. He wrote back saying he was honored someone would do this, but never said whether it could be submitted or published. That was in 2006. Fast forward to 2023. I’ve had no response or contact with him after multiple attempts. He has published in 2012, but nothing since. To make a short story long, can I submit this to Lit, confident it will be published and legal?

Publish it! It's absolutely within the site rules to do so. See the note from Laurel in SimonDoom's post. My take on the legality is that if FanFiction is legal, then your story is legal. And FanFiction is accepted as legal.

 

[SimonDoom]

Publish it! It's absolutely within the site rules to do so. See the note from Laurel in SimonDoom's post. My take on the legality is that if FanFiction is legal, then your story is legal. And FanFiction is accepted as legal.

That's not quite right. Fanfiction is not accepted as "legal." It's accepted as a matter of practice, which is something different. As a matter of law, there's a great deal of fanfiction that, if challenged, probably would be found to be in violation of copyright law. Copyright owners nevertheless choose not to challenge it, for the practical reason that fanfiction probably adds value to their works by increasing the net appeal. But that's a far cry from saying that fanfiction is legal.

I think, too, that the ethics of creating unauthorized derivative works of fellow Literotica authors is different from writing unauthorized derivative works of famous authors. We are part of a community here and we should be respectful of other members of the community. The default should be NOT to create derivative works unless we have clear permission to do so. That's Laurel's position. I don't see how you reconcile Laurel's position with yours.

 

[Omenainen]

I wouldn’t take any advice 8letters gives on using the work of others.

 

[Euphony]

"I agree this event was lovely. We should maybe do dinner some evening."

The VERY NEXT EVENING...

 

[8letters]

That's not quite right. Fanfiction is not accepted as "legal." It's accepted as a matter of practice, which is something different. As a matter of law, there's a great deal of fanfiction that, if challenged, probably would be found to be in violation of copyright law. Copyright owners nevertheless choose not to challenge it, for the practical reason that fanfiction probably adds value to their works by increasing the net appeal. But that's a far cry from saying that fanfiction is legal.

I had always considered fanfiction to be a blatant copyright violation, and Literotica publishing fanfiction meant that the site didn’t take copyright violations seriously. After educating myself on the issue, I now see that fanfiction has become an accepted fair use. The rules on fair use from the US copyright law, section 107:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

There are no court rulings on fanfiction, and there is an informal system in place that controls it. My guess is that there are no court rulings on fanfiction as the big copyright holders are afraid they will lose. They would lose because (1) fanfiction is noncommercial and (2) the copyright holders cannot demonstrate a negative effect of the value of the copyrighted work. In fact, fanfiction helps to maintain interest in a copyrighted work. With every new fanfiction story being published, the chances of the copyright holders losing increases. I think we are well past the tipping point where any court would rule against fanfiction being legal. Trademark violation has an even bigger chance of losing if brought to court for fanfiction as long as the fanfiction creator doesn’t try to make it look like the trademark owner is responsible for the fanfiction.

The rules for fair use apply equally to the stories on Literotica. No fair use of a Literotica story is going to have a negative impact on the value of it as it has a zero value.

I think, too, that the ethics of creating unauthorized derivative works of fellow Literotica authors is different from writing unauthorized derivative works of famous authors. We are part of a community here and we should be respectful of other members of the community. The default should be NOT to create derivative works unless we have clear permission to do so. That's Laurel's position. I don't see how you reconcile Laurel's position with yours.

Is it ethical? There's lots of stuff that's published on Literotica that I don't consider ethical. Cue Lovecraft68's rants on this subject.

What the OP asked is would his sequel of another story be published and be legal. I've already discussed the legal aspect. On getting it published, I took Laurel's position to be that an author can publish a story derived from another author's story if
1. You attempt to contact the original author and get their permission
2. If the author doesn't respond, you can publish your derivative work if, at the start of your story, you credit the original author's story and state that you attempted to contact them and got no response
3. If the original author requests that your derivative work be taken down, it will be taken down

That position to me is consistent with what FinishTheDamnStory did.

 

[Omenainen]

On getting it published, I took Laurel's position to be that an author can publish a story derived from another author's story if
1. You attempt to contact the original author and get their permission
2. If the author doesn't respond, you can publish your derivative work if, at the start of your story, you credit the original author's story and state that you attempted to contact them and got no response
3. If the original author requests that your derivative work be taken down, it will be taken down

That position to me is consistent with what FinishTheDamnStory did.

Based on Simon’s post this is NOT Laurel’s position. Her position is to ask for permission and not publish if you don’t get a permission.

Really, your views on what is fair use of others intellectual rights are so… eccentric that I’m aghast you’d advise others on these kind of questions.

 

[8letters]

Based on Simon’s post this is NOT Laurel’s position. Her position is to ask for permission and not publish if you don’t get a permission.

Really, your views on what is fair use of others intellectual rights are so… eccentric that I’m aghast you’d advise others on these kind of questions.

If that's true, then how did all the FinishTheDamnStory's stories get published? How did other stories that are re-writes of an author's story get published?

I'm not talking about my views. I'm talking about what I believe are the views of Laurel based on what she has published.

 

[AwkwardMD]

For the new, 8letters has plagiarized another Lit author. He then removed all of his stories, at the behest of no one, and is reuploading them slowly after some "re-edits".

Lit doesn’t have the ability to add Community Notes, so consider this your warning that his support for this position potentially has less to do with you than it does for lowering everyone's standards until we all forget what he did. Muddying the waters, so to speak.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

My question should not necessarily effect your choice, but I think it is relevant.

If you post it, and the author HATES it, and immediately emails Laurel, what is the worst that will happen?

She will take your story down... and... that it, right?

I don't see how in a world where things like fan fiction and DEEP FAKE PORN exists, we're even having this discussion.

How is it immoral to take copy-righted characters and write original, non-canon stories with them for free?

---

For the record, I do not write fanfiction about copyrighted characters, and I've never written a fan work without the expressed written consent of the original author.

Rescuing the Fallen is a fanwork set in a horrifying dystopian AU. And I messaged the original author in spite of the fact that they invited spin-offs in the original story's afterward. It turns out original author is a big fan of my spin-off.

Why did I take such care? Just to be polite.
If I wasn't worried about possibly upsetting them, I'd just do it. And if they hated it, they could ask Laurel to remove it.

Plagiarism is horrible, but adding to an existing world after crediting the original author...? That seems 100% fine to me. As long as you're okay with the possibility that your story could be taken down. Which is also 100% fine.

 

[Omenainen]

If that's true, then how did all the FinishTheDamnStory's stories get published? How did other stories that are re-writes of an author's story get published?

I’m not familiar with FinishTheDamnStory or others who meddle with stories that are not theirs. Something might slip past Laurel, especially if it’s not stated in any way that this is a continuation of some other story (but then how would the readers know?). I find that whole idea somehow bizarre, because how would readers ever find the story? Are they adding a comment to the original saying “here’s mine come see?”

I prefer to write my own stories, so I’m not willing to test, but I hope if someone posts a story saying “this is a continuation of this and that story and I don’t have a permission but I just felt like I wanted to continue it” that it would get rejected.

Sheesh, I can’t believe I’m contemplating adding “for fuck’s sake, don’t go stealing my stuff” clause to my author profile, like shouldn’t that be the default? And no, if anyone would go ripping off my characters without asking for permission I wouldn’t consider it “fan fiction.” There’s a difference between being inspired by someone’s work to write something of your own, and stealing someone’s story and running off with it. If anyone struggles with the difference then they should stick to only writing original pieces.

 

[SimonDoom]

If that's true, then how did all the FinishTheDamnStory's stories get published? How did other stories that are re-writes of an author's story get published?

I'm not talking about my views. I'm talking about what I believe are the views of Laurel based on what she has published.

I think you repeatedly are making the error of assuming that because people do something and get away with it, it's legal, accepted, and ethical. You cannot assume that.

Stuff gets through the cracks here at Literotica because it's a 2-person operation and they don't have the time to check up on the origins of everything and make standards consistent. You have to be cautious about making assumptions about what they believe based on how things happen.

I don't know how FinishTheDamnStory's stories got published, because their publication to me seems inconsistent with the message Laurel sent me.

My view is to interpret permissions strictly, not liberally. Unless it's very clear that a Lit author has given express permission, the prudent and ethical thing is to assume that they have not done so. That is what I would do.

I completely disagree with you about fanfiction. I think in many cases the copyright owners, if they pressed the issue, would win their cases and obtain injunctions to have the fanfiction removed. They might not obtain damages, because there's no wrongful profit at stake, but I think they would win, based on basic copyright principles. The fact that nobody profits is not, by itself, enough to make it a clear fair use.

People get away with fanfiction not because it's legal, but because many (but not all) copyright owners understand that fanfiction, rather than depriving them of profit, actually enhances their profit, by driving up interest in their creative works. It's in their practical interest to tolerate it, but if they chose NOT to tolerate it I think they would win in court, UNLESS the fanfiction author could somehow prove that their work was a parody or transformative work, which in many cases might be tough to prove. This is the logic on which I published my Hobbit sex story. I think there's a plausible legal argument that it's parody/transformative, but if the Tolkien estate sent me a cease and desist letter I'd take it down immediately.

 

[Omenainen]

My question should not necessarily effect your choice, but I think it is relevant.

If you post it, and the author HATES it, and immediately emails Laurel, what is the worst that will happen?

She will take your story down... and... that it, right?

I don't see how in a world where things like fan fiction and DEEP FAKE PORN exists, we're even having this discussion.

How is it immoral to take copy-righted characters and write original, non-canon stories with them for free?

---

For the record, I do not write fanfiction about copyrighted characters, and I've never written a fan work without the expressed written consent of the original author.

Rescuing the Fallen is a fanwork set in a horrifying dystopian AU. And I messaged the original author in spite of the fact that they invited spin-offs in the original story's afterward. It turns out original author is a big fan of my spin-off.

Why did I take such care? Just to be polite.
If I wasn't worried about possibly upsetting them, I'd just do it. And if they hated it, they could ask Laurel to remove it.

Plagiarism is horrible, but adding to an existing world after crediting the original author...? That seems 100% fine to me. As long as you're okay with the possibility that your story could be taken down. Which is also 100% fine.

I’m of the opinion that you should do what’s right regardless of lack of consequences for doing the wrong thing. Your mileage may vary.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I’m of the opinion that you should do what’s right regardless of lack of consequences for doing the wrong thing. Your mileage may vary.

Agree. 8letters yaps on about legalities, but completely ignores the ethics of ripping another writer's work. But then, a plagiarist would do that, wouldn't they?

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I’m of the opinion that you should do what’s right regardless of lack of consequences for doing the wrong thing. Your mileage may vary.

I actually agree more than you can imagine. We should ALWAYS do what's right, regardless of the consequences.

Buuuut I don't see fan-works as immoral.

MAYBE writing a sequel with other people's established characters is bad. I could see that being iffy in the morality department.

But borrowing a universe for your own original characters to play in, AND crediting the original author? Beyond fair game imo

 

[Omenainen]

I actually agree more than you can imagine. We should ALWAYS do what's right, regardless of the consequences.

Buuuut I don't see fan-works as immoral.

MAYBE writing a sequel with other people's established characters is bad. I could see that being iffy in the morality department.

But borrowing a universe for your own original characters to play in, AND crediting the original author? Beyond fair game imo

I think there’s a pretty wide gap between, say, the Star Wars universe and a smutty world created by someone writing as a hobby over at Literotica.

 

[StillStunned]

A while ago I found one of my stories on someone else's site. It was credited to my Lit name, and there was a link to my profile here, and there were some very kind words from the site's host and some readers. Very flattering.

But still. It felt like they'd stolen from me. They eventually took it down after I emailed them, even though by then I'd mostly stopped caring.

If someone started writing stories about my characters, I'd hate it. For a start, I'm quite conceited so my automatic assumption would be that they'd do a worse job of it. But also, it's like someone else is sleeping in your bed without asking.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

I think there’s a pretty wide gap between, say, the Star Wars universe and a smutty world created by someone writing as a hobby over at Literotica.

Why? How?

What's the difference?

Just because more people like Star Wars it's more acceptable to create fanworks? How? I don't understand that logic.

To me, the only difference is, you might be able to realistically reach out and contact another small time author.

GOOD! TRY YOUR BEST! And if you contact them, go along with whatever they say! (That's what I did - I let AlectaShadow beta-read every chapter I post, and I take their word as law in regards to the world in which I'm writing).

But if you can't reach them? Well, then they might as well be George Lucas as far as I'm concerned

 

[Euphony]

A spirit of it's the original author bearing the responsibility to self police Lit to keep their characters out of categories or themes incongruent with your vision seems problematic to me.