Derivative works

[alohadave]

it rubs the lotion on its skin or it gets the hose

Go on...

 

[alohadave]

Those X-wing cockpits only have one seat, so you know it's on.

Interstellar lap sit road trip.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Makes no difference if he's dead. He doesn't lose proprietary ownership of his material. Just don't ride on someone else's back without their explicit permission. If they're dead that's just tough for you.

I politely disagree. Who could possibly be hurt if you continue the story of a dead man, by adding on to his work and crediting him?

 

[SimonDoom]

I have heard cartoons such as what Hustler featured called “Real Person Fanfiction”. The comparison is valid imo.

Not legally. They are completely different legal issues. There's no such thing as copyright in one's person, while there is in one's fictional creations. Falwell had no copyright in himself. He sued Hustler for intentional infliction of emotional distress, libel, and invasion of privacy for its publication of a cartoon of him in an incestuous act with his mother. The court said the cartoon was protected First Amendment expression. It's a completely different situation from fanfiction. The Hustler case is not authority for the idea that it's OK to publish stories that incorporate characters from another author's fiction. The issue is completely different.

The reality-based way to look at fanfiction is not that it's legal and OK; the right way to look at it is that it's probably infringement, although in some cases in a legally gray area, but that for practical reasons many copyright owners don't go after fanfiction authors. You can take from that what you will, but don't assume that it's legal. As far as I know, there is no legal precedent that establishes that fanfiction is clearly legal, and since it is obviously prima facie infringement, one should assume, in an abundance of caution, that it's probably infringement, but infringement without likely consequences. What one does with that knowledge is one's choice.

 

[SimonDoom]

Laurel doesn't have the moral or legal control of this.

We're on the AH here. This isn't just about what you might be able to get away with on this Website This is about the respect writers should have for the rights of other writers.

This is my view. I don't think there's anything obviously ethical about copyright law, but I think observing another author's copyrights is the decent and courteous thing to do. It's like trespassing on somebody's property. You don't take the attitude, "I'll trespass on their property until they kick me off." You stay off the property until you've been given permission to go on it.

 

[AchtungNight]

I politely disagree. Who could possibly be hurt if you continue the story of a dead man, by adding on to his work and crediting him?

The fans of the dead man. And you, should you do something the dead man might not support.

There was a certain Austrian painter in my ficverse whose rise to fame was supported by an organization similar to the Illuminati. The same organization later supported the same painter’s fall from grace and sent their deadliest assassin code named AGONY to eliminate the painter. AGONY succeeded in their mission.

Do you think I’m a fan of the painter since I used him as a referenced villain? Please let me know.

 

[EmilyMiller]

For the new, 8letters has plagiarized another Lit author. He then removed all of his stories, at the behest of no one, and is reuploading them slowly after some "re-edits".

Lit doesn’t have the ability to add Community Notes, so consider this your warning that his support for this position potentially has less to do with you than it does for lowering everyone's standards until we all forget what he did. Muddying the waters, so to speak.

Someone needs to write A Brief History of Literotica.

Em

 

[Paul_Chance]

An author I followed wrote a story with 2 sequels. I thoroughly enjoyed the stories, but he ended them in a spot where another sequel would bring closure to the work. I emailed him stating I had written a ‘final’ chapter. This work would acknowledge the story, plot and characters as his, giving him full credit. He wrote back saying he was honored someone would do this, but never said whether it could be submitted or published. That was in 2006. Fast forward to 2023. I’ve had no response or contact with him after multiple attempts. He has published in 2012, but nothing since. To make a short story long, can I submit this to Lit, confident it will be published and legal?

I'd credit the original author/stories in the opening paragraph and submit it for publishing.

If I asked an author for permission to do a derivative work and got some sort of ambivalence in response back, I'd interpret the "honored" to be permission, if that was their only comment (regardless of the tense used). If they objected, I'd simply pull it down and apologize.

This isn't contracts 101. It's informal people asking informal permission. If someone asked my permission to do a derivative work and I didn't want them to do it, I'd say "No." If I said "honored", regardless of the tense, I'd mean yes.

 

[SimonDoom]

I politely disagree. Who could possibly be hurt if you continue the story of a dead man, by adding on to his work and crediting him?

Copyright exists for the life of the author plus 70 years. "You can't hurt a dead man" is not a legal defense. The author's heirs enjoy control of the copyright and a right to exclude others from using the copyrighted work that is every bit as strong as the deceased author's. It makes no difference whether the author is dead. It DOES make a difference 70 years plus 1 day after death, but that's not going to be an issue at Literotica for a while.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

This is my view. I don't think there's anything obviously ethical about copyright law, but I think observing another author's copyrights is the decent and courteous thing to do. It's like trespassing on somebody's property. You don't take the attitude, "I'll trespass on their property until they kick me off." You stay off the property until you've been given permission to go on it.

Yes!

But seemingly abandoned properly is fair game. No trespassing signs exist for a reason.

"I'd love to walk these meadows. Are their any no trespassing signs? No? Well let me contact the owner! What? He's completely unreachable? Well I'll walk it until I'm asked to leave. If there's any issue, I'll promptly leave."

 

[alohadave]

I politely disagree. Who could possibly be hurt if you continue the story of a dead man, by adding on to his work and crediting him?

The law disagrees with you. Whether we like it or not, copyright persists for 70 years after the author dies.

The estate/current copyright holder has the right to enforce it.

As for who could be hurt, you could be. Is it likely that a dead Lit author's family is going to chase you for infringement? No not really. But if you follow the letter of the law it'll covered by copyright for a long time. If they do come after you for damages, no court will side with you, and no lawyer will say that you have a case.

Again, extremely unlikely to ever happen here.

 

[AchtungNight]

Yes!

But seemingly abandoned properly is fair game. No trespassing signs exist for a reason.

"I'd love to walk these meadows. Are their any no trespassing signs? No? Well let me contact the owner! What? He's completely unreachable? Well I'll walk it until I'm asked to leave. If there's any issue, I'll promptly leave."

That hungry bear in the hunting preserve you’re trespassing in might be an issue. Just so you’re aware.

 

[SimonDoom]

Yes!

But seemingly abandoned properly is fair game. No trespassing signs exist for a reason.

"I'd love to walk these meadows. Are their any no trespassing signs? No? Well let me contact the owner! What? He's completely unreachable? Well I'll walk it until I'm asked to leave. If there's any issue, I'll promptly leave."

There's ZERO reason to believe that a story at Literotica by an author who hasn't been around for a long time is "abandoned property." The courteous presumption, absent evidence to the contrary, should be that the author, for whatever reason, has declined to continue participating at Literotica, but that all of their rights in their stories that existed before continue to exist. Literotica is somewhat ambiguous on this point, but this to me clearly seems to be the courteous attitude to take.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Copyright exists for the life of the author plus 70 years. "You can't hurt a dead man" is not a legal defense. The author's heirs enjoy control of the copyright and a right to exclude others from using the copyrighted work that is every bit as strong as the deceased author's. It makes no difference whether the author is dead. It DOES make a difference 70 years plus 1 day after death, but that's not going to be an issue at Literotica for a while.

Legal? Dude, I don't care about the law in this instance.

I care about being polite and courteous, and I care about ACTUALLY getting in trouble. (which technically means I care about the law, but since we both know that the government wouldn't/couldn't ever intervene in a case like this it hardly registers on my radar)

 

[ElectricBlue]

There's ZERO reason to believe that a story at Literotica by an author who hasn't been around for a long time is "abandoned property." The courteous presumption, absent evidence to the contrary, should be that the author, for whatever reason, has declined to continue participating at Literotica, but that all of their rights in their stories that existed before continue to exist. Literotica is somewhat ambiguous on this point, but this to me clearly seems to be the courteous attitude to take.

Not only courtesy, but ethically, too.

In my mind the legalities and copyright are one side of all this, and basic writers' ethics the other.

Seems like most here adhere to a common set of ethics (don't do it), with one or two exceptions (do it, but if you get busted, take it down).

The simplest reply is, of course, "Write your own damn story, don't steal someone else's."

 

[XerXesXu]

and no lawyer will say that you have a case.

They will. Offer them money. At every step of the way they make money, win or lose, and there are a great many steps to be taken.
Remember, 'The doors of the Courts, like those of the Ritz, are open to the rich and poor alike.' Litigation is a millionaires' game, only they eat at the Ritz and go to Court.

 

[alohadave]

They will. Offer them money. At every step of the way they make money, win or lose, and there are a great many steps to be taken.
Remember, 'The doors of the Courts, like those of the Ritz, are open to the rich and poor alike.' Litigation is a millionaires' game, only they eat and the Ritz and go to Court.

Taking you as a client doesn't mean that they think you have a case or that they think you'll win. And they'll tell you up front the chances of coming out ahead.

 

[8letters]

Laurel doesn't have the moral or legal control of this.

And yet, Laurel has published derivative of other author's works at least sixty times. What are you going to do about that? Hold your breath until you turn blue? Pull all your stories?

Let me say what my opinions are. I'm fine with Laurel publishing chapters that continue an abandoned story. I think when an author starts a series, there's an implied contract that they'll finish. FinishTheDamnStory provided closure to readers of series that the author had abandoned. That being said, I wouldn't do it personally. I have far more story ideas than I'll ever be able to put down into words.

I'm not a fan of the idea of someone writing a sequel to a story. My gut feel is that the author writing such a sequel could put a little more effort into it and make it a stand-alone story.

I really dislike the idea of someone rewriting an author's story. If someone did that to me, I'd take it as a huge insult as I think it implies that they think I totally screwed the execution of my own idea.

But as I said, my opinions don't matter. There are plenty of people who think that I/T stories shouldn't be published on Literotica. Incest in real life destroys lives. No one should write stories that glamorize it. And their opinions don't matter just like mine don't matter. To me, by publishing on Literotica, I've accepted the rules of Literotica. If I don't like the rules, I have the choice of pulling my story and publishing them on a site whose rules I find agreeable.

We're on the AH here. This isn't just about what you might be able to get away with on this Website This is about the respect writers should have for the rights of other writers.

Laurel's opinion on what disrespect the rights of other authors is different than yours. What are you going to do about that?

 

[XerXesXu]

Taking you as a client doesn't mean that they think you have a case or that they think you'll win. And they'll tell you up front the chances of coming out ahead.

You can trust me, I'm a lawyer.

 

[lovecraft68]

Um so....you have been obsessed with this story for 17 years?

Wow.

 

[KeithD]

And yet, Laurel has published derivative of other author's works at least sixty times. What are you going to do about that? Hold your breath until you turn blue? Pull all your stories?

No, what I'm going to do is walk away from you without reading further. I don't need to engage with people I find offensive.

 

[alohadave]

You can trust me, I'm a lawyer.

You are the last person I'd take legal advice from.

 

[XerXesXu]

You are the last person I'd take legal advice from.

You couldn't afford me.

 

[SimonDoom]

Taking you as a client doesn't mean that they think you have a case or that they think you'll win. And they'll tell you up front the chances of coming out ahead.

I think a rich author who was willing to take on fanfiction infringers as a matter of principle, knowing it would yield nothing financially, would have an excellent chance of winning. I think most fanfiction is infringement, and in most cases the author would win. They might not get much money out of it, but they probably could win an injunction to remove the infringing stories. The fact that it doesn't happen is not the result of it being a weak case legally; it's because it's not worth it financially to pursue.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

The simplest reply is, of course, "Write your own damn story, don't steal someone else's."

Writing a fan-work is not stealing and it isn't plagiarism, unless you don't openly acknowledge the source you're borrowing from.