The Short Story vs. The Novel

I received a PM from Penelope Street wondering if I might revisit a topic I had raised a month or so ago on another thread. At that time I had had a discussion with another Lit author, Lauren Hynde, and we had agreed that often one of the biggest mistakes that short story writers, particularly erotic S.S. writers make is that they end up trying to write a novel when they should be writing a short story.

What I meant by this was that a novel is far different than a short story.

For example one of the reasons that I am not fond of reading a lot of ‘historical background’ in short stories is because it does little to further a narrative that has a relatively small amount of space in which to accomplish or expose its central conflict or theme. It’s my feeling that unless every single detail of recounted background has some use to further the final goal in that short story, then it’s simply an example of how a writer can futilely use his/her words.

In my opinion, a writer can take a lot of liberties when writing a novel, but when it comes to the short story a good writer must use brevity at every turn.

There’s an endless wealth of discussion to be had from this topic and it’s hard to determine where to start. Other than what I’ve said, perhaps another great place to begin is by asking how long we think a short story should be? There’s a lot of debate around this in itself.

To me, the perfect erotic short story hovers between 3,500 and 7,500 words.

My reasons:

- Most magazine publishers will not accept anything beyond 5,000 words.
- I, myself find reading an erotic short story beyond 7,500 words (10,000 words
being my limit) exhausting.
- Readers of short erotica want to be turned on more immediately.

Anyhow, feel free to comment, add and debate.

I think the defining element of a short story is that it must be short enough to be comfortably read in one sitting. Given that, and considering that we deal mostly with the internet medium and that reading from a computer screen is not as comfortable as from a piece of paper, I would put the ideal word count for a short story between 3500 and 5000 words.

The greatest problem with most amateur short story writers, namely here at Lit, is that they haven't read enough real short stories outside from those posted here, or they haven't paused to consider the specific mechanics of short stories. Instead, they write in the pace they are used to experiencing in novels, and end up with extremely short novels without the depth or structure of a novel, instead of with a real short story.

Short stories, like you said, are the perfect ground for concision, for straightforwardness, and for precision writing. In that way, it is a lot like poetry - and as in poetry, it's extremely easy for beginners to feel tempted to do the exact opposite while thinking they're doing the right thing. 90% of the description we find in most erotic stories at Lit have little or no influence in making the story advance. There is a general obsession with constructing perfectly defined characters with background histories and detailed physical descriptions that has nothing to do with the mechanics of short story. Those are novel-writing vices. Successful short stories are simple. As with poetry, they have one single powerful image/message to get across, and that's what they do. Every word should work towards that goal or not be in there at all.

That is worthwhile advice on a short story. It must be succinct to be successful. Novels can wander, though that seems to be a more literary convention. Many popular novels wander little more than a short story, particularly those of the pulp variety.

I guess I view novels as being about character with the plot as a way of demonstrating or evoking that character. Short stories are more about plot with a character(s) that exists to advance the plot.

Like all rules of thumb, it doesn't work all the time. But as a general description of most shorts, I think it does. Novels have room for background that enrich them, creating more complex plots and characters. If an author adds too much background or development to a short story, a novella is created inadvertently.

CharleyH said:

My reasons:

- Most magazine publishers will not accept anything beyond 5,000 words.
- I, myself find reading an erotic short story beyond 7,500 words (10,000 words
being my limit) exhausting.
- Readers of short erotica want to be turned on more immediately.

Anyhow, feel free to comment, add and debate.

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Well, for the past year, most of my submissions on my ongoing "Oat Opera" have been around 20K, this seems to be the popular length for the readers of the series, it gives them enough time to be totally immersed in the setting...and leaves them with the feeling that they have been there with the characters.

Now, this is just my personal opinion, I think too many of the stories at Lit just focus on the sex, but that is to be expected. I was that way when I first started writing here. Now, to me, the plot, and the characters are much more important, and the erotic nature of the story is a very minor consideration when I write.

I agree, I think 10K is a good length for a short story.

Thank you, Charley and Lauren!

I think I maybe be one of the guilty ones. Most of my posted stories are over 7500 words and my stories seem to be getting longer rather than shorter- although I prefer to read longer stories too. I don't believe I'm a terribly fast reader, but I've no problem reading stories several Lit pages long in one sitting, though I most often print them and take them to bed with me, so maybe that makes the difference.

Many readers prefer their erotica to take place in the context of a romance. Romances, being heavily dependent on character development, dialogue, and introspection, are almost impossible to do well in a short format. They work much better at novella to novel length (30k to 100k words). The shorter length is more appropriate for erotic romances which have no other plot, while the longer length is more appropriate for those which are also a mystery, adventure, or have some other type of plot going on.

After sleeping on the matter, I've a few questions. In addition to providing unnecessary historical background, what other common pitfalls should a short story writer avoid? Does the novella represent a gradual transition between a short story and a novel or is it a third type of its own? Is there any reason not to write longer stories in a lean fashion too?

I would say a novella is a third type of its own, and divide them by plot type. Usually a novella has a single plot arc and no subplots, while a novel has either two or more parallel plots, a main plot with one or more subplots, or two or more plot arcs strung into an overall larger plot. A short story does not have a complete plot arc at all, but instead has one to three pivotal scenes. While a novel or novella chronicles a disruption of the world, a struggle, and a climactic change that returns the world to order, a short story usually shows only the struggle and a climactic change.

Mesachie said:

That is worthwhile advice on a short story. It must be succinct to be successful. Novels can wander, though that seems to be a more literary convention. Many popular novels wander little more than a short story, particularly those of the pulp variety.

I guess I view novels as being about character with the plot as a way of demonstrating or evoking that character. Short stories are more about plot with a character(s) that exists to advance the plot.

Like all rules of thumb, it doesn't work all the time. But as a general description of most shorts, I think it does. Novels have room for background that enrich them, creating more complex plots and characters. If an author adds too much background or development to a short story, a novella is created inadvertently.

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I agree in a lot of ways. When I am reading a novel I am much more intrigued by the history of the character and want to know the character on multiple levels, but in a short story I enjoy the situation and I believe semiotics and actions are more exemplifying of character than the telling of character background, particularly considering the limited space of the short story.

Drksideofthemoon: (Drkside from this point on - - if you don't mind, or maybe you have a preference?) But, you are talking of an ongoing series and similar to perhaps a soap opera (not saying "Oat Opera" is, just making a parellel) there is an endless amount of space because there is no obvious conclusion to a series, or at least the conclusion will not be apparent in the word space of what a short story might be considered to be.

Indeed, many stories on Lit focus on sex, but then Lit is an erotic and porn site, so the focus is, as you do say, to be expected. Perhaps you can explain more about what you mean when you express:

I think too many of the stories at Lit just focus on the sex, but ... I was that way when I first started writing here. Now, to me, the plot, and the characters are much more important, and the erotic nature of the story is a very minor consideration when I write.

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Can the eroticism of a short story be discounted, become secondary or minor when writing for all but one category on Lit?

Penelope Street said:

Most of my posted stories are over 7500 words and my stories seem to be getting longer rather than shorter- although I prefer to read longer stories too.

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Perhaps you are simply working yourself up to writing a novel?

What is it about the longer stories that you enjoy more than the short ones, if you don't mind the ask? I think it might be very telling in regards to the topic at hand.

drksideofthemoon said:

Now, to me, the plot, and the characters are much more important, and the erotic nature of the story is a very minor consideration when I write.

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I think this is one of the reasons why there are so few actual short-stories at Lit (the other being the opposite, lots of people focusing exclusively on the sex, with plot becoming a minor nuisance if there at all). Many of the stories posted by good authors in here devote so much to plot and character, relegating sex to a very minor role in the story. I'm not saying that is bad per se, of course, but I don't know if you're writing short stories or something else - most likely a novella, as sunandshadow said, with a fully-developed story arc.

Someone said that "a series of sex scenes is not a plot." And that may be true, if you're thinking of novels and novellas, romance or not, where sex scenes are the kind of sex scenes we're all used to reading, little interludes before you go on with the real story. You can usually cut them out and it wouldn't affect the plot or the way we see the characters at all. Put this together with what I had said before about the mechanics of short stories, and if these scenes can be cut out, then they absolutely must be cut out. Which means that in my opinion, you can't have an erotic / pornographic short story (as opposed to a novella or novel), unless the sex scenes are very much the plot and the character development - which is definitely not as easy or simplistic as it might sound, and quite different from having sex scenes without plot or character development.


Edited to add: I think CharleyH's The Screening, for example, illustrates this point perfectly.

CharleyH said:

What is it about the longer stories that you enjoy more than the short ones, if you don't mind the ask? I think it might be very telling in regards to the topic at hand.

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In a good novel, I don't want it to end. With favourite authors, I'm a little agrieved in their next offering is 'too thin' in the book store.

You have a pretty good skill (Charley) in writing down to a length. Might be all those years of magazine writing bringing economy and style in getting across what you want to say. I always imagine I've read more than the content with one of your stories.

In the end, it is horses for courses. A complex story can require more words, conversely you can describe a awful lot with few words or very little with a lot. Murakami is an example of the former, Elizabeth Kostova - 'The Historian' is an example of the latter. A curious book that might have actually won the Booker Prize if it had been half its length. There were severe nodding off moments despite a chase for Vampires across Europe.

Writing away from shorts to novel length is an exercise - I leave too much out, little things like the weather, colours, sounds, which you might get away with in short form, but not in novel length. It's not padding but giving a fuller image.

CharleyH said:

- Most magazine publishers will not accept anything beyond 5,000 words.

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Most E-publishers want 10-12K minimum. I guess it depends on where you go to read and where you want to put your work?

neonlyte said:

In a good novel, I don't want it to end. With favourite authors, I'm a little agrieved in their next offering is 'too thin' in the book store.

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I think reading David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest (1100 pages, 150 of which being endnotes and footnotes to the endnotes, all in very small print) might cure you of that.

(I'm about to start reading The Historian...)

Lauren Hynde said:

I think reading David Foster Wallace's Infinite Jest (1100 pages, 150 of which being endnotes and footnotes to the endnotes, all in very small print) might cure you of that.

(I'm about to start reading The Historian...)

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Foot notes are for footfetishers.

Goody, we'll compare notes.

SelenaKittyn said:

Most E-publishers want 10-12K minimum. I guess it depends on where you go to read and where you want to put your work?

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Of course it does. And some magazine publishers will accept over the max if the story is too great to ignore. However, e-publishers want novellas because the short story isn't profitable enough and the novel is too long for the Internet medium.

When, in your op, does a short story cease being a short story and become novella? What is the difference between a short story, a novella, a novel?

neonlyte said:

Foot notes are for footfetishers.

Goody, we'll compare notes.

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LOL great comeback. I have seen this novel and people thought, 'War and Peace' was long?

CharleyH said:

I have seen this novel and people thought, 'War and Peace' was long?

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The truly amazing thing, though, is that it has a dozen different story arcs and more sub-plots than I care to count, none of which is by the end of the 1100 pages resolved in any kind of way, and it is still deliciously GOOD.

CharleyH said:

When, in your op, does a short story cease being a short story and become novella? What is the difference between a short story, a novella, a novel?

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Short Story = 1-15K-ish
Novella = 15-50K-ish
Novel = 50K-ish and up

The difference? Word count.

neonlyte said:

In a good novel, I don't want it to end. With favourite authors, I'm a little agrieved in their next offering is 'too thin' in the book store.

You have a pretty good skill (Charley) in writing down to a length. Might be all those years of magazine writing bringing economy and style in getting across what you want to say. I always imagine I've read more than the content with one of your stories.

In the end, it is horses for courses. A complex story can require more words, conversely you can describe a awful lot with few words or very little with a lot. Murakami is an example of the former, Elizabeth Kostova - 'The Historian' is an example of the latter. A curious book that might have actually won the Booker Prize if it had been half its length. There were severe nodding off moments despite a chase for Vampires across Europe.

Writing away from shorts to novel length is an exercise - I leave too much out, little things like the weather, colours, sounds, which you might get away with in short form, but not in novel length. It's not padding but giving a fuller image.

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Thanks to you and Lauren for bringing my writing into the topic (very bashful look and I only respond because you said something I want to answer regarding it). I am not sure it was/is magazine or PR writing more than my love of the short story combined with my love of film. I enjoy expeimenting with the form of the short story whenever possible, though.

In any case, I think the short story is a form for brevity. The history of the short story is two-fold, yet in both instances the common attribute is that it is short: shorter than a novel, shorter than a novella. The short story comes from an oral tradition ... to start, but I think it has certainly evolved. More than a novel, a short story must make you experience as a reader, with a writer/character, immediately and in this way (to answer to Penny somewhat) a short story MUST be more action oriented than a novel and I personally believe in the case of the short story, the form demands the content. I think in a novel the content demands the form.

SelenaKittyn said:

Short Story = 1-15K-ish
Novella = 15-50K-ish
Novel = 50K-ish and up

The difference? Word count.

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Come on? Just a word count makes the difference? (raised eyebrow)

CharleyH said:

Come on? Just a word count makes the difference? (raised eyebrow)

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Yes.

I personally believe in the case of the short story, the form demands the content. I think in a novel the content demands the form.

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This is where we always differ. Content always demands form. If it's meant to be a short story, it will be a short story. If it's meant to be a novel, it will be a novel. And if it's meant to be that damnable novella, then that's what it's gonna be.

Ever try to force a story into something it shouldn't be? Make it longer, make it shorter? It's often like fitting a round peg into a square hole. If the story flowed naturally from writer to page, it will be the length it should be when it's all said and done.

If it was forced, as a reader, I'll know it, and it will either be painful to read and I'll read it anyway (for whatever reason) or I'll stop. Usually the latter.

SelenaKittyn said:

Yes.



This is where we always differ. Content always demands form. If it's meant to be a short story, it will be a short story. If it's meant to be a novel, it will be a novel. And if it's meant to be that damnable novella, then that's what it's gonna be.

Ever try to force a story into something it shouldn't be? Make it longer, make it shorter? It's often like fitting a round peg into a square hole. If the story flowed naturally from writer to page, it will be the length it should be when it's all said and done.

If it was forced, as a reader, I'll know it, and it will either be painful to read and I'll read it anyway (for whatever reason) or I'll stop. Usually the latter.

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I admire your opinion. But I diverge on the fact that a word count merely represents the difference between the three, although it is part of it.

The form of a short story requires that the content be pointed in my opinion and in this way, the short story form rules the content that can be held within it. I do not believe that a 'good' short story is marred by character background. In a novel (of any length) I think the opposite, that a good novel is repleat with some amount of character background. Yet, you still have not really given your take on the difference, in your opinion, between the short story, novella and novel? I am interested in that.

CharleyH said:

I admire your opinion. But I diverge on the fact that a word count merely represents the difference between the three, although it is part of it.

The form of a short story requires that the content be pointed in my opinion and in this way, the short story form rules the content that can be held within it. I do not believe that a 'good' short story is marred by character background. In a novel (of any length) I think the opposite, that a good novel is repleat with some amount of character background. Yet, you still have not really given your take on the difference, in your opinion, between the short story, novella and novel? I am interested in that.

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if your definition of a short story goes up to 15K, I don't think form rules content. You can still fit lots in there that needs to be said! And a novel doesn't have to have character background to make it good, either.

I told you what I thought the difference was. Word count Honestly, I wasn't kidding. I don't think there's any other difference. A story is a story. It will unfold and be what it is. A rose doesn't unfold into a sunflower or vice versa. The seed that a writer plants will grow to completeness and then we can enjoy it in its fullness... whether it's 1K or 100K...

SelenaKittyn said:

if your definition of a short story goes up to 15K, I don't think form rules content. You can still fit lots in there that needs to be said! And a novel doesn't have to have character background to make it good, either.

I told you what I thought the difference was. Word count Honestly, I wasn't kidding. I don't think there's any other difference. A story is a story. It will unfold and be what it is. A rose doesn't unfold into a sunflower or vice versa. The seed that a writer plants will grow to completeness and then we can enjoy it in its fullness... whether it's 1K or 100K...

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I guess you don't know how to write a short story, then? ( shakes head several times )