Times of war

Long ago, I had a friend who was born in Rhodesia and raised during the civil war that gave birth to Zimbabwe. Her family sent her to South Africa for her education and to get her out of the war.

At one point (we were in our early/mid twenties at the time) she commented "Women have no morals during times of war." She expanded on it, and it all rang true for me. I've never questioned it.

Recently, I've been thinking of building the effect into a medieval story, and wondered if it was true beyond my friend's anecdotal experience. A quick google came up with "Khaki fever" in England during WWI, and I recall vague references to similar things in the US during WWII.

I could put more research into it, but I'd rather ask. Is this universal? Do women's sexual standards change when stressed by war?

That's a major theme in my (sr71plt's) bisexual (currently rated at 4.87) "The Aviators"

https://www.literotica.com/s/the-aviators

Interesting topic. I’m gonna have to look into that just outta curiosity. Men’s sexual standards are definitely changed when stressed by war. The raping of women in Germany and China alone during WW2 would probably stand testimony to that. From my stand point, I don’t really see that so much as sexual standards changing in men as it would be afflicting further pain on the enemy.

However, Hollywood in the last decade has geared towards that by casting light on unlikely couples and sexual relationships with women that come about from, say, a natural disaster or a zombie apocalypse type scenario.
Kant

NotWise said:

I could put more research into it, but I'd rather ask. Is this universal? Do women's sexual standards change when stressed by war?

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It's been documented that in the final stages of the Russian advance on Berlin many German women actively sought out the Soviet officers for protection, paying for their protection by sexual favours. There's a very powerful book published just after the war by one such woman, but for the life of me I cannot remember its title.

NotWise said:

I could put more research into it, but I'd rather ask. Is this universal? Do women's sexual standards change when stressed by war?

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Do sexual standards change? I don’t think so. I think it’s more about the morality of survival. Women are able to trade their bodies and sex for food, shelter and protection to a certain extent in times of war and violence. Only to a certain extent and within the parameters of the conflict. German women and Soviet officers might be an example. Most German women were not so fortunate when the Red Army passed through.

It applies I think mostly after the conflict has passed by where people do what they must to continue to survive. Cultural mores do change during times of war, but that's often incidental and part of the changes that societies undergo during the stresses of major conflicts.

The need to survive is a great driver, and things change when it;s literally life and death. Look at the occupations of German and Japan, in the immediate one or two years after the war ended for examples. That was a time when many german and japanese women sold themselves simply for food for themselves and their families. For women, selling sex for food, shelter and favors which will assist in survival is an obvious survival mechanism.

If not for imperial armies marching over the lad at least once every generation we would long all be blood relatives around here.

Last time I was a woman I was raped and killed by some random passing soldiers. It was short and otherwise dull life of a peasant girl, somewhere in medieval Germany perhaps, but not easy to tell by what little detail I remember. What hurt most was that the violence was uncalled for, and frankly, totally unnecessary.

Then, I probably wanted that for what I did after I returned from that ill-advised viking raid on Rügen (I think, 6th or 7th century AD) and discovered my girlfriend... Well, you don't want to know.

ChloeTzang said:

Do sexual standards change? I don’t think so. I think it’s more about the morality of survival. Women are able to trade their bodies and sex for food, shelter and protection to a certain extent in times of war and violence. Only to a certain extent and within the parameters of the conflict. German women and Soviet officers might be an example. Most German women were not so fortunate when the Red Army passed through.

It applies I think mostly after the conflict has passed by where people do what they must to continue to survive. Cultural mores do change during times of war, but that's often incidental and part of the changes that societies undergo during the stresses of major conflicts.

The need to survive is a great driver, and things change when it;s literally life and death. Look at the occupations of German and Japan, in the immediate one or two years after the war ended for examples. That was a time when many german and japanese women sold themselves simply for food for themselves and their families. For women, selling sex for food, shelter and favors which will assist in survival is an obvious survival mechanism.

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I agree with everything Chloe says in her post, but I think there is another factor to consider, and that is that during times of war the male/female ratio in society shifts to a "surplus" of females, creating tougher competition for any women looking to find a partner. It's not unreasonable to think that a fair number of women in that situation will adjust their standards to gain a competitive edge. I remember reading somewhere, and it could be bullshit, that through the 20th century, every time there was a major war, hemlines went up, and when the war ended, came back down.

MelissaBaby said:

I remember reading somewhere, and it could be bullshit, that through the 20th century, every time there was a major war, hemlines went up, and when the war ended, came back down.

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I think it's true in this country, but maybe not because of a change in morality.

The hemlines on young adults went up during WWI and stayed up through the whole of the 20's. It happened in Europe at least as much as it did here. Maybe khaki fever factored in.

Hemlines went down in the 30's (and women started wearing pants) then back up again during WWII. I've read that they went up because the cost of fabric went up during the war and shorter skirts were more affordable. The girls may still have been laying every GI in reach.

I don't know about the Korean War, but hemlines went way up during the Vietnam War. That was a world-wide fashion trend, so it's hard to pin it on our war. We also had the sexual revolution.

The story I'm thinking about is set in Iberia at the beginning of the high middle ages (~1000 CE). Christian societies typically had strict rules about sexual conduct and severe penalties for violating them. They probably wouldn't have laws against things that people didn't do and get caught at. It was also a period of almost continuous Muslim vs Christian warfare in Spain, so I wonder if those rules might have been ignored.

MelissaBaby said:

I agree with everything Chloe says in her post, but I think there is another factor to consider, and that is that during times of war the male/female ratio in society shifts to a "surplus" of females, creating tougher competition for any women looking to find a partner. It's not unreasonable to think that a fair number of women in that situation will adjust their standards to gain a competitive edge. I remember reading somewhere, and it could be bullshit, that through the 20th century, every time there was a major war, hemlines went up, and when the war ended, came back down.

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I don't have studies or data at hand to back this up, but I think there's something to this. I suspect that during World War 2, when millions of young American men were headed off to Europe or the Pacific to fight, there was a relaxation of sexual mores among many of the women left behind in the USA. The exigency of war provided an excuse or opportunity to behave in a way that wouldn't have been accepted pre- or post- war. It's not just a matter of survival. When people get an excuse to let the moral barriers come down, one way or another the barriers will come down. Situational debauchery. Like spring break.

MelissaBaby said:

I remember reading somewhere, and it could be bullshit, that through the 20th century, every time there was a major war, hemlines went up, and when the war ended, came back down.

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To me, it looks like the hemline is on an upward trend throughout the whole of the 20th century rather than fluctuating in times of war or as a leading/trailing indicator of the economy.

I'd look to Hollywood and the music industry as trend setters for hemlines rising and falling.

SimonDoom said:

I don't have studies or data at hand to back this up, but I think there's something to this. I suspect that during World War 2, when millions of young American men were headed off to Europe or the Pacific to fight, there was a relaxation of sexual mores among many of the women left behind in the USA. The exigency of war provided an excuse or opportunity to behave in a way that wouldn't have been accepted pre- or post- war. It's not just a matter of survival. When people get an excuse to let the moral barriers come down, one way or another the barriers will come down. Situational debauchery. Like spring break.

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100% agree with this - otherwise "Jody" would not be such a prominent, recurring character in military culture.

SimonDoom said:

I don't have studies or data at hand to back this up, but I think there's something to this. I suspect that during World War 2, when millions of young American men were headed off to Europe or the Pacific to fight, there was a relaxation of sexual mores among many of the women left behind in the USA. The exigency of war provided an excuse or opportunity to behave in a way that wouldn't have been accepted pre- or post- war. It's not just a matter of survival. When people get an excuse to let the moral barriers come down, one way or another the barriers will come down. Situational debauchery. Like spring break.

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Said of US GIs in the UK waiting for D-Day:

"Overpaid; Oversexed and Over Here."

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/oversexed-overpaid-and-over-here.html

An aspect of the issue I deal with in my cited story that I don't see discussed yet here is the phenomenon from WWII, seen in aviators based in England, most of whom were not going to live to the end of the war. Local women, desperately trying to contribute to the war effort, gave themselves to the aviators as some sort of offering and means of comfort to the tragedy of the high death rate among the aviators.

KeithD said:

An aspect of the issue I deal with in my cited story that I don't see discussed yet here is the phenomenon from WWII, seen in aviators based in England, most of whom were not going to live to the end of the war. Local women, desperately trying to contribute to the war effort, gave themselves to the aviators as some sort of offering and means of comfort to the tragedy of the high death rate among the aviators.

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True. Being a member of a bomber crew was one of the worst jobs one could have in military service in World War 2. The mortality rate was horrendous.

It's easy to forget now, as well, that people then didn't know how the war was going to end. When you worry that your whole world might end you're more likely to relax the normal standards for things, including sex.

Has sexual 'morality' changed in the Muslim world after decades of constant war?

Hypoxia said:

Has sexual 'morality' changed in the Muslim world after decades of constant war?

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Well, they have their own sexual morality which includes women as chattels and, as with ISIS, sex slaves. To the victor, the spoils. Not that much different from the Red army circa 1945. They’re a few centuries behind the rest of us on average, although kind and benevolent Chines Police might give them a run for their money at times.

Hypoxia said:

Has sexual 'morality' changed in the Muslim world after decades of constant war?

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Hasn't the 'constant war' been limited to one part of the Muslim world?

It think you'd have to be Muslim and resident in Syria, Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan in order to answer the question. From the outside it looks like Muslim women in those areas have so few choices in their own lives that their 'morality' couldn't change unless their families caused it.

NotWise said:

Hasn't the 'constant war' been limited to one part of the Muslim world?

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Two very sad truths:

1) Syria was pretty much as westernised and civilised as you can get in that region before this last war started with firing at peaceful demonstrants in unclear circumstances, by a ruler with British education.

2) Daesh (accurate, but perceived to be derogatory name for ISIS) can sadly be considered Muslim "renaissance." I wonder how their version of enlightenment will look like.

Bottom line: women are always whores and confabulate (make up) excuses for their actions. They make piss poor soldiers because they'll fuck sooner than fight....like Brit men.

FEELINGLUCKYPUNK said:

Bottom line: women are always whores and confabulate (make up) excuses for their actions. They make piss poor soldiers because they'll fuck sooner than fight....like Brit men.

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Bottom line. Women don’t have much choice when it’s a real war and not one with limits imposed by politicians. War is conflict, and in an existential fight for survival, men are genetically selected to fight. Whatever feminists think. Said it before I think but I train in taekwondo and Hapkido and I’m good, but a 6 foot 250 lb guy with no experience could, in reality, wipe the floor with me unless I got real lucky and put my high heels through him first. Women soldiers are pretty much a waste of space and a net negative in real combat. As opposed to rear area units where they can contribute. I think you’re overdoing the negativity but your point is valid.

I think the discussion is being jerked away from what the OP has posed. It isn't, I think, what women in war zones have to endure, but how women's perception of sex--their morality on it--can change in wartime and why. Let's not let JBJ sour the soup.

KeithD said:

I think the discussion is being jerked away from what the OP has posed. It isn't, I think, what women in war zones have to endure, but how women's perception of sex--their morality on it--can change in wartime and why. Let's not let JBJ sour the soup.

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Check.

MelissaBaby said:

I remember reading somewhere, and it could be bullshit, that through the 20th century, every time there was a major war, hemlines went up, and when the war ended, came back down.

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There is some indication that hemlines vary with economic shifts. https://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2451&context=utk_gradthes

As to wartime, two things might have factored in. The first was the unprecedented move to mass industrial employment for women in WW1 - very hard to work in a machine shop or driving a vehicle in long, full skirts. The second was due to government regulations in both the USA and the UK during WW2, where long skirts took up more material in times of shortage; both governments passed laws limiting skirt length. https://glamourdaze.com/2010/12/vintage-fashion-history-of-hemlines.html

+

WRT morality, common morals almost certainly shift in times of major stress. I remember reading an oral history from the German Army on the Eastern Front. Men there were known to run through artillery fire to get a drink of schnapps; hardly normal behavior. Booze, tobacco - and yes, sex - were ways for soldiers to forget or cope. Women, as noted have less choice in many ways.

FEELINGLUCKYPUNK said:

Bottom line: women are always whores and confabulate (make up) excuses for their actions.

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That is wrong.

I watched a youtube video of an ex Delta Force Operative (John "Shrek" McPhee) who said that when he was in Afghanistan, he was eating rice with flies in it and shitting in holes in the ground and when he was moved to Iraq, he was living in Saddam's palace and shaving in a sink made of gold. ("Now that is how you war," he said.)

The point is, in war, a person's desire to survive can change their behavior.

This guy didn't come back to the US and continue shitting in holes that he dug himself and eating food with bugs in it to survive. He left that behind in war. As did his killings (I hope).


The term "Women have no morals in war" can translate to: What is a woman willing to do to survive in war? Russian women joined the military as soldiers during WWII. Other women from other countries became whores and thousands of those women paid a price afterwards by having their heads shaved and receiving beatings. If you look at the Rape of Nanjing, you can see just where people's morals go during wartime. And when thousands of men with guns have no morals, it's Hell on Earth. No doubt it happens everywhere, in smaller numbers nowadays, but you can search google and find present day soldiers in a civilized army on trial for rape and murder.

So are all women whores? No and your base translation of the topic is a terrible one.

Are women willing to become whores in order to survive and then regret it later? Yes, but so are men, whether its the ass they give up or the pride that they swallow, some people will do anything to stay alive.

It's not really, "Women have no morals in war" because those don't go away, but its more like, "Women are willing to break their morals to survive in war." They don't toss them aside just because they do things they aren't proud of. And if they do survive, how does that part of their life effect who they are afterward? To say, "Women have no morals" is a haunting phrase. It's not a strong phrase. There is regret in that statement. Saying, "I did what I had to do," shows less to no regret, but this lady didn't say that, so while she's alive, it doesn't sound like she's proud of how she stayed that way.

Women aren't inherent whores, but some are willing to become a whore when the need for it arises.

FEELINGLUCKYPUNK said:

They make piss poor soldiers because they'll fuck sooner than fight....like Brit men.

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Cheap shot , and BS if you look at the UK's history.

MelissaBaby said:

I agree with everything Chloe says in her post, but I think there is another factor to consider, and that is that during times of war the male/female ratio in society shifts to a "surplus" of females, creating tougher competition for any women looking to find a partner. It's not unreasonable to think that a fair number of women in that situation will adjust their standards to gain a competitive edge. I remember reading somewhere, and it could be bullshit, that through the 20th century, every time there was a major war, hemlines went up, and when the war ended, came back down.

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Also, this shift in gender balances tended to lead to greater female autonomy and less oversight. A woman who goes from living with her parents to driving trucks for the Army far away from home has a lot more opportunity to fool around, with less risk that her adventures will get back to harm her reputation. And perhaps less harm to her reputation even if it does come out - the kind of doomed-hero-sympathy-fuck that KeithD mentions would probably draw less approbation than run-of-the-mill fornication in peacetime.

Even if Rosie the Riveter is still living with her parents and working at the factory down the road, it's a significant social change being allowed into what used to be a "male" profession.

Hypoxia said:

Has sexual 'morality' changed in the Muslim world after decades of constant war?

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Has sexual morality changed in the USA after decades of constant war?

The "Muslim world" isn't a cultural monolith. Attitudes to sexual issues vary greatly between and within Muslim-majority countries - see e.g. differing laws and habits relating to polygyny. Some Muslim countries like Afghanistan have indeed been at war for decades, but Afghanistan isn't very representative of the whole.

(I live next to the biggest Muslim-majority country in the world; from what I can tell it's very low in the consciousness of most Americans, because the USA isn't at war there. I would be interested to hear what most Americans would guess as the biggest Muslim-majority country without looking it up; I'd be pleasantly surprised if 10% got it right.)