Shame and humiliation in sex

Altissimus

Irreverently Piquant
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(Before you start reading, probably worth knowing this post asks few questions and doesn't really go anywhere. You have been warned. Still, might be interesting... a coffee, and then we'll begin?)

I was doing some reading online in relation to researching a story I'm writing. Following all the wrong sorts of links, I ended up not on pornhub, as one might expect, but instead reading some 'sex therapist' articles about the impact of negative emotions on sex. I found myself thinking that the author had addressed about 5% of what mattered, so I expanded my search and found a whole bunch more stuff I didn't agree with. People on the internet are wrong? It cannot be!

Taking the active contributors on the AH as a sub-set of the population, I would argue that we have a more enlightened, more thoughtful, more experienced and more open attitude to sex - comparatively speaking, at least. So this should be interesting.

The majority of threads and articles I found emphasised the negative aspects of shame and/or humiliation (S&H) in sexual arousal. In other words, S&H are detractors, inhibitors, something to avoid:
  1. S&H are often associated with feelings of inadequacy, low self-esteem, and self-consciousness, all of which are undesirable.
  2. S&H associated with one's own body image can severely curtail arousal, and lead to discomfort or inhibition during sex, even limiting the ability to fully engage.
  3. Cultural and sociological factors can also stigmatise certain sexual activities, repressing them or creating S&H when the acts continue anyway.
  4. S&H is often associated with erectile dysfunction, both directly and indirectly; an example of the latter is where S&H lead to heightened anxiety and tension, constricting blood flow to where it's needed for sex.
Is it possible for shame and/or humiliation to be an arousal facilitator without negative association, or is the very definition of shame such that it requires that negative? Psychologically speaking, guilt is something we've done, whereas shame is something we are. It seems, then, that shame is a baaaaad thing.

I'd like to explore the concept that S&H can be a liberating force on sexual arousal. A facilitator, not a detractor.
  • Point 1 and 2 above - In the top-10 fantasies, cuckolding (a rarely mentioned topic on this forum...) also stem largely from S&H - the concept of the 'alpha male' (who, presumably, doesn't suffer any S&H hindrances) coming in to do the wifey instead. Quite often, the husband is forced to watch on (self-consciousness, point 1), is made to feel inadequate (1), it affects his self-esteem (1), not to mention frequent references to his inadequate size, comparatively (point 2).
  • And still in the top-10, incest/taboo incorporates S&H. Clearly a point 3 above, it tends not to be a good idea to bang your brother/sister/father/mother, yet, by golly, isn't the internet full of it? What's all that about then? Why is incest so appealing to so many if not - at least in part - for the shame associated with social stigmatism? For the risk of being caught?
  • Into the top-5 fantasies now: sex in a place where there's a real risk of being caught. And the S&H of being caught (or the risk thereof) is a primary driver in the arousal. Surely this is socially taboo - do exhibitionism and incest have something in common, perhaps: the S&H associated with something taboo, the risk of being caught?
Why do power dynamics (inadequacy, low self-esteem (not intended to be an exhaustive definition of 'power dynamics')), the risk of being caught (social stigmatism) or cuckolding (body image (size), inadequacy, self-esteem) facilitate arousal?

Perhaps the answer lies in the escapism we, as erotica authors, know all about - fantasies that elicit intense emotions while allowing the harmless exploration of the unknown, the taboo, and the unobtainable.
Or perhaps the answer is emotional catharsis, the release of pent-up and repressed emotions in a fulfilling and rewarding way.
Taboo trends evoke strong emotions associated with S&H, but perhaps bucking (so to speak) those trends can lead to feelings of great liberation, facilitating and increasing arousal.
Then again, maybe S&H leads to a heightened state, increasing the impact of all emotions, and the consequential endorphins and dopamine are just that much more addictive in the S&H heightened state, ultimately even making S&H themselves the lure.

This is interesting to me personally, because much of what I write is D/s related. S&H often plays a large part in D/s dynamics, but what is rarely understood and often overlooked about D/s is that it can be incredibly liberating. Having no choice but to comply makes you a slave, yes (let's assume figuratively); but having no choice but to comply also saves you from having to make decisions. This has been the excuse used for decades by all those rich alpha-male board members who spend their Friday nights down at Mistress' Dungeon. Liberation. Handing over control. Freedom. If this is indeed true (and I see no reason to think it isn't) it applies equally to the D/s dynamic irrespective of the gender in each role: as liberating for the female submissive (few of whom, IME, are doormats) as it is for the supposedly alpha-male bankers. And all of a sudden we're back into the top-5 fantasies: power dynamics, male dominance, female submission. More outlets for facilitating arousal, stemming, ultimately, from S&H.

One might also ironically observe that given the prevalence amongst the 'sex therapist' articles to concentrate on the negative, perhaps these astute over-qualified folk might have more success if they tapped into the positives of their patients' S&H anxieties. But no, that would be taboo, wouldn't it? One can't go around suggesting that S&H could be positive! That's shameful! And possibly humiliating! Yet embracing S&H (in whatever context is applicable) might possibly solve (or, at least, help address) issues associated with point 4, above.

So ultimately the question becomes: can a submissive, or a cuck, or an exhibitionist, or a brother/sister/daddy/daughter/whatever achieve arousal merely because of the sudden introduction of S&H? I would think not... but combine it with the other aspect(s) of their particular kink - dominance for the submissive, for example - and I might change my answer to 'yes - and every time'.

Anyway, I just thought I'd put some extra thoughts around the criminally-inadequate discussions I found on the interwebnet, throw it out there for anyone who wishes to comment, and now buckle down and get back to my story.

</ramble>.
 
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As a Sex Positive kinda guy, Shame and Humiliation does nothing for me as a kink, either in real life or in stories.

I don't see that S&H factors in to a lot of what you mention so much as the Thrill Of The Risk.

Sure, we might become shamed and humiliated IF we get caught say, having sex or masturbating in public (one of my personal fave fantasy kinks.)

But I don't think S&H is the EROTIC factor.

Incest is of course a trickier subject, and the reality VS fantasy elements couldn't be more disparate.

The reality of incest can be quite UGLY.

As far as the fantasy nature of it though, I think the arousal comes from the Taboo, the Forbidden. The Breaking Of The Essential Rules.

Yes, S&H factor in early in the fantasy, but usuually evolves quickly to the worry about being CAUGHT.

The whole "cuck" thing truly doesn't work for me, so I'll refrain from commenting on that, because I just don't GET IT.
 
So ultimately the question becomes: can a submissive, or a cuck, or an exhibitionist, or a brother/sister/daddy/daughter/whatever achieve arousal merely because of the sudden introduction of S&H? I would think not... but combine it with the other aspect(s) of their particular kink - dominance for the submissive, for example - and I might change my answer to 'yes - and every time'.
Shame and humiliation does zero for me, so there's another "no" from your AH dataset.
 
As a Sex Positive kinda guy, Shame and Humiliation does nothing for me as a kink, either in real life or in stories.
For clarity, I wasn't suggesting S&H as a 'kink' in my post, but as a 'consequence', even as a 'catalyst' (it can be both). S&H is a psychological reaction, not a kink. We can't help that response, any more than we can help guilt, or anger, or pleasure, given the right stimuli.
The whole "cuck" thing truly doesn't work for me, so I'll refrain from commenting on that, because I just don't GET IT.
I believe I made this very same statement earlier today in another conversation. My references to it above were hypothesising in the spirit of inclusion. I don't 'get' it either.
 
For clarity, I wasn't suggesting S&H as a 'kink' in my post, but as a 'consequence'

Understood.

That said, S&H seems, at least in my limited experience with it, the crux of the KINK when it comes to cuck stories.

The cuck gets off on being shamed and humiliated, his arousal stems from it. The S&H isn't a consequence; it's an impetus.

Maybe not in every story; again I don't read too many of them honestly.
 
Shame and humiliation does zero for me, so there's another "no" from your AH dataset.
Irrespective of the commonality of any given predilection, there'll always be some who say 'nah, leaves me cold, thanks', and that's fine. Vive la difference, and all that. However, I will reiterate that S&H isn't a 'kink', it's a reaction - so, if it does nothing for you, in your case it's an inhibitor, pure and simple.
 
S&H are major turn offs for me. They are things I try hard to keep out of my work. They make sexy shaming celebrities like Leah Remini’s King of Queens character off limits for me. Sorry, people, I don’t think S&H is funny. Don’t even get me started about how I had to punish a villainess played by Parker Posey who was into religious S&H.
 
Irrespective of the commonality of any given predilection, there'll always be some who say 'nah, leaves me cold, thanks', and that's fine. Vive la difference, and all that. However, I will reiterate that S&H isn't a 'kink', it's a reaction - so, if it does nothing for you, in your case it's an inhibitor, pure and simple.
Why do you say "inhibitor"? It's a nothing, which is a different thing.
 
You say 'impetus', I said 'catalyst'. Same thing in this context, I believe.

Potato, potahto I suppose. Or I chose the wrong word. I've been known to do that.

My point was, and again I'm certainly not well versed in the genre, but in the cuck stories I've seen, the S&H is the driving force behind the arousal, and not something that results as a consequence OF his arousal, if that makes sense.
 
Why do you say "inhibitor"? It's a nothing, which is a different thing.
Are you implying that you have zero emotional reaction and never feel shame or humiliation? I find this unlikely. Are you implying that, when faced with shame or humiliation, it has no bearing on whether or not you find something arousing? Again, I find this unlikely. If, when encountering S&H your response is 'ugh, no' then your arousal (presumably) decreases. Thus it is an inhibitor. And I'm talking purely from a psychological+phsyiological POV, not from a conscious decision to say "hmm, kinks I like... girls with big boobs, yes... S&H, that's a no".
Potato, potahto I suppose. Or I chose the wrong word. I've been known to do that.

My point was, and again I'm certainly not well versed in the genre, but in the cuck stories I've seen, the S&H is the driving force behind the arousal, and not something that results as a consequence OF his arousal, if that makes sense.
I believe we're saying the same thing.
 
Are you implying that you have zero emotional reaction and never feel shame or humiliation? I find this unlikely. Are you implying that, when faced with shame or humiliation, it has no bearing on whether or not you find something arousing? Again, I find this unlikely. If, when encountering S&H your response is 'ugh, no' then your arousal (presumably) decreases. Thus it is an inhibitor. And I'm talking purely from a psychological+phsyiological POV, not from a conscious decision to say "hmm, kinks I like... girls with big boobs, yes... S&H, that's a no".
I'm saying shame and humiliation do nothing for me, erotically. They're head-scratchers for me, in terms of an erotic response.

To answer your first question, I rarely feel shame or humiliation about anything, least of all anything sexual, so it's a complete non-starter for me. It really is, huh? I don't get any of it. It's not part of my erotic repertoire, that's for sure.
 
To me, shame and humiliation are tools of the devil. And the devil is not something I want near me when I write erotica for obvious reasons. Muse angels are ok and I can redeem succubi and other demons. My editor is a reformed devil who turned herself back into an angel with help so she’s ok. I hope. But shame and humiliation are not helpful to my writing smut. Or writing in general. They inhibit imagination and to me, that is not a good thing.
 
I'm saying shame and humiliation do nothing for me, erotically. They're head-scratchers for me, in terms of an erotic response.

To answer your first question, I rarely feel shame or humiliation about anything, least of all anything sexual, so it's a complete non-starter for me. It really is, huh? I don't get any of it. It's not part of my erotic repertoire, that's for sure.
Gotcha, that makes sense. It's tough to comment on emotional responses when one so infrequently feels the emotions in question... and, I assume, you don't often see them in folk around you either, in an erotic context that is.
 
As long as me and my partner aren’t the ones shamed or humiliated- all for it.
 
Some people find erotic pleasure in physical pain, which I assume has to do with their 'wiring' as much as their 'programming.' Emotional pain likely gets processed in a similar manner. And then on the other side, some people are mean.
 
I will attempt to be serious for a whole comment. I think part of the reason (some) people like to read about shame and humiliation in porn is part and parcel of why they like porn at all, i.e., the illusion of intimacy. Consuming porn that involves people enjoying each other openly and happily is appealing to most anyone who likes porn at all, even if they consider it vanilla or whatever. Getting to see characters enjoy things that most people would (should?) not can appeal to those with voyeuristic tendencies, as it's like getting a sneak peek at a person's secret mind, which can be even more titillating than seeing them naked. It can manifest as a feeling of increased intimacy, even empathy, or as a form of power-taking (I know your secret!), so it can appeal to a wide variety of kinks, I believe. And I think it more or less bleeds into a lot of the non-con and reluctance and mind control tropes as well.
That's my hypothesis, anyway.
 
Yeah, I accept that shame and humiliation can appeal to voyeurs. But they don’t appeal to me. That’s why I still keep them out of my work. I’m an adult entertainment writer but I don’t keep it a secret. My author avatar characters are pretty obviously the real me. My mother knows what I am and so do my coworkers and my ex wife. God knows also, of course. And pride in a job well done is not a sin to me, nor is being an adult entertainer. So take that, shamers! Leaving this thread now so people will be more comfortable but still lurking. Ethics of my slut nature kicking in.
 
I will attempt to be serious for a whole comment. I think part of the reason (some) people like to read about shame and humiliation in porn is part and parcel of why they like porn at all, i.e., the illusion of intimacy. Consuming porn that involves people enjoying each other openly and happily is appealing to most anyone who likes porn at all, even if they consider it vanilla or whatever. Getting to see characters enjoy things that most people would (should?) not can appeal to those with voyeuristic tendencies, as it's like getting a sneak peek at a person's secret mind, which can be even more titillating than seeing them naked. It can manifest as a feeling of increased intimacy, even empathy, or as a form of power-taking (I know your secret!), so it can appeal to a wide variety of kinks, I believe. And I think it more or less bleeds into a lot of the non-con and reluctance and mind control tropes as well.
That's my hypothesis, anyway.

Well said.

Also, let's be honest.

We're all human. And as such, we often have dark thoughts, dark desires.

Not that we'd act on them. In fact even the idea of acting on them repulses us.

That said, stories (or films, TV etc) can be a perfectly healthy outlet for those dark desires.

It allows us to live them out vicariously, in a safe environment, with no danger of actually hurting anyone. Or ourselves being hurt.

Stories allow us to act on desires, dark or otherwise, without consequence. Without fear of reprisal.

There are exceptions of course, but most people have a firm grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality.

I fully understand the dangers of extremes, and also fully sympathize with those who find some forms of darker desires presented as "entertainment" offensive. I truly do, and after talking with some people personally, I've come to a much better understanding of their feelings on things like Non Con, for instance.

And I've read some NC stuff that frankly sickens me, "fantasy" or not. And it's almost always from a male who makes me fear for every woman who's ever come in contact with him.

In the end, we all have to decide what is "acceptable" when it comes to some of the more touchy subjects. I know more than a few folks that find incest fantasies "icky and disgusting" as well.

And again, I've seen plenty that are.

But I do my best to try not to judge a writer by their genre and instead, the merits, or lack thereof, of their story.
 
Well said.

Also, let's be honest.

We're all human. And as such, we often have dark thoughts, dark desires.

Not that we'd act on them. In fact even the idea of acting on them repulses us.

That said, stories (or films, TV etc) can be a perfectly healthy outlet for those dark desires.

It allows us to live them out vicariously, in a safe environment, with no danger of actually hurting anyone. Or ourselves being hurt.

Stories allow us to act on desires, dark or otherwise, without consequence. Without fear of reprisal.

There are exceptions of course, but most people have a firm grasp on the difference between fantasy and reality.

I fully understand the dangers of extremes, and also fully sympathize with those who find some forms of darker desires presented as "entertainment" offensive. I truly do, and after talking with some people personally, I've come to a much better understanding of their feelings on things like Non Con, for instance.

And I've read some NC stuff that frankly sickens me, "fantasy" or not. And it's almost always from a male who makes me fear for every woman who's ever come in contact with him.

In the end, we all have to decide what is "acceptable" when it comes to some of the more touchy subjects. I know more than a few folks that find incest fantasies "icky and disgusting" as well.

And again, I've seen plenty that are.

But I do my best to try not to judge a writer by their genre and instead, the merits, or lack thereof, of their story.
Agreed. Inferior drag queens are not people I want entertaining a certain audience. Mrs. Doubtfire was not such an inferior drag queen.
 
As in all things, sexual arousal and safe context are critical factors. In life, we fear shame and humiliation and will react negatively to them.

But... in the privacy of his home, a man may enjoy the specific humiliation of being a cuck. A religious housewife may find a shameful thrill in being treated like a dirty whore, and may even fantasise about being outed in public, the priest denouncing her before fucking her in front of the congregation...
 
I’ll put it this way. I once based a fanfic character on a popular science fiction heroine character created by a science fiction writer who founded a religion. Specifics are not necessarily necessary. However the main villain of the series in which the character is featured (let’s call him Lombar) enjoyed shaming his character (Moam) by calling her a whore. Moam thus hates being shamed. She ends up in a relationship with a hero named Jet who opposes Lombar and together they train a brothel full of hookers in martial arts to further oppose Lombar and his followers, the main one of whom is named Soltan Gris. It is canon for the series that Moam only has sexual relations with the hero Jet. But in my fanfic the heroine based on Moam is bisexual and polyamorous. So she would have sex with the hookers also, some of them anyway. That one into shame is just a temporary friend. And my character based on Moam calls herself a slut, not a whore, as per The Ethical Slut, her polyamory manual. This reminds herself she does not feel shame about what she is.

I’m glad I’m getting your attention. That was the only reason I brought up religion and drag queens (please note I’m okay with drag queens in general but not necessarily inferior ones). If you want to continue this discussion please go ahead. If my using S&H on you is bothering you, please let me know. :D
 
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