Celibacy

query said:

Views expressed here by hussar are expressed in a way that is less palatable to western ears but the concept is valid. For a MUCH kinder gentler an equally valid approach that will basically will yield the same result siee married man sex life by Athol Kaye.

Traditional roles were working comfortably for thousands of years for reasons.... sure you can put a modern spin on it but if you throw the baby out with the bathwater you get what we have and modern times which is broken homes all over the place.

Yeah yeah plenty of people are going to jump up and down and scream about the patriarchy and how women have been mistreated for eon's on only through modern feminism have they finally acheived happiness. Really? They're happy???They don't look like it. And I can tell you statistically their children don't like it.

SOME HARD TRUTHS ARE VERY HARD TO EXPRESS WITHOUT SOUNDING MISOGYNISTIC AS THE TERM IS APPLIED THESE DAYS.

If you want to believe that the best way to pick up a girl is to be her friend zone...cater obsequeously to her from the friend zone and then work your friendship carefully and methodically from the friend zone into a sexual relationship: Good luck with that

There's another blog that's also fairly gentle called gaming your wife.

The concept is you have to build attraction with women if you want to get laid...Taking out the garbage and caring for the children and doing dishes will not get you laid. The recent study was designed to prove that men who take the burden of housework off of modern women get laid more often and it ended up prove resoundingly exactly the opposite.

Women like strong men. The longer you accept a celibate marital bed the less attractive you will be as a man to her.

I don't think I would go with the approach of "put out or I'll get a mistress" but if she's not putting out you need to take care of yourself go to the gym get some nice clothes get a good haircut spend some time out with the boys let her wonder whether you're having an affair or not.

Women like to say that men don't like women that are too easy that we like women that are hard to get.


That's b******* of course all men love easy women we like getting laid.

What they're doing is projecting....all women like men who are hard to get so be hard to get don't be obsequeous.

I finally learned ...but I learn too little too late.

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Any time you make an argument using the term "all women or all men" the point you are trying to make loses its validity. No group be it men or women fall into categories of "all". Your opinions are based on YOUR experiences. In your experience you have come to the conclusion that a woman only finds a man attractive if he fucks any women he can get into bed with. The legions of divorced couples who have gone through infidelity would strongly disagree with you on that point I believe.
For me the strongest aspect of sex is the emotional intensity I achieve with someone I love. Sex strongly reinforces the closeness and builds on it. Yes, orgasms are great but quite frankly I can give myself pretty damn good orgasms. If I got bored and needed a partner to achieve an orgasm I can hire a woman for sex. The lack of a sexual component in a marriage curtails the ability to strongly reinforce the emotional bond between a man and a woman.
In my situation if I took a mistress it would only be a matter of time before my emotional connection with her would be stronger than with my wife. At that point it would only be a matter of time before a divorce happened.
I am prepared for a divorce emotionally at this point but as I said earlier I am not willing to blow up my kid’s lives so I can have great sex.
I honestly believe a large number of women do not have sex drives comparable with most men. Instinctively, they know that it would be hard to have a relationship with a man if they started out with, "I love you but we aren't going to have sex very much." So, to achieve to the goal of marriage and kids they fuck like minks until the kids arrive. Once the kids arrive, some women then feel they have achieved their goal in the relationship and the sexual component withers or dies completely. Different societies and cultures have dealt with this sexual disparity in different ways. You have anything from polygamist relationships, to tacitly accepted mistress relationships.
Before the thread devolved into chest thumping, 'meet me after school by the bike rack so I can kick your ass', the OP was looking for the reassurance that she wasn't the only person going through the pain of a marriage without an intimate component. The answer is yes she isn't the only one. If all she or any other person needs out of life is a great orgasm than yes, the answer is simple, divorce or have an affair. However, when you get married and have kids your decisions in life affect them as well. If having an orgasm is ALL that is important to you then fuck away and hope you don't get caught. What neither you nor hussar have addressed is the component of children in a relationship. While the OP didn't mention children I strongly suspect that she has them. I don't believe too many people would suffer the angst of a sexless relationship if children aren't involved. So you can blame feminism all you want to delude yourself into believe that women want to be treated like mindless cum depositories but did you know the fastest growing group of divorced couples are over the age of 55? And did you know that the number one complaint of the women in that age group are? Their husbands don't need a wife, they need a dishwasher and maid. So maybe you can find a partner with no self-esteem who wants to be treated like a servant who just can't wait to do your dishes, pick up after your mess, and has her legs spring loaded to open up for you at a glance, but me personally I want a real life woman not a fuck toy made in China.
And maybe my expectations are too high who knows. All I want is a woman who is self-confident, funny, knows how sexy she is and has a sex drive so high I'm taking Viagra like tik tacks to keep up. So maybe all men are delusional when it comes to expectations in a partner.

Involuntary, but also self-imposed celibacy on my part, for many moons now.... due to family distress, too much going on with my live-in offspring and grands, sort of took over any independence, privacy, intimacy for me.
Although the olde libido kicks in still, every now and again, and I find myself taking matters into my own hands


and query, ^5 to you!!

This is a powerful thread and brings up a lot of issues and suggested solutions. Although I understand Hussar's posts and the reasoning behind them, even respect the opinion's shared, I can see why others do not.

Truth is, we don't live in that society anymore, where the man dictates what the woman will do to please him. Chores are a shared thing in most households because the whole dynamic has changed. Women didn't work before. Their primary functions were to keep house, care for kids and her man.

I'm not sure that I agree that a man that helps is not sexually appealing to a woman. If mine would lift a hand, I'd be more willing to give him sex, hell even an awesome bj. I'm tired by the end of the day......Yet, I'm not the norm. I hardly ever deny sex for many reasons, none of which being because it's so damned amazingly awesome either.

I'm on the fence on this one and some women may throw stones at me. I don't really understand why women cut a man off and expect him to remain celibate. Now, I realize there are a ton of exceptions; medical issues, being overworked with no support, etc..... And I also realize life is not about sex, but intimacy is a very important element to a marriage and your partner wants to feel as though they are still desirable to you.

Touch is a wonderful thing, when that is removed one can begin to shrivel up inside and an emptiness takes over that is hard to deny. I wouldn't think forcing your partner to have sex by giving them an ultimatum is going to make that emptiness go away. Who wants to have sex with someone that isn't enjoying it? I think many of us have become skilled at masturbation which gives us an orgasm, but doesn't replace the desire of another.

I'm really hoping that the theory that a man has to be a domineering jerk for women to find him attractive isn't true. I couldn't do that, it's not the sort of man I want to be. I have a very clear idea of the sort of man I want to be and it's very important to how I see myself and my worth as a human being. I could never abandon that just to get sex. I would have no self respect. If it means I'll be alone and celibate forever, well that is hard but the alternative is worse.

I was forced to be celibate for one year. I was made to wear a chastity device and not allowed to masturbate for an entire year. Maybe not the same thing, but I consider myself to be very sexual. I did have plenty of wet dreams in that time but it was never from me touching myself or from any form of penetration

devinity7 said:

This is a powerful thread and brings up a lot of issues and suggested solutions. Although I understand Hussar's posts and the reasoning behind them, even respect the opinion's shared, I can see why others do not.

Truth is, we don't live in that society anymore, where the man dictates what the woman will do to please him. Chores are a shared thing in most households because the whole dynamic has changed. Women didn't work before. Their primary functions were to keep house, care for kids and her man.

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I am glad you found some wisdom in my words.

As for your second paragraph: It strikes me that ought to never care what society we live in, but act according to the principles, virtues, and positions which best secure our happiness and well being. It is manifestly obvious that this "egalitarian" perspective in relationships is a failing one. Men, simply put, do not find their purpose furthered by house work, and women are far better served by domestic affairs. "Equality" is largely a joke, because it is not equal to impose burdens upon the sexes that they do not wish to endure.

This is not to say that a man can't sweep a floor from time to time, or wash some windows. Not at all. Helping out can have its point, and as you say, it might even be "rewarded". But let's be honest: There is a reason why men and women have kept to their roles for thousands of years, much of which is invariant over cultures.

I'm on the fence on this one and some women may throw stones at me. I don't really understand why women cut a man off and expect him to remain celibate. Now, I realize there are a ton of exceptions; medical issues, being overworked with no support, etc..... And I also realize life is not about sex, but intimacy is a very important element to a marriage and your partner wants to feel as though they are still desirable to you.

Touch is a wonderful thing, when that is removed one can begin to shrivel up inside and an emptiness takes over that is hard to deny. I wouldn't think forcing your partner to have sex by giving them an ultimatum is going to make that emptiness go away. Who wants to have sex with someone that isn't enjoying it? I think many of us have become skilled at masturbation which gives us an orgasm, but doesn't replace the desire of another.

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Well put.

HussarVanburen said:

This is not to say that a man can't sweep a floor from time to time, or wash some windows. Not at all. Helping out can have its point, and as you say, it might even be "rewarded". But let's be honest: There is a reason why men and women have kept to their roles for thousands of years, much of which is invariant over cultures.

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While history interests me, I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue your point. I agree that a man had a specific role and so did the woman. The problem is, as long as men aren't the sole bread winners for the family, this lifestyle that you speak of can't ever be.

Well put.

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Thank You!

So, here I go reading through...again!
I cannot quote anyone, since I'm not getting the drift of some of the comments/thoughts, and I don't want to tread on any celibate toes
BUT, this is 2013, we have evolved.... the caveman mentality and the slung-over-the-shoulder mate have become extinct... now we are equals in aspects and functions unthinkable in eons past. Are there roles that have been assigned to us, due to our gender, at birth? With unsettling thoughts like these to boggle the mind, celibacy might just become the new trend.

HussarVanburen said:

I am glad you found some wisdom in my words.

As for your second paragraph: It strikes me that ought to never care what society we live in, but act according to the principles, virtues, and positions which best secure our happiness and well being. It is manifestly obvious that this "egalitarian" perspective in relationships is a failing one. Men, simply put, do not find their purpose furthered by house work, and women are far better served by domestic affairs. "Equality" is largely a joke, because it is not equal to impose burdens upon the sexes that they do not wish to endure.

This is not to say that a man can't sweep a floor from time to time, or wash some windows. Not at all. Helping out can have its point, and as you say, it might even be "rewarded". But let's be honest: There is a reason why men and women have kept to their roles for thousands of years, much of which is invariant over cultures.



Well put.

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Sorry Hussar but I have to disagree with most of what you have posted thus far.

We all have different reasons for going through celibacy just as we all have different dynamics in each relationship. What principles, virtues, and positions we hold to make us happy differ as our personalities and culture and circumstances does.

Women have come a long way and will continue to make strides to being equals and more. I guess I should limit that comment to here in the US as I am not versed enough for the rest of the world. I've heard that there are more women in colleges and universities now than men and I think the positions of leadership will shift in the future.

The roles of men and women are changing.

Back to the celibacy issue though I can't help but wish that there were more sex going on!

HussarVanburen said:

Because your woman must serve you irrespective of her desire to do so.

The entire purpose of marriage is to have a woman whom you have unlimited sexual access to. Otherwise, there is no purpose whatsoever. It's a duty for a wife to please her husband.

Moreover, if your wife isn't giving it up, why don't you have a girl on the side? So long as she's not married, it is not adultery. And no woman can complain if she won't fuck you that you're fucking someone else. This is, I suppose, the option for men not manly enough to demand what's theirs. At the very least, they'll still be satisfied.

In other words, you have two options:

1. Man up and make your wife give you what's yours by right.

2. Take up with a mistress. Be sure she's not married.

You're a coward or half a man if you do not do one of these things.

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Ummm. What year is this and where are we?

HussarVanburen said:

You're very much welcome.



Fair enough. I am inclined to think that things ought to follow an ideal pattern established in the logic and purpose of the institution.



I don't know why everyone insists on testing whether I have double standards, when it is quite clear that I whole heartedly endorse double standards. They are there for a reason.

So the answer is: No. The man is the active principle in the relationship. It is therefore wrong for the woman to seek sexual gratification outside the relationship, even if the man is not interested in her. The possessed does not have the right of action.

However, okay, let's talk "hypothetical egalitarianism" (I do not endorse this reasoning). If a man is truly not interested in sex with his wife, and his wife wants sex, then what precisely does he object to her whoring around? I mean, what's the problem for him? She wants X, he doesn't want X, why can't she get X with someone else?

It would be a sort of pathological selfishness of deprivation and refusal. If you so desire to refuse, then allow it to be done in another fashion.

Of course, as I note: I don't endorse this when it comes to women. Only when it comes to men. A woman has no right to demand sex from her husband. She owes -him-, not the other way around. But I question why any man would not DESIRE sex with his wife, when the the big reason to HAVE a wife is to have her open to your sexual advances.

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Wow. Youre an ass

agree......

mainegirl said:

Wow. Youre an ass

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Agree....much..........

Well since you've got it all figured out and have given up on the possibility of sex with your wife keep doing what you did it been doing and you'll keep getting what you got.

Nitpicking at the semantics of a GENERALIZATION tells you didn't comment here for advice, rather an audience for your self pity-party. ALL tigers (with rare exceptions) are black and orange stripes. ALL panthers are solitary hunters. ALL wolves and jackals hunt in packs.

Generalizations don't apparition in a vacuum. Yes, on the S.A.T. test ALL sweeping generalization are the wrong answer but ONLY because one of the other three is better.

ALL persons who dismiss out of hand the friendly voice of weary experience, glean nothing from their interactions with others.

I think Hussar's point is not that you cheat either rather that is she TRULY is not willing to under any circumstances engage in a sexual relationship with you, why SHOULDN'T she agree to some other accommodation such as an open marriage?

I suggested nothing about actual cheating, rather be a man with a spine that COULD get a girl. If you truly have dismissed the possibility of sex ever with the mother of your children, you should start practicing now. I assure you, you are no where near ready to do the things required (beyond wistfully fantasizing) to be the sort of guy women bed, monogamously or not.

Took me a YEAR post divorce to even try and that was PATHETIC. Believe me your "oh, whoa is me, I was a long suffering, patient, kind, and faithful hubby, and the lil woman just didn't appreciate me" schtick will be ineffective.

Unless there are EXCEPTIONAL medical or organic-based psychological reasons for her "loss of libido" the problem is not the ring on her finger constricting blood flow to her clit...its not pre-menopausal hormones dampening her arousal....

You aren't going to like this...(I didn't when in sober reflection I realized this about myself)


The problem is you. You are not sexy. To her.

Which is indeed tragic, because you once were.

I don't think you 'mistreat' or neglect your wife. I suspect, in fact, you are fairly solicitous of her needs. Probably overly so.

Two guys walk into a bar: (This is not a joke- it's a parable.)

There's a beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful, charming, humorous, (yada-yada ad infinitum) chick at the bar. She had already ruled out the dregs in the room for either a one night stand or marriage material. (Oh and the chick is ovulating.) (Yeah I know you didn't see a "chick". I'm talking about the lady....You know... The classy one at the bar.)

You and I position ourselves on either side of her. Since we are both debonaire, intelligent, charming, kool and sexy, she appreciates our attention and banters in turn with us each.

You gush (sincere) compliments.

I smirk a little and suggest I've had better but she'll do for a Wednesday.

You buy her a drink.

I jokingly offer her a handful of the free peanuts.

She mentions car trouble, you offer your handyman skills. Cleverly, this gives you the opportunity to give her your number in case she needs "anything".

I muse aloud at the prospect of finding her. Alone. Vulnerable. At night on deserted highway.

Rose-girl comes by you buy one for "M'Lady'.

I answer an incoming text.

Anyway the point is I may not get the girl, but you DEFINITELY won't.

Believe me I wish that your methodology worked. I have the soul of a white knight myself. If only through hard work dedication and perseverance we could win the fair maiden.

Women don't work like that. And yes I do mean all women.

Look at it from their perspective needy is not sexy. Needy does not make them feel protected.

And your defensive display of assuming the kinds of women that I would be attracted to and or be in the mood to bed, says more about you than it does about me.

I can't really see there being anything wrong with me being the kind of man that women wants to cook breakfast for.

I CAN sew, iron, cook (better than nearly ever woman I have ever met) do laundry, scrub toilets (at MY -stupid- choice the mother of my children never had to lift a finger to clean any the three bathrooms for 19 years)... I was quoting SCIENCE about women NOT finding male-maids sexy. A study commissioned to PROVE that men SHOULD help around the house to get laid PROVED the opposite...5000 respondents is a VERY significant sample size. Subsequent studies by non-believers backed that up. If your white knight complex COMPELS you to clean, make SURE she doesn't see you do it and hope she thinks she has a magic house. And do some manly chores she DOES see ie mow the grass, wrench on the car, shoot something..ya know.

By the way I think it's awfully noble for you to sit in quietly fap yourself for years until the kids are all grown up so that they don't have to have a broken home.

You mentioned that your wife would sense that you would fall for your mistress because that's the kind of guy you are. ALL in emotionally. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Me too.

You don't think she senses the fantasies in your head are not about her? Hell mine were about my wife and she STILL complained about the distance. Which from my perspective was cause only by her reticence for sex.

Biding your time is not an effective stay married strategy. You forget that any given time she can decide that she has a libido after all.. Just not for you. That's what mine did after telling me that she was sorry that she wasn't feeling that horny anymore because her hormones probably postmenopausal blah blah. Didn't have any trouble falling for a poser bad boy. Guy buys himself a motorcycle hangs around and bars buying drinks.

I would suggest you assume your wife is celibate now or in the future. Humans are sexual,

We separated so she could live happily ever after under a bridge with a troll..(SHE had no problem dragging my kids to sleep on the floor of her boyfriends one bedroom hovel...and lest you think I simply got the 'wrong' woman for nurturing children, I married her BECAUSE of how she treated her son. She was REVERED in school/church/soccer/neighborhood circles as the IDEAL mom.

I decided that I was not going to allow my wife's choice to have an affair and run off with a troll to leave me with a the life of celibacy. So I had to learn how to get laid and agonized (as will you) about how to find meaning in meaningless sex.



I take back the suggestion of Athol Kaye...he quotes Roissy and you are years of enlightenment away from agreeing with Roissy...I'm slowly headed that way.

Spend less time justifying your cowardice with asserting (yes, in a loving oh so appropriate way) yourself with the wifey, read "gamingmywife". Best case it flips your switch and she puts out you get laid everyone's happy. Absolute worst case you at least get some practice gaming women. Your wife to woman isn't she? You will need to practice trust me.

Yeah, yeah I know...when "The Right" girl comes along she will sense your pure heart and want to live happily ever after with you, and only low self esteem girls would fall for cheap (proven) tricks...

Thats why sales and advertising costs so much because it hardly ever works.

I don't know how long you've been married but according to your plan (assuming she doesn't f*** up your plan by f****** someone else), you will have been off the market a LONG time.

Buddy, lemme tell you about chicks these days ...yes -exasperated- ALL of them. They SEEM completely different in what they want how the interact with men, their (collective and unanimous) feelings about sex and sexuality...

Heres a gift, you will find it easier to get laid then to get a girl to simply show up for coffee or lunch...and FORGET about buying them dinner....I'm still scratching my head at that....my daughter explained calling something a date is "Too much pressure." She suggested just "ask them to 'hang out'..??"

You see it doesn't really matter if these so called modern women are any different than they've been throughout the ages. Or rather my perception of them has just changed.

The bottom line is my old way of doing things.....which by the way is how you are dealing with your wife... just doesn't work.

whisperman71 said:

Your opinions are based on YOUR experiences.

um, no...I (like you) thought I knew it all. I thought what women SAID they wanted (stability, security, kindness solicitousness WAS what worked.) I have read a LOT since and observed a LOT since showing that my perceptions of experiences were all wrong

In your experience you have come to the conclusion that a woman only finds a man attractive if he fucks any women he can get into bed with. The legions of divorced couples who have gone through infidelity would strongly disagree with you on that point I believe.

You are projecting your own shit here. They like men who CAN fuck any woman he wants and CHOOSES her. They ALL like Brad Pitt because he GOT Angelina Jolie... Arguing the minutiae of PSYCHOLOGY with you is pointless you don't have the most basic grounding in women. Can you at least accept the premise that you live with a woman and have NO IDEA how or if it is possible to build some arousal in her? And that actual social scientists (usually while trying to prove the opposite) have shown what does and doesn't work in male/female sexual dynamics?

For me the strongest aspect of sex is the emotional intensity I achieve with someone I love. Sex strongly reinforces the closeness and builds on it. Yes, orgasms are great but quite frankly I can give myself pretty damn good orgasms. If I got bored and needed a partner to achieve an orgasm I can hire a woman for sex. The lack of a sexual component in a marriage curtails the ability to strongly reinforce the emotional bond between a man and a woman.
In my situation if I took a mistress it would only be a matter of time before my emotional connection with her would be stronger than with my wife. At that point it would only be a matter of time before a divorce happened.

I, too struggle with the casual sexual nature of modern relationships, but even if you meet your ideal woman under the ideal circumstances and "win" her you STILL have to manage to maintain her interest in you sexually.

My wife and I were relatively well known sex-bloggers at one point the essence of the blog was how to keep it sexually interesting after decades. That was a wonderful time but turned out to be a swan song ultimately, when the old patterns we had with each other crept back in.


I am prepared for a divorce emotionally

No, you really aren't. No one is...but with your delusional misperceptions about women, when you are "free" and find out that women don't want what you are prepared to sell, it is wrenching.

at this point, I am not willing to blow up my kid’s lives so I can have great sex.

A) you don't get to decide in this day and age of female friendly divorce courts and rampant government assistance in the process and the promise of "free stuff" if they can only claim single status..you are one half of the marriage and you report you are checked out. what makes you think she is invested? Women do a MUCH better job of grieving the loss of a marriage IN the marriage and they are QUICK to cut it loose when they decide THEY HAVE HAD ENOUGH! whatever that means.

B) Being single is no guarantee of great sex. Sex with new people is awkward when you are (even celibate) sorta used to something else. Sex with anyone is both easier and harder than you will have imagined.

I honestly believe a large number of women do not have sex drives comparable with most men. Instinctively, they know that it would be hard to have a relationship with a man if they started out with, "I love you but we aren't going to have sex very much." So, to achieve to the goal of marriage and kids they fuck like minks until the kids arrive. Once the kids arrive, some women then feel they have achieved their goal in the relationship and the sexual component withers or dies completely.

Speaking of generalizing from one's own (perception) of one's experience. You then extrapolate it to a "large number" of women. How many? I think one of God's cruelest jokes is mismatched libidos. But anecdotal from YEARS on lit, an awful lot of hubbys aren't putting out or putting out well.

You are actually making Hussar's point. (not that I agree with you or necessarily him vis-a-vis "duty") but if she married you and viewed sex as a duty to be endured to get the prize of marriage, why do you no longer command the respect from her that she would want to "fuck like a minx" to KEEP her marriage. It is because you have emasculated yourself every time you accept without question (in love and kindness) her avoidance. And Women (all of them) find eunuchs un-sexy. It is a death spiral, but reversible.

Sex is wonderful. Some version of it feels good for all. when there is not sex in a marriage there is usually anger and resentment somewhere.

Different societies and cultures have dealt with this sexual disparity in different ways. You have anything from polygamist relationships, to tacitly accepted mistress relationships.


What you DON'T have in any of the examples you mentioned is a culture where men agree to be eunuchs in their marriages




Before the thread devolved into chest thumping, 'meet me after school by the bike rack so I can kick your ass', the OP was looking for the reassurance that she wasn't the only person going through the pain of a marriage without an intimate component. The answer is yes she isn't the only one. If all she or any other person needs out of life is a great orgasm than yes, the answer is simple, divorce or have an affair. However, when you get married and have kids your decisions in life affect them as well. If having an orgasm is ALL that is important to you then fuck away and hope you don't get caught. neither you nor hussar have addressed is the component of children in a relationship.


I am addressing them, believe me mine have suffered. "FOR THE CHILDREN' is always a red herring. The best thing you can do is rekindle a sexual relationship with their mother. Sex from a theological, psychological, biological, and cultural basis for EONS is the POINT of marriage. It is the glue that binds, the patch that repairs..without it you are demonstrating to your children how to "get along" with a roommate and setting them up for relationship FAILURE.

y While the OP didn't mention children I strongly suspect that she has them. I don't believe too many people would suffer the angm all you want to delude yourself into believe that women want to be treated like mindless cum depositories but did you know the fastest growing group of divorced couples are over the age of 55? And did you know that the number one complaint of the women in that age group are? Their husbands don't need a wife, they need a dishwasher and maid. So maybe you can find a partner with no self-esteem who wants to be treated like a servant who just can't wait to do your dishes, pick up after your mess, and has her legs spring loaded to open up for you at a glance, but me personally I want a real life woman not a fuck toy made in China.

I call bullshit..on either your sources or the statements from the women..You are telling me that women born raised and conditioned pre-feminism 1950's SUDDENLY are tired of picking up oscars socks? BUllshit I say.

Its fastest growing because its all the married couples LEFT...all the rest of us already are divorced.

And maybe my expectations are too high who knows. All I want is a woman who is self-confident, funny, knows how sexy she is and has a sex drive so high I'm taking Viagra like tik tacks to keep up. So maybe all men are delusional when it comes to expectations in a partner.

And you meet her, what are your plans when (inevitably) the sex slows..(just a bit at first..not drastic, i can handle this...i'll just masturbate a "leave her be" till she is "ready")

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MizTabby said:

So, here I go reading through...again!
I cannot quote anyone, since I'm not getting the drift of some of the comments/thoughts, and I don't want to tread on any celibate toes
BUT, this is 2013, we have evolved.... the caveman mentality and the slung-over-the-shoulder mate have become extinct... now we are equals in aspects and functions unthinkable in eons past. Are there roles that have been assigned to us, due to our gender, at birth? With unsettling thoughts like these to boggle the mind, celibacy might just become the new trend.

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with respect mizz tabby, I do not concur...we are in the midst of a very recent (in evolutionary terms a nanosecond) cultural and social experiment. We cannot say whether we have evolved or not in the process. Only when we see positive results in society at large and in the purported happiness of the individuals (in the aggregate, of course no change suits EVERYBODY, but we could measure objectively whether people report more feelings of fulfillment on balance or not.)

We are not the first society to use ones mind and reasoning to design a better society that purports to supplant and improve an existing set of mores and traditions.

Its possible that we can decide to use are higher level brain functions to completely suppress and eliminate any vestiges of any biological hard-wiring that exists in all other mammals.

that said, how about we start by "evolving" to the idea that tall muscular men should not be even a tertiary ranked desirability factor since modern machinery and stepladders have replaced them.

Also, Cesarean sections and baby formula has eliminated the need to select a female based on curves, so lets all be more open minded, shall we?

query said:

Well since you've got it all figured out and have given up on the possibility of sex with your wife keep doing what you did it been doing and you'll keep getting what you got.

Nitpicking at the semantics of a GENERALIZATION tells you didn't comment here for advice, rather an audience for your self pity-party. ALL tigers (with rare exceptions) are black and orange stripes. ALL panthers are solitary hunters. ALL wolves and jackals hunt in packs.

Generalizations don't apparition in a vacuum. Yes, on the S.A.T. test ALL sweeping generalization are the wrong answer but ONLY because one of the other three is better.

ALL persons who dismiss out of hand the friendly voice of weary experience, glean nothing from their interactions with others.

I think Hussar's point is not that you cheat either rather that is she TRULY is not willing to under any circumstances engage in a sexual relationship with you, why SHOULDN'T she agree to some other accommodation such as an open marriage?

I suggested nothing about actual cheating, rather be a man with a spine that COULD get a girl. If you truly have dismissed the possibility of sex ever with the mother of your children, you should start practicing now. I assure you, you are no where near ready to do the things required (beyond wistfully fantasizing) to be the sort of guy women bed, monogamously or not.

Took me a YEAR post divorce to even try and that was PATHETIC. Believe me your "oh, whoa is me, I was a long suffering, patient, kind, and faithful hubby, and the lil woman just didn't appreciate me" schtick will be ineffective.

Unless there are EXCEPTIONAL medical or organic-based psychological reasons for her "loss of libido" the problem is not the ring on her finger constricting blood flow to her clit...its not pre-menopausal hormones dampening her arousal....

You aren't going to like this...(I didn't when in sober reflection I realized this about myself)


The problem is you. You are not sexy. To her.

Which is indeed tragic, because you once were.

I don't think you 'mistreat' or neglect your wife. I suspect, in fact, you are fairly solicitous of her needs. Probably overly so.

Two guys walk into a bar: (This is not a joke- it's a parable.)

There's a beautiful, intelligent, thoughtful, charming, humorous, (yada-yada ad infinitum) chick at the bar. She had already ruled out the dregs in the room for either a one night stand or marriage material. (Oh and the chick is ovulating.) (Yeah I know you didn't see a "chick". I'm talking about the lady....You know... The classy one at the bar.)

You and I position ourselves on either side of her. Since we are both debonaire, intelligent, charming, kool and sexy, she appreciates our attention and banters in turn with us each.

You gush (sincere) compliments.

I smirk a little and suggest I've had better but she'll do for a Wednesday.

You buy her a drink.

I jokingly offer her a handful of the free peanuts.

She mentions car trouble, you offer your handyman skills. Cleverly, this gives you the opportunity to give her your number in case she needs "anything".

I muse aloud at the prospect of finding her. Alone. Vulnerable. At night on deserted highway.

Rose-girl comes by you buy one for "M'Lady'.

I answer an incoming text.

Anyway the point is I may not get the girl, but you DEFINITELY won't.

Believe me I wish that your methodology worked. I have the soul of a white knight myself. If only through hard work dedication and perseverance we could win the fair maiden.

Women don't work like that. And yes I do mean all women.

Look at it from their perspective needy is not sexy. Needy does not make them feel protected.

And your defensive display of assuming the kinds of women that I would be attracted to and or be in the mood to bed, says more about you than it does about me.

I can't really see there being anything wrong with me being the kind of man that women wants to cook breakfast for.

I CAN sew, iron, cook (better than nearly ever woman I have ever met) do laundry, scrub toilets (at MY -stupid- choice the mother of my children never had to lift a finger to clean any the three bathrooms for 19 years)... I was quoting SCIENCE about women NOT finding male-maids sexy. A study commissioned to PROVE that men SHOULD help around the house to get laid PROVED the opposite...5000 respondents is a VERY significant sample size. Subsequent studies by non-believers backed that up. If your white knight complex COMPELS you to clean, make SURE she doesn't see you do it and hope she thinks she has a magic house. And do some manly chores she DOES see ie mow the grass, wrench on the car, shoot something..ya know.

By the way I think it's awfully noble for you to sit in quietly fap yourself for years until the kids are all grown up so that they don't have to have a broken home.

You mentioned that your wife would sense that you would fall for your mistress because that's the kind of guy you are. ALL in emotionally. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Me too.

You don't think she senses the fantasies in your head are not about her? Hell mine were about my wife and she STILL complained about the distance. Which from my perspective was cause only by her reticence for sex.

Biding your time is not an effective stay married strategy. You forget that any given time she can decide that she has a libido after all.. Just not for you. That's what mine did after telling me that she was sorry that she wasn't feeling that horny anymore because her hormones probably postmenopausal blah blah. Didn't have any trouble falling for a poser bad boy. Guy buys himself a motorcycle hangs around and bars buying drinks.

I would suggest you assume your wife is celibate now or in the future. Humans are sexual,

We separated so she could live happily ever after under a bridge with a troll..(SHE had no problem dragging my kids to sleep on the floor of her boyfriends one bedroom hovel...and lest you think I simply got the 'wrong' woman for nurturing children, I married her BECAUSE of how she treated her son. She was REVERED in school/church/soccer/neighborhood circles as the IDEAL mom.

I decided that I was not going to allow my wife's choice to have an affair and run off with a troll to leave me with a the life of celibacy. So I had to learn how to get laid and agonized (as will you) about how to find meaning in meaningless sex.



I take back the suggestion of Athol Kaye...he quotes Roissy and you are years of enlightenment away from agreeing with Roissy...I'm slowly headed that way.

Spend less time justifying your cowardice with asserting (yes, in a loving oh so appropriate way) yourself with the wifey, read "gamingmywife". Best case it flips your switch and she puts out you get laid everyone's happy. Absolute worst case you at least get some practice gaming women. Your wife to woman isn't she? You will need to practice trust me.

Yeah, yeah I know...when "The Right" girl comes along she will sense your pure heart and want to live happily ever after with you, and only low self esteem girls would fall for cheap (proven) tricks...

Thats why sales and advertising costs so much because it hardly ever works.

I don't know how long you've been married but according to your plan (assuming she doesn't f*** up your plan by f****** someone else), you will have been off the market a LONG time.

Buddy, lemme tell you about chicks these days ...yes -exasperated- ALL of them. They SEEM completely different in what they want how the interact with men, their (collective and unanimous) feelings about sex and sexuality...

Heres a gift, you will find it easier to get laid then to get a girl to simply show up for coffee or lunch...and FORGET about buying them dinner....I'm still scratching my head at that....my daughter explained calling something a date is "Too much pressure." She suggested just "ask them to 'hang out'..??"

You see it doesn't really matter if these so called modern women are any different than they've been throughout the ages. Or rather my perception of them has just changed.

The bottom line is my old way of doing things.....which by the way is how you are dealing with your wife... just doesn't work.

Click to expand...

Well one thing's for certain: Why your first wife became celibate is not a story we're going to see on Unsolved Mysteries.

Ever considered decaf?

devinity7 said:

While history interests me, I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue your point. I agree that a man had a specific role and so did the woman. The problem is, as long as men aren't the sole bread winners for the family, this lifestyle that you speak of can't ever be.

Thank You!

Click to expand...

Achieving a single bread-winning household is actually easier DONE than SAID. The idea that we can't afford it is largely a myth. This has been established repeatedly, and it is largely due to the "belief" that it persists, not the reality. Besides, even if it does take some tightening of the belt, the better relationship one gains from it is worth it.

Regardless, women do actually spend more time at home even in our current system. It just means they must do a sloppier job, spend less time on things that matter, and have more altercations with their husbands over the whole mess. Why not simply give them the freedom to be everything to a small amount of people - their loved ones - and not nothing to a large group of people - their job - who give absolutely a fucking God damn about them.

HussarVanburen said:

Achieving a single bread-winning household is actually easier DONE than SAID. The idea that we can't afford it is largely a myth. This has been established repeatedly, and it is largely due to the "belief" that it persists, not the reality. Besides, even if it does take some tightening of the belt, the better relationship one gains from it is worth it.

Regardless, women do actually spend more time at home even in our current system. It just means they must do a sloppier job, spend less time on things that matter, and have more altercations with their husbands over the whole mess. Why not simply give them the freedom to be everything to a small amount of people - their loved ones - and not nothing to a large group of people - their job - who give absolutely a fucking God damn about them.

Click to expand...

Explain to me how it's easier done than said. First off, I'm curious to know where you are from. Perhaps that explains your opinions regarding this issue. I realize that we have this social problem of keeping up with the Jone's, yet things are much more costly now than they were before and we require more.

I don't agree with your statement that most women spend more time at home. I am home less than my spouse is. And when I do get home I'm doing the things that you feel a woman should do. Cook, clean, laundry and keep up with outside chores as well. I also don't feel it's fair of you to say that women who work outside the home do less for their families and more for their jobs. I agree, some do, as do men, yet I do not feel it is the norm.

Even if women stayed home, I'm not sure that would make them put out more. Are you going to tell me women were much more sexual in the 50's, when it was more popular for the wife to be a homemaker? That all the husbands left for work in the morning with BIG smiles of satisfaction because Harriet Homemaker blew his mind in the bedroom the night before?

HussarVanburen said:

Achieving a single bread-winning household is actually easier DONE than SAID. The idea that we can't afford it is largely a myth. This has been established repeatedly, and it is largely due to the "belief" that it persists, not the reality. Besides, even if it does take some tightening of the belt, the better relationship one gains from it is worth it.

Regardless, women do actually spend more time at home even in our current system. It just means they must do a sloppier job, spend less time on things that matter, and have more altercations with their husbands over the whole mess. Why not simply give them the freedom to be everything to a small amount of people - their loved ones - and not nothing to a large group of people - their job - who give absolutely a fucking God damn about them.

Click to expand...

Or what do you know, you can SHARE household duties. God help whoever you are with.

mainegirl said:

Or what do you know, you can SHARE household duties. God help whoever you are with.

Click to expand...

Why should I share when...I am the man bringing home the bacon? Also, why should I share something that doesn't suit me at all? A woman is suited to that, not I.

devinity7 said:

Explain to me how it's easier done than said. First off, I'm curious to know where you are from. Perhaps that explains your opinions regarding this issue. I realize that we have this social problem of keeping up with the Jone's, yet things are much more costly now than they were before and we require more.

Click to expand...

I live in New York.

And no, not really. The statistics don't really pan out on this whole notion that we all need to have two worker households. This is rather dramatically dismantled in "Domestic Tranquility" by F. Carolyn Gragilia.

The reality is that provided we don't live outside our means, a single worker household is easily achieved. Plus, married men with wives at home tend to save money and -make- more money by the freedom that gives them to focus on the outside world, while their wives tend to the domestic sphere.

I don't agree with your statement that most women spend more time at home. I am home less than my spouse is. And when I do get home I'm doing the things that you feel a woman should do. Cook, clean, laundry and keep up with outside chores as well. I also don't feel it's fair of you to say that women who work outside the home do less for their families and more for their jobs. I agree, some do, as do men, yet I do not feel it is the norm.

Click to expand...

It's not unfair, it is fact. You cannot achieve the same for your family that you would if you work outside the home. Simply put: A housewife can attend to all her children and husband's needs, while a working woman will at least partially be responsible to someone else whom she also has to satisfy.

Even if women stayed home, I'm not sure that would make them put out more. Are you going to tell me women were much more sexual in the 50's, when it was more popular for the wife to be a homemaker? That all the husbands left for work in the morning with BIG smiles of satisfaction because Harriet Homemaker blew his mind in the bedroom the night before?

Click to expand...

Yes, actually, I would say that. Generally speaking, those with housewives report a much higher satisfaction with their sex life. Traditional relationships spur the sexuality of women.

F. Carolyn Graglia actually goes so far as to blame our defeat in Vietnam on feminists.

...nut case.

Oh yeah, and she also thinks that somehow "feminist" cause people to "become homosexual."

...double nut case.

Hey, have you seen the book by Elizabeth Warren? She very capably points out that the two-income family of today has 75% more income than the single-income family. However, while many of the two-income families are still struggling to make ends meet, she clearly demonstrates that this is caused by overconsumption. Consequently, all that prudent financial "belt-tightening" that would allow a single-income family to meet their needs would allow a two-income family, with 75% greater income, to absolutely thrive!

So, with greater disposable income, and with mom and dad sharing the domestic duties - since marriage is a partnership - a two-income family has all the advantages in the world, if they choose to take advantage of them.

littlecordelera said:

F. Carolyn Graglia actually goes so far as to blame our defeat in Vietnam on feminists.

...nut case.

Oh yeah, and she also thinks that somehow "feminist" cause people to "become homosexual."

...double nut case.

Hey, have you seen the book by Elizabeth Warren? She very capably points out that the two-income family of today has 75% more income than the single-income family. However, while many of the two-income families are still struggling to make ends meet, she clearly demonstrates that this is caused by overconsumption. Consequently, all that prudent financial "belt-tightening" that would allow a single-income family to meet their needs would allow a two-income family, with 75% greater income, to absolutely thrive!

So, with greater disposable income, and with mom and dad sharing the domestic duties - since marriage is a partnership - a two-income family has all the advantages in the world, if they choose to take advantage of them.

Click to expand...

You mean the almost sorta native american needs to lie about her heritage to be afforded a spot at a prestigous university Warren?

Quoting a statistic (which she didn't derive) without context isn't CAPABLY demonstrating anything.

Why do you suppose two income households "over-consume?"

Because time is exchangeable in lots of ways for money.

If you work rather than stay at home a perfectly reasonable CHOICE it also means someone must care for your children. this costs money...sure because like the failed experiments in the former USSR and still ongoing in China where human life is less precious, the State has decide that the GNP will be higher if women work so they will helpfully subsidize SOME but not all of those expenses.

The reason such couples struggle mostly is the hidden "expediancy of time" mutiplier of expenses. Think of all of the fairly simple by time intensive tasks that a 1950's housewife did at no expense. Now add back in all of the gee, no time so lets get a simple $8.99 pre-roasted chicken instead of the $2.85 raw semi-frozen one, nevermind the expense of fast food, laundry services, disposable diapers, self-entertainment expenses for latch-key kids etc.

its a choice and one that a couple should make rationally looking at ACTUAL budgetary numbers for YOUR circumstance and interests.

And by the way your previous snark was not appreciated. Snark doesnt pass for useful discussion. Live some life, have some sweet successes, and some crushing defeats, then come talk to me about your snap analysis of my bittersweet memories of my 2 decades of marriage.

I can assure you that if your little snarky method for scoring points in an argument is how you plan to handle difficult subjects as they come up in your current or future relationships good look making it to one week shy of twenty years as I did.

yes I am a little voluminous in my commentary, in which case your option is TL;DR (too long, didn't read) to think you can denigrate my ADHD driven verbosity with scorn is a little arrogant. Right up there with those that instead of expressing valid concerns with the SUBSTANCE of Hussar's points (you did better with him by the way) they pointed out his fresh approach to english, like he should shrink and hide for being multi-lingual? Pathetic.

query said:

You mean the almost sorta native american needs to lie about her heritage to be afforded a spot at a prestigous university Warren?
.

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*snicker*

Original Poster here

To solve the mystery I am a 36 year old woman. I am attractive, successful (VP, six-figure salary, corner office). I work out 4-6x per week - grueling workouts to keep fit. (I lost 35 lbs.) I look younger than my years. I am fun, funny, outgoing, I pay for nearly everything we enjoy. And yet we have only had sex about 5-6x since our child was born in 2004, and no sex at all in years.

He expresses no desire, but yet he is complimentary of my appearance.
We snuggle on the sofa, he rubs my feet, we kiss (chastely) hello and good bye. We say I Love You on the phone or over text. We rarely argue.

But he never, I mean never ever initiates sex. I have, he demurred.

A few years ago i gave him a fabulous blow job and I said, "So, how was that?" and he shrugged saying, "Not gonna complain." That was the last time I gave him a blow job.The very least he could have done is say, "Amazing." or "Great!"

He hasn't performed oral sex on my since before I was pregnant (so about 2003.)

So tell me - what do I do?

ohwhynot77 said:

To solve the mystery I am a 36 year old woman. I am attractive, successful (VP, six-figure salary, corner office). I work out 4-6x per week - grueling workouts to keep fit. (I lost 35 lbs.) I look younger than my years. I am fun, funny, outgoing, I pay for nearly everything we enjoy. And yet we have only had sex about 5-6x since our child was born in 2004, and no sex at all in years.

He expresses no desire, but yet he is complimentary of my appearance.
We snuggle on the sofa, he rubs my feet, we kiss (chastely) hello and good bye. We say I Love You on the phone or over text. We rarely argue.

But he never, I mean never ever initiates sex. I have, he demurred.

A few years ago i gave him a fabulous blow job and I said, "So, how was that?" and he shrugged saying, "Not gonna complain." That was the last time I gave him a blow job.The very least he could have done is say, "Amazing." or "Great!"

He hasn't performed oral sex on my since before I was pregnant (so about 2003.)

So tell me - what do I do?

Click to expand...

Ask him if he's gay?