Feedback by anonymous posters

Kantarii said:

I know the voting and commenting aren't mandatory. I'm being misunderstood. But, I still feel like if someone voted, they should have at least took the time to comment on the work. I mean, really, they took the time to read the written work; drop in the bucket to leave a comment as to why they voted the way they did. I could care less about the votes. The comments carry more weight and value to me. I already know my skill level as a writer is elementary, but it's something I enjoy doing. Oh, well, water under the bridge.

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Shyness maybe? Even from a pseudonymous account, writing a comment in my own words feels like a more public act than clicking a star to vote. A lot of people have been socialised to feel ashamed of reading porn, and nervous of getting caught out.

MarkoAaron said:

The anonymity gives them protection to criticize your work (whether or not it's honest criticism or trolling) they feel safe. So you can't reply, "Well, let's take a look at your stories and see how good they are." They fear you will go to their stories and leave some cruel comments and one bomb them in the voting.

I noticed the other night when I posted a link to my newest story in the Story Feedback, my other stories went down in ratings. Was it a troll or a sincere judgement, who knows? It's no secret that there are authors here on Lit with pretty big egos (that shall remain nameless, but obvious to others) and insist that their stories are top quality and any who disagree, get bashed and their stories stand defenseless and suffer negative feedback and voting in retaliation.

Literotica is a site for adults only, but in reality, there are many here who can't stop acting like children. Don't take anonymous feedback too seriously.

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My esteem for Ralph Walso Emerson and Henry David Thoreau crashed and burned after I read evidence of how evil they were. That is, they harbored and supported people who murdered innocents (killers who shared their political convictions). Oliver Wendell Holmes rose high because he was principled but ready to act humanely with his opponents.

NOIRTRASH said:

My esteem for Ralph Walso Emerson and Henry David Thoreau crashed and burned after I read evidence of how evil they were. That is, they harbored and supported people who murdered innocents (killers who shared their political convictions). Oliver Wendell Holmes rose high because he was principled but ready to act humanely with his opponents.

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Not sure what you're post has to do with the thread, but apparently you'll always have Raymond Chandler.

Many people have noted here about the attack of the trolls in the Loving Wife category. Why are Literotica webmasters not doing anything about it? These sad hateful people crap on any author who dares to post hot wife or shared wife stories in Loving Wives and 9 times out of ten post as anonymous. They leave such non-helpful "criticisms" as "cuck shit" "diseased whore" "cum slurping faggot" and "eat shit and die." I mean WTF? And then they write adoring comments for authors who write about beating, even killing women who step outside the bounds of matrimony. They are ruining Loving Wives for both authors and readers. Many good authors have already either stopped posting on Literotica or moved to other categories. I myself tried posting stories in another category and got no hateful comments there, so it's not my bad. Please literotica, find a way to shut down the trollish stalkers in Loving Wives. My suggestion would be to not allow post showing cruelty to women in the Loving Wives category. Reject them and suggest they post in another category such as Non-Erotic.

SharedSigne said:

My suggestion would be to not allow post showing cruelty to women in the Loving Wives category. Reject them and suggest they post in another category such as Non-Erotic.

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I don't think Non-Erotic would work. The haters probably think it's erotic. Maybe they could create a Misogyny category and call it what it is.

NotWise said:

I don't think Non-Erotic would work. The haters probably think it's erotic. Maybe they could create a Misogyny category and call it what it is.

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I think between LW and Non consent the misogyny faction already has their homes based on content and they have the general board to post in too.

Unfortunately, they slip out and show up on other stories and rail away on any story that was anything other than "bitch get on your knees"

Someone once asked me what my ultimate 'lit fantasy was" I think they meant out of the kinks or categories.

But my response was that I would love to meet the most vitriolic LW troll on the site face to face and ask him to repeat his comments without the computer screen and his anymouse ID to protect him.

A close runner up was to meet any author that writes exclusively non consent and the type that breaks the alleged rape rule in all of them.

Not sexual, but hey, they're fantasies.

lovecraft68 said:

A close runner up was to meet any author that writes exclusively non consent and the type that breaks the alleged rape rule in all of them.

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That should be easy. Why though?

I habitually use 'anon' to comment. I use it for various reasons. Most reasons are none that will make sense except in my very convoluted head.

I try to be neutral when I read a story and comment. Sometimes, I am biased in my comments. Usually that is not because of the subject matter but how it is executed. Usually, because I really like a story (concept or how it's written), and because the writer seems to have "bumbled the football."

Most frequently I will discuss length, or lack thereof. I like longer stories. I don't think that's a secret. Do I act like a total bastard because a story is short? Nope, but it better be condensed with juicy bits to get my attention. Even then, I more frequently comment regarding length, when it appeals and yet remains too brief. I like to think a writer can tell when someone really likes a story and can tell that readers are upset because they want more.
Sometimes, I really give way too much credit for intelligence.

Regarding voting, I rarely use five and one. I see those as exemplary instances and such shouldn't be used too often to make them more meaningful. If I like a story, I will vote four, if I think it could use work, I'll vote three, If it doesn't read well, I'll vote two.

Something has to stand out for me to write a comment. I have to feel the writer will make use of my comment. Otherwise my words are falling on deaf ears, and I think too highly of myself to waste my time; thus.

As to the sideboard discussion regarding voting vs commenting, I'll play the devil's advocate and say that not every reader is necessarily gifted with explaining what, why, or how they like or don't like a story. In short, readers are readers, not writers. (Duh!)

I'll also reassert (as I have ofttimes mentioned in other threads), that there is no proper distinction between a "negative comment," a "critique," and "constructive criticism."
In colloquial use, people use "critique" and "constructive criticism" as the soft soap version of "negative comments." I myself have used them thus, as it is easier to explain a concept using colloquialisms.
Call me Capt. Obvious that I like to point out the lack of difference when it seems people treat it as if there were.

LWulf said:

Most frequently I will discuss length, or lack thereof. I like longer stories. I don't think that's a secret. Do I act like a total bastard because a story is short? Nope, but it better be condensed with juicy bits to get my attention. Even then, I more frequently comment regarding length, when it appeals and yet remains too brief. I like to think a writer can tell when someone really likes a story and can tell that readers are upset because they want more.
Sometimes, I really give way too much credit for intelligence.

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Have to say that this raised my hackles. The definition of "short story" is short enough to read at one sitting. For most of the world, that means something less than a Lit. page. I can see wanting to read something longer. I can't see commenting negatively about length when it doesn't go more than half a Lit. page as long as it's a complete story. Short stories are a different form than a novella or a novel and don't call for full development of all of the elements of a longer work: setting, theme, plot, characterization. So, when you are commenting negatively on a short story simply because you like novellas, you aren't being at all helpful to an author writing actual short stories here, especially if they are trying to develop to write in the mainstream. Most readers here who say they want more are just clueless about the short story form.

sr71plt said:

Most readers here who say they want more are just clueless about the short story form.

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When I hear short story, I think Guy de Maupassant. But his were definitely more than a page long. How long is a page here? Based on lines or words?

Kimikimidoll said:

When I hear short story, I think Guy de Maupassant. But his were definitely more than a page long. How long is a page here? Based on lines or words?

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A Lit. page for me (authors vary a bit by their word-length styles) is consistently 3,750 words. Print pages in a standard book can vary between 250 and 500 words (page designers can manipulate that widely). Even at 500 words/page, one Lit. page is going to equal eight print book pages at least. Most mainstream short story contests use 3,000 or 3,500 words as maximums and rarely allow more than 5,000 words. This is shorter than the traditional definition cutoff between short story and novella, which was 20,000 words. The electronic age and dying of literary magazines (starting with the advent of Readers Digest) has cut the expectation max of short stories back to no more 12,000 words, and stories being published at that length are extremely rare. Even in the traditional age, authors like Hemingway, Saki, Guy de Maupassant, Poe, Thurber would fit very comfortably in today's 3,000-3,500 general wordage range.

The Literotica mind-set is to stretch words as much as you can (the rating system and readers like just discussed have encouraged that). The traditional short story mind-set, though, is to be as succinct as possible to convey as much as you can in limited wordage.

sr71plt said:

Have to say that this raised my hackles. The definition of "short story" is short enough to read at one sitting. For most of the world, that means something less than a Lit. page. I can see wanting to read something longer. I can't see commenting negatively about length when it doesn't go more than half a Lit. page as long as it's a complete story. Short stories are a different form than a novella or a novel and don't call for full development of all of the elements of a longer work: setting, theme, plot, characterization. So, when you are commenting negatively on a short story simply because you like novellas, you aren't being at all helpful to an author writing actual short stories here, especially if they are trying to develop to write in the mainstream. Most readers here who say they want more are just clueless about the short story form.

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Kudos that you can judge how long a story is (half to full lit page). I can only tell when it says "2" at the bottom of the page. If it shows "2" or better "3" at the bottom of the page, then I'm happy. "15" and I'm tickled pink, but I'd never expect that many. I don't think it's out of the ordinary to expect a "short story" to be 5-6 standard pages long.

Kimikimidoll said:

When I hear short story, I think Guy de Maupassant. But his were definitely more than a page long. How long is a page here? Based on lines or words?

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Generally speaking, I tested this concept once and found a full Lit page to be approximately two and a half MS Word pages long. I remember it is more than two pages but less than three. How do I know it was a "full" lit page? There was a "2" at the bottom of the page. Generally, I've found most single page stories feel like they are only about 5-7 paragraphs long. Barely enough to wet the appetite. Some of the biggest speakers that tout how many Lit stories they have barely have more than that.

Anything less than one page just feels like a Penthouse Letters story, even then, they did more with less (and why not? they were getting paid to write those "letters.")

I just tested one of my stories (2+ Lit. pages) and was shocked to see it was actually closer to 8 standard pages. My word count for those pages was ~3,500, however I used a LOT of paragraphs (shows I’m a rookie). Less paragraphs would likely mean a higher word count.

I looked for a net response and found short stories (aren’t clearly defined by word count) but are judged to be generally “under 7,500 words. Novelettes are between 7,500 to 20,000 words. The point being, that while I don’t expect all writers to write a maximum to comply with “short story,” those that consistently publish 3500 words or less are writing, in my opinion (I know SR71 likes me using those words), HALF a short story.

LWulf said:

The point being, that while I don’t expect all writers to write a maximum to comply with “short story,” those that consistently publish 3500 words or less are writing, in my opinion (I know SR71 likes me using those words), HALF a short story.

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Okay, let me know if I seem to get where you're coming from:
You mentioned that you like the story when it appeals but it remains brief. That is the very point of a short story! It's a piece of a cake, not the whole thing. A good piece will present well developed characters and situations that can be solved in 'one sitting'. That's why I mentioned Maupassant- he had interesting characters, an interesting situation, and one problem (the one scandalous life event of a dying old maid, for example. I loved that one.)
Short stories should keep you wanting more. The actual length now... Well it's not how long it is but how you use it, right?
(Sorry, couldn't help myself)

LWulf said:

I don't think it's out of the ordinary to expect a "short story" to be 5-6 standard pages long.

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Certainly not at Literotica, which rewards verbosity. But in the greater world of short story writing, you betcha, 5-6 Lit. pages of material most certainly isn't a short story anymore. It's at least a novelette. The electronic age cut work length standards down significantly. You couldn't find a mainstream short story contest that would accept a work at that length.

My hassle is that you would actually criticize a writer here in commentary for actually keeping their work to short story length. You certainly aren't doing them in favors thereby if they'd like to write in the mainstream.

Kimikimidoll said:

Okay, let me know if I seem to get where you're coming from:
You mentioned that you like the story when it appeals but it remains brief. That is the very point of a short story! It's a piece of a cake, not the whole thing. A good piece will present well developed characters and situations that can be solved in 'one sitting'. That's why I mentioned Maupassant- he had interesting characters, an interesting situation, and one problem (the one scandalous life event of a dying old maid, for example. I loved that one.)
Short stories should keep you wanting more. The actual length now... Well it's not how long it is but how you use it, right?
(Sorry, couldn't help myself)

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Okay, first... misconception. What I said, or meant, is that a story that appeals to me CAN be enjoyed in spite of it's length or lack thereof, however it better be full of juicy bits!
Using your analogy, I don't expect a full cake which is more like a novel or novelette. In my mind, a slice of cake is the equivalent of a short story and ONE Lit page represents one fork-full.
Sadly, I know Maupassant but not his stories. You have me at a disadvantage.

Heh, I was thinking of that analogy before when I mentioned "length, or lack there-of" in my first post. No worries.

sr71plt said:

Certainly not at Literotica, which rewards verbosity. But in the greater world of short story writing, you betcha, 5-6 Lit. pages of material most certainly isn't a short story anymore. It's at least a novelette. The electronic age cut work length standards down significantly. You couldn't find a mainstream short story contest that would accept a work at that length.

My hassle is that you would actually criticize a writer here in commentary for actually keeping their work to short story length. You certainly aren't doing them in favors thereby if they'd like to write in the mainstream.

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In fact, while I did my recent net search for "short story length" I did read that novelettes are some of the hardest stories to sell to a publisher which corroborates what you say here. Again, those are stories comprising 7,500 to 20,000 words. Based on my assessment of 3500 words per Lit page, a short story is a theoretical maximum of 2 Lit pages.

While there are no standards of how short, a short story be, I maintain, as I said from the beginning, that less than ONE full lit page barely whets the appetite. However, I also alluded to in my first comment that it depends on "what" they write. "it better be condensed with juicy bits to get my attention." In other words, yes, short content is better than oodles of dross.

More often than not, most one Lit page stories seem like they are all filler with an all too brief orgasm at the end.

Let's face facts. The reader wants the most bang for their buck. Yes, I know, the stories are free and nobody pays, but the point is the same. The reader wants the most they can get.
The writer wants the biggest return for the least effort possible (unless they are paid by word count and then they break out the filler, but that's real world and not here either).

As I first said, I am not a bastard simply because a short story is short. I can't assess off the top of my head how long a one Lit page story is while reading it without seeing a "2" at the bottom. If it's one Lit page (or more likely less), it doesn't satisfy and as a reader I like a more lengthy short story. I won't apologize for that. I didn't say I expect more than two or three pages (which actually coincides with one assessment of the maximum for a short story). However, by any gradation of what constitutes the maximum of a short story, whether it be 5,000, 6,000, 7500, or 10,000 words; at 3,500 words per Lit page, one Lit page "short" stories are short and I will continue to unabashedly encourage writers to put in a "little" more.

This is what you wrote on your expectation: "I don't think it's out of the ordinary to expect a "short story" to be 5-6 standard pages long."

This is Literotica (there's no "standard" page length except on a specific platform). A standard 5-6 pages on Literotica runs 19,000-22,000 words. That's no longer a short story in Internet terms.

So that's what I was seeing you expecting. You have every right to expect that, if you want. I'm just saying you would not be helpful (or right) in counseling someone in comment on their short story here that what they wrote was too short if it didn't meet this mark. This mark is no longer a short story in Internet terms.

A good critique is one that assesses a work on what its goals appear to be, not on the critiquer's personal quirks. I believe that personal quirks would be a reason to click out--or even silently down rate. I don't believe it's a basis to tell a writer how they should write. That's taking the arrogant position that the critiquer is the only one who can speak for all readers.

When I've had someone comment that a story of mine was too short, I've more often than not just written them up on clueless on what a short story is supposed to be.

Incidentally, the last time there was a recognized "standard" page of print was in the typewriter era, when the standard used was 250 words per page. Putting that standard on 5-6 pages would render less than 3,000 words--so, significantly less than one full Literotica page.

One of the hardest parts of discussing a topic online for me is the tendency of people to argue with me stating things I have not stated, (that which is beyond a simple misunderstanding which can occur daily).

I understand, people have issues that have nothing to do with me, but something I say triggers these old grievances to arise. As a result, they become combatant and start stuffing my mouth with words I never said. In the past, this has tended to cause a flash rage where I accept a "no win" scenario as acceptable.

This is related to one of the reasons why I use "anon" to comment. While I will attempt to correct a situation once, I will not go down that road again.

I'm done with the topic unless someone else has something more interesting or substantive to say.

lovecraft68 said:

You're right, vote/commenting is not mandatory.

But it is a shame that people will read something someone spent hours/days perhaps weeks writing, and can't take literally 2-3 seconds to click a star and vote.

The real shame is it does not surprise me. More so now than ever there is a sense of entitlement and lack of appreciation for anyone's hard work. Everything is expected to be provided. I am sure if there was a 'voting app' that could do it for you, people would take the time to get that

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I'm clearly speaking as new blood here, and I've also had the luxury of never really being trashed by votes/comments on this site (or never posting in Loving Wives) (which I probably never will, to prove someone else's point, because holy shit). Still, having done this off and on for a while, I've accepted that readers are going to take my work for granted unless I blow their socks off -- and that even if I do that, they still might take me for granted. Maybe it comes down to entitlement and not giving a shit, but having been on the other side of it, my gut feeling is that it comes down to one of two points:

• The reader doesn't think his (or her) voice matters. Doesn't matter what the author says, the default assumption is that if a story's good, the author must have heard it was good a million times by now. (Ironically, I think for this reason, the more comments you get, the harder it is to get more of them.)

• The reader flat out forgets, because he's there for a specific reason; if my story doesn't help him fulfill that reason, his vote gets lost looking for a story that will. If it does, however, his vote gets lost in the euphoria...possibly the sudden urge to shower, maybe throw in a load of laundry. I suspect I'm splitting hairs by insisting this isn't REALLY entitlement, but I'd rather give weight to the idea that "forgetting" is different and more forgivable than "ignoring."

I have bigger issues with the voting system that I'm not gonna get into here, but for now I'll just say that I've made peace with the ridiculous average ratio of votes to views, and I'll let you know when I figure out how I did this.

More to the point, though: this is probably my inexperience talking, but the best, most thoughtful comment I've ever received was posted anonymously, whereas the absolute dumbest comment I've ever gotten was from a registered user. Strange world.

member9458 said:

• The reader doesn't think his (or her) voice matters. Doesn't matter what the author says, the default assumption is that if a story's good, the author must have heard it was good a million times by now. (Ironically, I think for this reason, the more comments you get, the harder it is to get more of them.)

• The reader flat out forgets, because he's there for a specific reason; if my story doesn't help him fulfill that reason, his vote gets lost looking for a story that will. If it does, however, his vote gets lost in the euphoria...possibly the sudden urge to shower, maybe throw in a load of laundry. I suspect I'm splitting hairs by insisting this isn't REALLY entitlement, but I'd rather give weight to the idea that "forgetting" is different and more forgivable than "ignoring."

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I agree. For years as a shy reader on Lit, voting and comments barely registered on my consciousness. I didn't really know they existed, didn't know what those little red H's meant, and just relied on category and description as a guide. Eventually, I discovered stories with plot and started checking out the comments. But POST a comment? On porn? Me? God, no. Even anonymously.

Now that I have stories up, I understand how precious those votes and comments are. But yeah, I think many readers either don't give weight to their own opinion, or just want to get in, get off, and get out. Which I get.

I got an anonymous comment today that made me laugh out out:



Comments like that are worth keeping anonymous replies around!

rarmons said:

I got an anonymous comment today that made me laugh out out:

Comments like that are worth keeping anonymous replies around!

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That "dumbest comment ever" that I referred to in my last post was along the same lines!

http://i.imgur.com/szxyHHC.jpg

Writing erotica is almost like a crash course in how much stock other guys put in dick sizes. This is veering more into author's hangout territory, but while we're on the subject, let's have a show of hands: has any writer ever gotten feedback from a supposedly female reader complaining that the male protag's dick is too small? Cause you'd think they'd be the ones most affected by it.

member9458 said:

Writing erotica is almost like a crash course in how much stock other guys put in dick sizes. This is veering more into author's hangout territory, but while we're on the subject, let's have a show of hands: has any writer ever gotten feedback from a supposedly female reader complaining that the male protag's dick is too small? Cause you'd think they'd be the ones most affected by it.

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I've had readers, and if I recall correctly at least one female, comment the opposite. I frequently take the time to establish that a character is average in the size department, occasionally 'slightly over' for effect. The only time I've done different is in my Fantasy series where he starts out average and empowers himself to a larger than average size. When readers are sending me thanks for keeping my characters realistic, I think I'm in a good place.


When it comes to the general topic of the thread, I don't find Anonymous comments any more or less worthwhile than named ones. What is the difference if the named account, more often than not, doesn't have any stories posted?

And to add to the reader voting/commenting, I am a very picky reader on Lit myself. I frequently forget to Fav a story that I've enjoyed and need to go back later to look for it, and only feel a true urge to vote one something is particularly good or bad. As a fellow poster of content I know this might be lackluster of me, but it's the way it is. I do, however, comment much less frequently than I vote because to comment I want to have something specific to say. More often than not it's some advice I feel a story with possibility needs to move away from some blatant mistakes. I only occasionally post more than that because I am also aware that my comments have my author name attached to them.

Thinking about this now, I feel an urge to comment more because I know how much each one means to me when I see them pop up on my stories. Paying it forward isn't a bad thing, but it is a habit to develop.

Ldy_Sea said:

Personally I leave all comments positive or negative that are directed at my story. Any personal attacks directed at me or other readers is deleted as soon as I see them.

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I'm with you. In my [limited] experience, the few truly negative comments I've gotten have been replied to fairly quickly by readers who loved the story.

Also, if a reader hates one of my characters, I take it as kind of a left-hand compliment: you can't hate someone you don't believe in!

You have the option of not allowing any comments. Sometimes a story is so bad that people feel the need to express that and not be constructive. If you decide to post something on a public domain you have to be prepared for ugliness.