Confused

Bramblethorn said:

I don't think anybody meant "run" literally; I took those comments as being intended at an emotional level.

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I didn't take it literally. Even on the emotional level I think "run" is way out of proportion when "I really like you but this is not going to work for me" is enough.

I can't tell from what you have said whether you two are compatible. Maybe he is a wannabe Dom behaving like a jerk. Maybe you are just adapting to the lifestyle.

However, I would not a few things for you.

Being a Sub or slave does involve ceding certain decision making powers in order to be obedient. That control should be given up slowly in a mutually acceptable way to someone you trust. And you always reserve the right to exit the relationship. However, if you go into this situation you should expect to be pushed outside your comfort zone. That is how obedience is established, it is the nature of the role and for many the largest source of titillation.

Lots of people find that they want/need more than one sexual partner. That doesn't mean you have to accept it but it would be helpful to let go of the presumption that it means you are lacking something or his feelings for you lack something. Monogamy is the default setting in today's society. It isn't necessarily the correct or only way to exist.

To be honest it sounds like you have limited interest in being in a BDSM relationship but are doing it for him. That seems like a problem to me. Wether he is a true Dom or a manipulative jerk, he is telegraphing very clearly what he wants and expects. It would be foolish to continue on the assumption that you will change him.

Netzach said:

No. Fetishistic relationship slavery is not "whatever you say it is" and it's not "founded in egalitarianism." Egalitarianism is not the only valid solution to all relationship issues, although we're taught it is. Fetish slavery is still based in one party ceding control over its immediate wants and desires, because that loss of control is fulfilling in the larger picture.

It's politically incorrect to say this, but without that, you're in some other arrangement, say, D/s or boyfriend and boyfriend, or whatever.



Agree with that, but I don't agree that this negotiation must be carried out extensively. If you're doing M/s then "because I said so" IS sufficient. Or you're not doing that. (Note: it's usually terrible policy, but still....)




Actually, it does. Or they're not. Maybe he's got the wrong slave. Maybe he isn't introducing the idea in a way that allows her to feel safe, and that's his headache, but it's still his *prerogative* - or else you are saying that M/s has to be not M/s at all except in name.




How about "you should try to work through your discomfort if the relationship is important to you." Why is that negative? Because believe me, in ANY relationship of any import, there is a lot of discomfort to be worked the fuck through.

I am really not so sure that this guy is thinking past the end of his dick, but I know for SURE I am not comfortable with the BDSM board so hostile to M/s.

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Thank you so much. You handled it with much more aplomb than I would have managed.

Bramblethorn said:

Way too many people, kinky and vanilla, seem to start at the other end of things: "we're calling this a master/slave relationship, so you gotta do all the things on this list of slavey duties

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I see nothing at all wrong with saying, "I want a slave, not a 'nilla 'partner,'" and describing the things that will be involved in that / required within that dynamic.

The way you write it exhibits a preconceived prejudice that belittles M/s.

Bramblethorn said:

even if that leaves you feeling miserable and unfulfilled."

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No. You treat it like a natural progression from defining and desiring M/s to someone being left miserable. It is not so.

SinfulSailor said:

I see nothing at all wrong with saying, "I want a slave, not a 'nilla 'partner,'" and describing the things that will be involved in that / required within that dynamic.

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If he'd said that at the start of the relationship, that would have been great. Seems like he didn't actually mention this - or the poly angle - until after the OP had already fallen in love.

The way you write it exhibits a preconceived prejudice that belittles M/s.

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I have no problem with M/s. I do have a big problem with bait-and-switch, and with people using pressure tactics on newbies - which is what the "a true slave would..." line usually is.

No. You treat it like a natural progression from defining and desiring M/s to someone being left miserable. It is not so.

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I don't believe I made any such generalisation about M/s. I'm commenting on this specific case, where the OP has made it abundantly clear that she's kinda meh about some of the M/s stuff and really, really not cool with poly.

I HATE this idea, just absolutely hate it, but I love him so much, I don't say anything. I mean I questioned him, told him I was scared, but he said that is what he wants, he desires it, that there is no why. I just wish I was enough for him... I wrestle w/this every day.

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When people who are really, really not cool with poly let themselves be talked into a poly relationship, BDSM or vanilla? I've seen that several times, and "miserable" is a pretty good word for the outcome. "Trainwreck" is another.

Bramblethorn said:

If he'd said that at the start of the relationship, that would have been great. Seems like he didn't actually mention this - or the poly angle - until after the OP had already fallen in love.



I have no problem with M/s. I do have a big problem with bait-and-switch, and with people using pressure tactics on newbies - which is what the "a true slave would..." line usually is.



I don't believe I made any such generalisation about M/s. I'm commenting on this specific case, where the OP has made it abundantly clear that she's kinda meh about some of the M/s stuff and really, really not cool with poly.



When people who are really, really not cool with poly let themselves be talked into a poly relationship, BDSM or vanilla? I've seen that several times, and "miserable" is a pretty good word for the outcome. "Trainwreck" is another.

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I'm really not seeing the springing of M/s and poly in an existing relationship. OP says that it's really new and is still in the process of getting divorced from the last relationship.

The fact that someone had fallen head over heels in love with me already wouldn't stop me from having my own boundaries and limits nor from stating them.

Bramblethorn said:

When people who are really, really not cool with poly let themselves be talked into a poly relationship, BDSM or vanilla? I've seen that several times, and "miserable" is a pretty good word for the outcome. "Trainwreck" is another.

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How about when people who are really really not cool with poly talk THEMSELVES into a relationship, because their romantic love will conquer all, and they "should be" enough.

That's fine, because the person who wants more than one partner is always the asshole.

Netzach said:

How about when people who are really really not cool with poly talk THEMSELVES into a relationship, because their romantic love will conquer all, and they "should be" enough.

That's fine, because the person who wants more than one partner is always the asshole.

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Ayup.

Reading and re-reading

Has the OP popped up anywhere on the boards to give her feedback?

Question to the OP:

MySlave said:

...
When we are eventually living together, after about a year, he wants to occasionally, once or twice a month, bring in a girl or two to our bed.
...

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Does this mean that you plan on living together and building a (hopefully) solid relationship before beginning to bring others in to your scene? Or does this mean that you probably won't move in together until about a year has gone by?
I am sorry to ask such a nasty question as devil's advocate, but if you are not living together right now, how do you know he doesn't already do this on a regular basis? If he does, and he is still pursuing a relationship with you, then he obviously really wants a relationship with you. If he plans to hold of for a year, then he may understand the need to have a rock solid relationship with you before bringing others in.
All that being said, I still stick with my original advice. Make sure the relationship has all of the elements you need walking into it, or you are just setting yourself up for heartache. Your values won't change, and neither will his needs.

IrisAlthea said:

I'm really not seeing the springing of M/s and poly in an existing relationship. OP says that it's really new and is still in the process of getting divorced from the last relationship.

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Ah, I hadn't seen the "getting divorced" part until just now; OTOH, some couples don't formalise the divorce until well after they've moved on emotionally, so who knows?

What I based that comment on was:

"I have met someone whom I have fallen in love with, and he says he is in love w/me too. So when I found out he was not only into the whole Master/slave thing..."

That seems to imply that the "fallen in love" bit preceded finding out about the M/s (which seems to have led into the poly bit). I dunno, maybe they fell in love at first sight, but usually it takes at least a little time together - which would be a good time to mention "oh BTW, the only type of relationship I'm willing to consider is poly M/s".

Netzach said:

How about when people who are really really not cool with poly talk THEMSELVES into a relationship, because their romantic love will conquer all, and they "should be" enough.

That's fine, because the person who wants more than one partner is always the asshole.

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Yeah, I've seen people do exactly what you describe there. The person who says "Sure I'm okay with you being poly!" and then sits there radiating hate any time their partner shows interest in somebody else. Not everybody gets pressured into poly or BDSM arrangements that they aren't cut out for, some just get there through being dishonest with themselves. And re-reading the OP, yeah, I should have acknowledged that also as a possibility.

(FWIW, I'm poly and have been for almost all of my adult life; if I'm harder on the guy who wants poly, it's not because I'm anti-poly, it's because I'm pickier about my own group's behaviour than about others. And because I've seen too many people like this guy show up on poly advice forums.)

But whether it's him pressuring her, or her persuading herself, or some messy combination of the two... bottom line is, if she's the sort of person who really hates the idea of sharing him with others, this isn't likely to end well.

The narrative I was seeing and responded too, fwiw, is this:

1. OP meets guy.
2. OP and guy "fall in love".
3. Guy tells OP that he wants M/s relationship.
4. OP gives it a go, not really knowing what to expect and trying her darndest.
5. Guy isn't satisfied with newbie's attempts and pulls out the "you're not a true slave" card. Not "my kind of slave" but rather a "true slave", meaning "this is what all the other slaves in the world do, get it together".
6. Halp???

Honestly, seems to me like OP is conflating sub with slave, her partner isn't, and a discrepancy was never suspected. Hence, get away from him if he hasn't done the masterly thing and resorted to manipulation rather than laying out all of what he was expecting of her and what their relationship would entail more or less from the get-go.

Bramblethorn said:

bottom line is, if she's the sort of person who really hates the idea of sharing him with others, this isn't likely to end well.

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Look. For the umpteenth time.... M/s is not an exercise in egalitarianism. The slave does not do any "sharing". The slave is the property. (Check your dictionary.) To imply the slave "shares" (or does not "share") is to empower the slave to control the master. Only a person who owns or controls (or is attempting to own, possess or control) is in a position to "share".... anything, whether it's a master or a sandwich.

Can you share your wife's sandwich with your girlfriend? No. Of course not. Only your wife can share her sandwich. If you or your girlfriend take all or a part of your wife's sandwich without your wife's permission, we call that action things like stealing. Only your wife, the owner of her sandwich, is empowered to begin the act of sharing. If you dictate to your wife that she must share her sandwich with your girlfriend and your wife complies, it is still your wife doing the sharing.

Only the owner/possessor/controller is empowered to "share".

I say again..... She just needs to decide whether or not she wants to be his slave as he envisions slavery. After she does that, everything else may well just fall into place.

I dont think OP has much clue what M/s means or what was she getting herself into. She met the guy, fell for him and found herself in a crap she apparently doesnt like.
So, to solve that crap she can either talk to him from the point of normal vanilla relationship (what actually seems to be something she wants) and see if they can go anywhere from there, or just decide it is not for her and move on.

All this talk about what is the twue meaning of M/s is not really helping somebody who does not seem to be even remotely an s in first place, only a confused girl in love.
You can all talk whatever you want of course, but be aware that you are probably just confusing her even more.

Netzach said:

How about when people who are really really not cool with poly talk THEMSELVES into a relationship, because their romantic love will conquer all, and they "should be" enough.

That's fine, because the person who wants more than one partner is always the asshole.

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Yup.

Bramblethorn said:

Ah, I hadn't seen the "getting divorced" part until just now; OTOH, some couples don't formalise the divorce until well after they've moved on emotionally, so who knows?

What I based that comment on was:

"I have met someone whom I have fallen in love with, and he says he is in love w/me too. So when I found out he was not only into the whole Master/slave thing..."

That seems to imply that the "fallen in love" bit preceded finding out about the M/s (which seems to have led into the poly bit). I dunno, maybe they fell in love at first sight, but usually it takes at least a little time together - which would be a good time to mention "oh BTW, the only type of relationship I'm willing to consider is poly M/s".

But whether it's him pressuring her, or her persuading herself, or some messy combination of the two... bottom line is, if she's the sort of person who really hates the idea of sharing him with others, this isn't likely to end well.

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I may be totally unfair to OP here but something made me read their "fallen in love" as that feeling you sometimes get when you just met and not the "know and love" that takes a long time.

Totally agree with your bottom line.
Wishful thinking and trying to change yourself into newfound heroe's target audience, usually ends up hurting in a less than nice way.

SinfulSailor said:

Look. For the umpteenth time.... M/s is not an exercise in egalitarianism. The slave does not do any "sharing". The slave is the property. (Check your dictionary.) To imply the slave "shares" (or does not "share") is to empower the slave to control the master. Only a person who owns or controls (or is attempting to own, possess or control) is in a position to "share".... anything, whether it's a master or a sandwich.

Can you share your wife's sandwich with your girlfriend? No. Of course not. Only your wife can share her sandwich. If you or your girlfriend take all or a part of your wife's sandwich without your wife's permission, we call that action things like stealing. Only your wife, the owner of her sandwich, is empowered to begin the act of sharing. If you dictate to your wife that she must share her sandwich with your girlfriend and your wife complies, it is still your wife doing the sharing.

Only the owner/possessor/controller is empowered to "share".

I say again..... She just needs to decide whether or not she wants to be his slave as he envisions slavery. After she does that, everything else may well just fall into place.

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She doesn't want to be that slave. She said so, quite plainly.

SinfulSailor said:

Can you share your wife's sandwich with your girlfriend? No. Of course not. Only your wife can share her sandwich. If you or your girlfriend take all or a part of your wife's sandwich without your wife's permission, we call that action things like stealing. Only your wife, the owner of her sandwich, is empowered to begin the act of sharing. If you dictate to your wife that she must share her sandwich with your girlfriend and your wife complies, it is still your wife doing the sharing.

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I was going to start constructing a reply to this, but then my brain got sidetracked into imagining an alternate reality in which sandwiches advertise on FetLife and CollarMe looking for people to own them, and now I can't get it out of my head. So I'm just going to have to leave it there, sorry.

1150 views, 66 replies, to a ghost that drifted through once, six days ago, for about five minutes.
If she isn't a troll, she should be.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on

Stella_Omega said:

She doesn't want to be that slave. She said so, quite plainly.

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Which makes this the typical "how can I make my partner want what I want them to want"-question.

pensivepoet said:

1150 views, 66 replies, to a ghost that drifted through once, six days ago, for about five minutes.
If she isn't a troll, she should be.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on

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Because this scenario is very common, I'm sure most of us have been there or some thing very similar.

pensivepoet said:

1150 views, 66 replies, to a ghost that drifted through once, six days ago, for about five minutes.
If she isn't a troll, she should be.
Sorry to interrupt. Carry on

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Never say never, right? So.... I won't say "never". But I try to never give personal advice online. Personally, I think it is a ridiculous practice. We never really know the person. What they say in a post may be true, untrue, partially true.... and for sure it's not the whole picture. We rarely hear from both people. Even if we did, is it like in an argument when they say things they don't really mean? And online communication is so limited anyway - even for the best text communicator.

Personally, I think to try to give personal relationship advice online is to play an egotistical Don Quixote. Tilt at windmills and think you're the Ann Landers (or Alan Landers) of the internet if you like.

Me? I do like to use these threads as a springboard to discuss (and teach?) (share?) relationship dynamics theory and philosophy. I learn a lot through going through the thought process and the writing helps me organize and improve my ability to communicate my own grokking of these things. I am perfectly willing to embrace other writers' reasoning and inspiration. Indeed, I welcome it and partake of it greedily.

Which, in the end, is very good for me, the readers, my relationships..... It's all good.

I don't give a hairy rat's ass if the OP never posts again.... Or if she posts several times a day. Hell, I don't even care if "she" is really a she. It is a matter of zero import to me.

Everyone tries to cater for their partner but everyone has their limits. It has to be made clear that this is your limit and if that does not sway him then the love you have is not fully reciprocated.

IrisAlthea said:

Which makes this the typical "how can I make my partner want what I want them to want"-question.

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Pretty much universal quandary, yeah.

confused

You want the answer it will not be easy or what you want to hear. You lady are in charge You want a sub/dom set then that is it. What he wants is gone you set the limits of how you will be treated he has gone way past them. Any thing outside what you want you started this you can end it. I read you both said you love the other fine but it does not always work out. The key lady is you. You can stay in and change it or you can walk before it becomes bad.