Confused

[eastern sun]

Have you met him in person?

 

[shy slave]

Run Like Hell Girl!

This.

Plus, keep running, don't look back, don't be tempted, don't blink.

Keep Running

 

[Primalex]

This.

Plus, keep running, don't look back, don't be tempted, don't blink.

Keep Running

Did we reach the top of hysteria finally?

 

[StrayKat]

RUN!!!

 

[SinfulSailor]

Sheesh. People are awfully quick to want to break up other people's relationships.

I grant that he does sound like a pretentious sumbitch. But then..... a lot of people really get off on protocol. So... whatever floats your boats.

At least the guy is talking about it way before it happens. That's a point to the good for the guy.

This thing about another girl is something that comes up again and again and again. And I don't give a damn what somebody says in the beginning, there is better than a fair chance it will come up again with you next master if you break up this relationship.

Also, the guy doesn't seem like a very good relationship manager if he didn't talk with you and explore ways and reasons why and how you can get benefits and good things from whatever he has in mind if he knows it goes against the grain in your mind. You might explain that to him and tell him to work on his relationship, managerial and leadership skills. Then you might tell him to get back to you after he has read some books, done some seminars and so on about leadership and team building.

At the same time, you can both study some books and web resources on the topic of poly, female bisexuality and so on. And you can study up on team play/membership topics. How to be a good follower/partner/team member.

I really hate coming online and reading people telling other people to break up their relationships. Like they never thought of that. Hah!

I know that'll get me flamed 'cause so many people are saying dump him and run. Fuck it. The OP is saying she really likes/loves the guy. I say offer constructive suggestions.

 

[midwestyankee]

Do you have incontrovertible evidence that he has maintained one or more relationships with other women in the same manner that he expects to relate to you?

If you don't have the above or can't trust the evidence he provides, I suggest that he may not have ever done this before. He may be using this monster smokescreen of BDSM to seem like a far more attractive mate than he ever would otherwise. If my guess is correct, with months he will likely tire of you and tire of treating you like his submissive. It's the gifted and stolen toys that get broken first.

 

[SinfulSailor]

Oh, and P.S.

People above are saying there is no "true slave". They say a slave is whatever the people decide it is.

Well..... The guy is telling his girl what he has decided it is. So for him a "true slave" is what he says it is.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a set definition for what a true slave is, or the guy can say what a true slave is to him in his life and in his relationships.

What he says is completely valid for him and in his relationship.

His true slave is whatever he says it is.

 

[MeekMe]

Oh, and P.S.

People above are saying there is no "true slave". They say a slave is whatever the people decide it is.

Well..... The guy is telling his girl what he has decided it is. So for him a "true slave" is what he says it is.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a set definition for what a true slave is, or the guy can say what a true slave is to him in his life and in his relationships.

What he says is completely valid for him and in his relationship.

His true slave is whatever he says it is.

In that case he should have discussed this with her to see if her definition matches his. They may be on very different pages, most likely completely different books.

It's whatever he says it is, but she doesn't have to go along with it. The problem is that he has this definition and she doesn't have enough info to know what to make of it.

The big problem is, according to OP, he told her how it is going to be and didn't leave room for her input. Sounds shady to me.

 

[Belle_Nuit]

If he is unwilling to take into account your feelings about this then he's not worth it. He sounds like an ass (sorry)

 

[SinfulSailor]

In that case he should have discussed this with her to see if her definition matches his. They may be on very different pages, most likely completely different books.

It's whatever he says it is, but she doesn't have to go along with it. The problem is that he has this definition and she doesn't have enough info to know what to make of it.

The big problem is, according to OP, he told her how it is going to be and didn't leave room for her input. Sounds shady to me.

That's true. But then, she's not a slave in his eyes. She needs to step up and decide whether she wants to be a slave / his slave, as he envisions it. Yes, or no.

Re input: Note that I earlier suggested he study leadership.

 

[IrisAlthea]

In that case he should have discussed this with her to see if her definition matches his. They may be on very different pages, most likely completely different books.

It's whatever he says it is, but she doesn't have to go along with it. The problem is that he has this definition and she doesn't have enough info to know what to make of it.

The big problem is, according to OP, he told her how it is going to be and didn't leave room for her input. Sounds shady to me.

As I'm reading it they are in the beginning of the relationship and the discussion is taking place.
He is stating what he wants and needs and is free to decide what is negotiable for him and what is not. OP has the same right.
I see no need for running unless someone is trying to take away that right. There might be a need for leaving though. Sometimes people are just not compatible.

 

[Collar_N_Cuffs]

Sexual desire and satisfaction alone will not maintain a relationship IF, IF you are looking for a personal relationship on your own terms, or terms that you can at least abide by and be happy with. Sexual desire is very provocative, but can be empty without emotional satisfaction, if that is what you need. Make sure you have solid grounds on all portions of a relationship that you require walking in, or you are just setting yourself up for misery

 

[MeekMe]

As I'm reading it they are in the beginning of the relationship and the discussion is taking place.
He is stating what he wants and needs and is free to decide what is negotiable for him and what is not. OP has the same right.
I see no need for running unless someone is trying to take away that right. There might be a need for leaving though. Sometimes people are just not compatible.

I wasn't the one screaming "run." I actually suggested she learn a little more and have a conversation with her "master." After that, if they can't come to a reasonable solution, she should consider leaving. My suggestion was that if another girl being brought in was too much and she couldn't handle it, being told she's not a true slave (what ever the meaning) isn't going to make her feel any better about another party being brought in. If forced to endure, the relationship would probably crumble from there.

We all have our own interpretations. I read it as him telling her to do it his way, and when she protested, he threw out the "true slave" BS.

CNC, I can dig that. Sounds like great advice that any relationship could use.

 

[Netzach]

As I'm reading it they are in the beginning of the relationship and the discussion is taking place.
He is stating what he wants and needs and is free to decide what is negotiable for him and what is not. OP has the same right.
I see no need for running unless someone is trying to take away that right. There might be a need for leaving though. Sometimes people are just not compatible.

This.

I don't know, maybe he's doing it in a douchebag way, but it seems to me like he's laying down an expectation. It's an expectation I have in common with him (even more strongly, really) and it's one I always lay out. It doesn't mean that other people actually *listen* to what I'm saying if they believe that love is going to cure me.

It's not about you "not being enough" it's about NO ONE PERSON ever being enough.

Everyone thinks they're different, that the person who isn't doing monogamy just hasn't figured themselves out or met the right one.

Sounds like you can walk if you want. You can even "run away" if you want. Ask yourself if the relationship as a whole is detracting from your life or adding to it. If it's altogether good and this one thing is a challenge, maybe you should be the person giving some ground.

If someone wants to be my slave guess who that person is going to be? Or else au revoir, so long, laterz. So maybe "true slave" is kind of a lame play for it, but how, exactly is that not OK? His expectation of a slave is someone willing to do things his way even if she doesn't like it. Crazy talk!

OP if not. if this is more angst than fulfillment, then don't bother with it.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I wasn't the one screaming "run." I actually suggested she learn a little more and have a conversation with her "master." After that, if they can't come to a reasonable solution, she should consider leaving. My suggestion was that if another girl being brought in was too much and she couldn't handle it, being told she's not a true slave (what ever the meaning) isn't going to make her feel any better about another party being brought in. If forced to endure, the relationship would probably crumble from there.

We all have our own interpretations. I read it as him telling her to do it his way, and when she protested, he threw out the "true slave" BS.

CNC, I can dig that. Sounds like great advice that any relationship could use.

Yes, the run part wasn't really aimed at you.

I'm sure he is telling her to do it his way or he will not consider her a true slave.
I just think she is telling him to do it her way too, because she thinks if he really loved her she would be enough.

I agree that the advice CNC offers is great and I think OP's guy is following it already.
I hope OP does too.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Sheesh. People are awfully quick to want to break up other people's relationships.

Not in general. Plenty of times when people have come to these boards with relationship questions and have had plenty of replies suggesting ways to mend a troubled relationship. But in this particular case, seems like a lot of us think this one is doomed.

I grant that he does sound like a pretentious sumbitch. But then..... a lot of people really get off on protocol. So... whatever floats your boats.

OP has made it clear that his idea of protocol doesn't float her boat.

At least the guy is talking about it way before it happens. That's a point to the good for the guy.

It is, but it would be better if he'd discussed these expectations BEFORE they got this far in the relationship... and when he starts talking about "a true slave will do X" that suggests the communication is one-way, which isn't enough.

This thing about another girl is something that comes up again and again and again. And I don't give a damn what somebody says in the beginning, there is better than a fair chance it will come up again with you next master if you break up this relationship.

Maybe so. And maybe that next master will be more willing to discuss it with her, listen to her concerns, work out something that both of them can live with, instead of telling her "this is how it's gonna be".

If not, well, ditch that one too and see how #3 turns out.

Also, the guy doesn't seem like a very good relationship manager if he didn't talk with you and explore ways and reasons why and how you can get benefits and good things from whatever he has in mind if he knows it goes against the grain in your mind. You might explain that to him and tell him to work on his relationship, managerial and leadership skills. Then you might tell him to get back to you after he has read some books, done some seminars and so on about leadership and team building.

At the same time, you can both study some books and web resources on the topic of poly, female bisexuality and so on. And you can study up on team play/membership topics. How to be a good follower/partner/team member.

If she does stick with him, and if he's willing to listen to advice from her, these would be good things to try.

With that said: I knew a guy who read a bunch of books on being poly, and hung out in poly discussion forums, and talked with his partner about the idea at great length. He convinced everybody including himself that he was okay with poly, and he was... right up to the point where his girlfriend started dating other people.

I'm no good at body language, but mutual friends told me you could see the tension in him any time she was with somebody else. Certainly he started doing a bunch of things that undermined his girlfriend's relationships; I believe he was outright gaslighting her, at the least he managed to come up with a bunch of conditions that made it impossible to maintain them. (My favourite: he "couldn't sleep" if she was in the same town and not in the same bed as him, and since she had difficulty travelling alone...)

My point is - if you're emotionally compatible with poly, reading books about it can help you make it work. But a lot of people aren't, and no amount of reading will help them. People going into that stuff with the mindset of "my girlfriend will be fine with me banging other girls if I explain it to her right" need to understand that she may not EVER be okay with that.

BTW, the other risk of all this is that she agrees to a bisexual poly thing, and then he can't find another girl who wants to fuck him, and she has to play nursemaid to his bruised ego. There's a reason submissive bi women willing to sleep with an existing couple are nicknamed "unicorns".

Oh, and P.S.

People above are saying there is no "true slave". They say a slave is whatever the people decide it is.

Well..... The guy is telling his girl what he has decided it is. So for him a "true slave" is what he says it is.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a set definition for what a true slave is, or the guy can say what a true slave is to him in his life and in his relationships.

What he says is completely valid for him and in his relationship.

Sure, he gets to decide what he wants out of a relationship (and she gets to decide whether that's compatible with what SHE wants... if not, he gets to be in a relationship of one).

But when a guy talks about "a true slave would..." about 99% of the time it translates to "ONLY my preferences are valid and yours are not". Trying to pressure a submissive into believing that there's only one right way to do BDSM which just happens to coincide exactly with his fantasies.

As I'm reading it they are in the beginning of the relationship and the discussion is taking place.
He is stating what he wants and needs and is free to decide what is negotiable for him and what is not. OP has the same right.
I see no need for running unless someone is trying to take away that right. There might be a need for leaving though. Sometimes people are just not compatible.

I don't think anybody meant "run" literally; I took those comments as being intended at an emotional level.

 

[SinfulSailor]

I don't think anybody meant "run" literally; I took those comments as being intended at an emotional level.

I'd like to get a focus group on it. I'm willing to bet a C Note they'd vote on a literal "Run".

 

[SinfulSailor]

Not in general. Plenty of times when people have come to these boards with relationship questions and have had plenty of replies suggesting ways to mend a troubled relationship. But in this particular case, seems like a lot of us think this one is doomed.



OP has made it clear that his idea of protocol doesn't float her boat.



It is, but it would be better if he'd discussed these expectations BEFORE they got this far in the relationship... and when he starts talking about "a true slave will do X" that suggests the communication is one-way, which isn't enough.



Maybe so. And maybe that next master will be more willing to discuss it with her, listen to her concerns, work out something that both of them can live with, instead of telling her "this is how it's gonna be".

If not, well, ditch that one too and see how #3 turns out.



If she does stick with him, and if he's willing to listen to advice from her, these would be good things to try.

With that said: I knew a guy who read a bunch of books on being poly, and hung out in poly discussion forums, and talked with his partner about the idea at great length. He convinced everybody including himself that he was okay with poly, and he was... right up to the point where his girlfriend started dating other people.

I'm no good at body language, but mutual friends told me you could see the tension in him any time she was with somebody else. Certainly he started doing a bunch of things that undermined his girlfriend's relationships; I believe he was outright gaslighting her, at the least he managed to come up with a bunch of conditions that made it impossible to maintain them. (My favourite: he "couldn't sleep" if she was in the same town and not in the same bed as him, and since she had difficulty travelling alone...)

My point is - if you're emotionally compatible with poly, reading books about it can help you make it work. But a lot of people aren't, and no amount of reading will help them. People going into that stuff with the mindset of "my girlfriend will be fine with me banging other girls if I explain it to her right" need to understand that she may not EVER be okay with that.

BTW, the other risk of all this is that she agrees to a bisexual poly thing, and then he can't find another girl who wants to fuck him, and she has to play nursemaid to his bruised ego. There's a reason submissive bi women willing to sleep with an existing couple are nicknamed "unicorns".



Sure, he gets to decide what he wants out of a relationship (and she gets to decide whether that's compatible with what SHE wants... if not, he gets to be in a relationship of one).

But when a guy talks about "a true slave would..." about 99% of the time it translates to "ONLY my preferences are valid and yours are not". Trying to pressure a submissive into believing that there's only one right way to do BDSM which just happens to coincide exactly with his fantasies.



I don't think anybody meant "run" literally; I took those comments as being intended at an emotional level.

Look. I don't know if you can grok this, but..... The above really sounds very egalitarian. Now reading the OP, it strikes me that she has one foot in slavery and the other foot in egalitarianism. Don't know which way she's gonna jump. And honestly, I don't give a damn. It's her business. But the guy.... He seems to be coming from an M/s POV and all these egalitarianism philosophies.... It doesn't sound like they're gonna fly with him. May as well give the OP a hand grenade and tell her to find the heart of her relationship and pull the pin on the grenade.

I say..... Figure out whether you want to be the guy's slave as he sees slavery. (And be glad he's explaining it so you know what you're getting into.) That decision (whether to be the guy's slave) should answer all the questions.

 

[StrayKat]

I'd like to get a focus group on it. I'm willing to bet a C Note they'd vote on a literal "Run".

I gave my advice on page 1. The rest was just a contribution to hysteria.
She posted here and asked. If people said "run" and mean it, literally, its their opinion and they have every right to say so.
Who are you to call them out on it?

 

[SinfulSailor]

I gave my advice on page 1. The rest was just a contribution to hysteria.
She posted here and asked. If people said "run" and mean it, literally, its their opinion and they have every right to say so.
Who are you to call them out on it?

I'm the guy with a conscience who sees some other guy kicking a dog and says... Hey, stop kicking that dog.

I'm the guy with a conscience who sees someone knock an old woman down and says.... Hey, watch what wtf you're doin' mf'er.

I'm the guy with a conscience who sees people telling someone to break up a relationship, so I say.... Hey, maybe people shouldn't be so damn quick to tell other people to be destructive.

Feel free to rethink knee-jerk negativism.

Feel free to block my posts.

Whatever trips your trigger.

 

[StrayKat]

Only if people tell other people to break up a relationship maybe those people have enough experience to see the red flags and predict it is not going to work. And I still think they have right to say so without you putting them on defensive.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, and P.S.

People above are saying there is no "true slave". They say a slave is whatever the people decide it is.

Well..... The guy is telling his girl what he has decided it is. So for him a "true slave" is what he says it is.

You can't have it both ways. Either there is a set definition for what a true slave is, or the guy can say what a true slave is to him in his life and in his relationships.

What he says is completely valid for him and in his relationship.

His true slave is whatever he says it is.

This is in fact, quite true.
But he's appealing to authority, instead of saying "well, this is how I want my slave to be," he's making a blanket statement about slaves.

Sure enough he could use some understanding about leadership. Those that need it most.. are the least likely to look for it, in my experience.

In any case, whether or not he ever does do that talking thing, the lady might have enough information-- about twoo slavery, about his idea of twoo slavery, about her own capacity to be that, about his leadership skills and -- we don't know this but she might-- his ability to move forward-- to make her own decision.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Look. I don't know if you can grok this, but..... The above really sounds very egalitarian. Now reading the OP, it strikes me that she has one foot in slavery and the other foot in egalitarianism.

I don't know if you can grok this, but...

Real-life slavery and egalitarianism are incompatible.

BDSM "slavery" is a world away from RL slavery, because it's something that people get to choose and define however they like. As such, it's grounded in egalitarianism - the idea that the would-be "slave" has the freedom to decide how much power to cede, and to whom.

Without that choice it's not BDSM, it's just involuntary power imbalance and abuse.

Don't know which way she's gonna jump. And honestly, I don't give a damn. It's her business. But the guy.... He seems to be coming from an M/s POV and all these egalitarianism philosophies.... It doesn't sound like they're gonna fly with him. May as well give the OP a hand grenade and tell her to find the heart of her relationship and pull the pin on the grenade.

And it doesn't sound like poly or the 24/7 protocol he's asking for is gonna fly with her. The fact that he's a "master" and she's a "sub" doesn't make her preferences any more negotiable than his.

I'm the guy with a conscience who sees some other guy kicking a dog and says... Hey, stop kicking that dog.

I'm the guy with a conscience who sees someone knock an old woman down and says.... Hey, watch what wtf you're doin' mf'er.

I'm the guy with a conscience who sees people telling someone to break up a relationship, so I say.... Hey, maybe people shouldn't be so damn quick to tell other people to be destructive.

If you really think advising somebody to get out of an unhappy relationship is comparable with physically attacking the vulnerable, all I can say is, you have a very odd moral code.

Some relationships are worth holding on to. Some aren't. Telling somebody "you should try to make this relationship work" is not ipso facto more noble than "that's a bad relationship and you'd be better out of it".

Telling somebody "you should try to work through your discomfort because you're not likely to find better" - now, that's negativity.

 

[Netzach]

BDSM "slavery" is a world away from RL slavery, because it's something that people get to choose and define however they like. As such, it's grounded in egalitarianism - the idea that the would-be "slave" has the freedom to decide how much power to cede, and to whom.

No. Fetishistic relationship slavery is not "whatever you say it is" and it's not "founded in egalitarianism." Egalitarianism is not the only valid solution to all relationship issues, although we're taught it is. Fetish slavery is still based in one party ceding control over its immediate wants and desires, because that loss of control is fulfilling in the larger picture.

It's politically incorrect to say this, but without that, you're in some other arrangement, say, D/s or boyfriend and boyfriend, or whatever.

Without that choice it's not BDSM, it's just involuntary power imbalance and abuse.

Agree with that, but I don't agree that this negotiation must be carried out extensively. If you're doing M/s then "because I said so" IS sufficient. Or you're not doing that. (Note: it's usually terrible policy, but still....)

And it doesn't sound like poly or the 24/7 protocol he's asking for is gonna fly with her. The fact that he's a "master" and she's a "sub" doesn't make her preferences any more negotiable than his.

Actually, it does. Or they're not. Maybe he's got the wrong slave. Maybe he isn't introducing the idea in a way that allows her to feel safe, and that's his headache, but it's still his *prerogative* - or else you are saying that M/s has to be not M/s at all except in name.

If you really think advising somebody to get out of an unhappy relationship is comparable with physically attacking the vulnerable, all I can say is, you have a very odd moral code.

Some relationships are worth holding on to. Some aren't. Telling somebody "you should try to make this relationship work" is not ipso facto more noble than "that's a bad relationship and you'd be better out of it".

Telling somebody "you should try to work through your discomfort because you're not likely to find better" - now, that's negativity.

How about "you should try to work through your discomfort if the relationship is important to you." Why is that negative? Because believe me, in ANY relationship of any import, there is a lot of discomfort to be worked the fuck through.

I am really not so sure that this guy is thinking past the end of his dick, but I know for SURE I am not comfortable with the BDSM board so hostile to M/s.

 

[Bramblethorn]

No. Fetishistic relationship slavery is not "whatever you say it is" and it's not "founded in egalitarianism." Egalitarianism is not the only valid solution to all relationship issues, although we're taught it is. Fetish slavery is still based in one party ceding control over its immediate wants and desires, because that loss of control is fulfilling in the larger picture.

I'm not sure if we're really disagreeing here, or just framing things differently. To me, "ceding control" implies that by default have that control and the choice about whether to keep it; the decision about whether it's going to be fulfilling in the larger picture is theirs. I see that as an egalitarian framework even if the end result is consensual inequality.

From the OP's original post, it sounded like she was far from certain that she did want to cede quite that much control.

It's politically incorrect to say this, but without that, you're in some other arrangement, say, D/s or boyfriend and boyfriend, or whatever.

If you don't think the relationship should be called M/s without taking that step, I don't have a problem with that. I'm not terribly fussed about labels, as long as I understand what people mean.

The problem I have with "A true slave would do X" is that it's not really a descriptive statement; most of the times I hear it, it's an implicit "you ought to do X otherwise you're a fake". Often used as a pressure tactic on people who are new to BDSM (like the OP here) who may not yet understand that there ARE plenty of legit options in between 24/7 TPE and vanilla, let alone have worked out what they're looking for.

Basically, it comes across as a BDSM version of "if you weren't frigid you'd suck my dick". Or the old poly standard, "if you were more evolved you'd be cool with me fucking other women".

Actually, it does. Or they're not. Maybe he's got the wrong slave. Maybe he isn't introducing the idea in a way that allows her to feel safe, and that's his headache, but it's still his *prerogative* - or else you are saying that M/s has to be not M/s at all except in name.

What I'm saying to her is more: focus on what sort of relationship you want, and whether it's possible to have that sort of relationship with this guy. Worrying about what to call it should come after figuring that out. (Or, optionally, not at all.)

Way too many people, kinky and vanilla, seem to start at the other end of things: "we're calling this a master/slave relationship, so you gotta do all the things on this list of slavey duties, even if that leaves you feeling miserable and unfulfilled."

How about "you should try to work through your discomfort if the relationship is important to you." Why is that negative?

I don't think I ever said it was? I was responding to a comment that seemed to be suggesting that if she broke up with him because he wanted poly, she'd probably just encounter the same in the next relationship.

Because believe me, in ANY relationship of any import, there is a lot of discomfort to be worked the fuck through.

Sure. I've been with my partner and girlfriend for 16 and 12 (?) years now, been through some pretty rough times and we had to do a lot of work to keep things going. I've given advice to that effect elsewhere on these boards. But there are also times when it's better to cut your losses and walk away rather than trying to save something that's not worth saving.

Knowing the difference between the two, that's the hard part. I don't have all the answers, but I will say: I've seen couples work through some pretty big problems, but only ever when both of them were willing to work on it. From the OP it doesn't sound as if that's what's happening here.

I am really not so sure that this guy is thinking past the end of his dick, but I know for SURE I am not comfortable with the BDSM board so hostile to M/s.

I didn't intend to be hostile to M/s, and I apologise if I came across that way. I certainly didn't mean to cause you discomfort; I respect what you have to say and enjoy reading your posts. So again, my apologies.

To be clear, I have no issue with people who freely choose to pursue M/s. YKIOK. What bugs me is people using "either you're happy with full-on M/s or you're a fake" pressure tactics on someone very new to BDSM, which is how this one's coming across to me. YMMV.