Please critique

sr71plt said:

Not going to argue that further here. Just suggest the OP be alert and beware.

Click to expand...

Yeah idk why you wanted to turn it into an argument to begin with; the only reason I offered criticism of first person to begin with was because someone had asked, and then afterward you asked again about my use of the term 'excessive'.

beerlovr88 said:

Yes. Some authors have a first person narrator, but then there's large 'gaps' or 'breaks' if, say, the featured protaganist is merely observing a dialogue or actions between 2 separate characters entirely, in which case there's large chunks of the story that isn't any different from a third person narrative.

Again I would cite Doyle as an example; there's a first person narrator but still many paragraphs go by without saying "I" every other word in every sentence, such as authors here who tell stories like this: "I felt great because I thought he was cute. I was still worried that we were taking things too fast, but then I remembered what he had promised earlier; that I'd always be his priority". Excessive.


Right, it's a matter of preference. And speaking of that preference, I will say that 3 of the authors I mentioned have erotic scenes in their novels, and part of the reason I found them so exciting was because they expertly incorporated an element that so many authors here like to neglect: emotion and character development. So even if first person was 100% fine and the OP could clean up the tense usage and awkward wording, by the OP's own admission there was still plenty of room for improvement in these categories as well.

Click to expand...

I can see where you're coming from, although I would argue that a third person limited past tense story can be just as bad, the only difference being that the author can change out he/she with the character's name: 'Gwendolyn felt great because she thought he was cute. She was still worried that they were taking things too fast, but then she remembered what he had promised earlier; that she'd always be his priority.'

That statement still seems pretty excessive to me, and seems to me a writing quality, sentence structure, and word choice issue. You could argue it is more prevalent in 1st person writing, but anecdotally, I'm not sure I've seen it any more in 1p than in 3pl.

My biggest gripe with 1st person is how often the author takes for granted that because the reader is inside the narrator's head, we see things the way the character sees them. This, however, can be just as common in 3rd person.

And in 3rd person, head hopping can be fine, but I generally dislike it if it is done without a change in perspective or tone (ie, the author bounces back and forth between two characters during an erotic scene to describe what each is feeling. If no different vocabulary, change of tone or perspective, or anything else, but the view would still be considered 'limited,' I find it off-putting.). Likewise, if a story is in 3rd person limited, and suddenly shifts to omniscient, unless there is an-in story reason, it's usually jarring and irritating to me.

Of course, my complaints with the various styles come down to my own preferences, and a matter of writing skill rather than a flaw inherent to the POV style used.

Accept advice. Reject opinion

RedJaime said:

https://www.literotica.com/s/go-padres

Any feedback would be helpful. I got 4 likes and realize they are probably bots. I would appreciate it and would return the favor if needed. I believe my story lacks emotion, let me know what you think. Thank you!!

Click to expand...

My first story only appeared a couple of months ago and, like you, I asked for advice. I had, again like you, decided to start with a simple and short story. So, speaking as a reader not a writer, I thought the plot was good, you avoided the trap of making it complicated, and it was an enjoyable story. When I think of commenting on a story I ask myself whether I enjoyed it and afterwards consider any mistakes. Mistakes both in spelling and punctuation. I ask myself whether they affected my enjoyment and were they big mistakes. Some critics work it the other way round and, in my opinion and with all due respect to them, that’s not helpful.

The mistakes are not monumental and are easily corrected. For spelling I rely on my own brain and, if unsure, consult a dictionary. I don’t rely on technology. After my first story came off the front page, as yours has done, I submitted an edited version. Acting on good advice I corrected the spelling/punctuation mistakes. I also took the opportunity to change some of the text, only slightly, so that it read better. It took about a week from resubmission to it appearing but in that time the original remained on view. I don’t consider that wrong and, as I’ve said, was acting on the good advice of an experienced writer. Until it was pointed out to me I didn’t know it was possible

Differentiate between advice and opinion. They aren’t the same animal. I look forward to reading your next story.

A few points I'd like to weigh in on.

1) Men do not understand needing to have your breasts in place, but the rest of us do. Bras shift like any article of clothing, and there are times where the girls get a mind of their own and need some adjustment.

2) All of this fuss about present tense and first person has nothing to do with your story and everything to do with other people's preferences. Write your story thr way you want to write it.

3) That being said, there are advantages and disadvantages to using different styles. First person is, like you said, the most intimate, but the story isn't about intimacy. Present tense is very visceral and tied to the moment, and that can be powerful when circumstances conspire to make an interesting plot, but this story is more about a random sexual encounter with no lead up and no emotional attachment.

Pick the right tool for the job. This story should have been third person past tense. If you want to write first person present tense, craft a plot that plays to those strengths.

4) I liked your dialogue. There was some stiff narration, and some clunky choices being made by the protagonist that served to move the plot forward, but in between all of that was a pretty good interaction between two human beings, and that cannot be taken for granted. It was subtle, but it was really interesting.

Dialog is a strength for you. Learn how to use that to your advantage.

5) Keep writing. Even if it's more 2000 word scenes like this, keep writing.

6) Try reading something of someone elses crtitically (ie, not for content (ie, don't masturbate)) and try to pay attention to if/how they use the perspective to tell a specific kind of story. If so, did it work. If not, where did they go wrong? Why was a particular choice the incorrect one? How would you do it differently?

Polyacrylate said:

I would argue that a third person limited past tense story can be just as bad, the only difference being that the author can change out he/she with the character's name: 'Gwendolyn felt great because she thought he was cute. She was still worried that they were taking things too fast, but then she remembered what he had promised earlier; that she'd always be his priority'.

Click to expand...

Sure. I was asked what I had meant by 'excessive' use of first person, and in itself citing an example of 'excessive' was not an argument to suggest that 'first person' was inferior or that the excessive use of another PoV wouldn't be just as limiting. People seem so focused on PoV when my initial criticism in this thread would have stood regardless of whether the OP chose first person or not, and again, I only went on to elaborate because someone had asked.

And if I'm being asked then I'll say that being in a narrators head for an entire story where all they want to do is talk about themselves can be overwhelming (citing a famous example in the process), and that all of my favorite authors have used third person past tense when writing their stories, with the exception of Doyle whose first person narrator never wanted to talk about himself.

So to be clear, first person doesn't have to limit the enjoyment of a story, and because so many authors here want to use it let's cite an example (Samantha Winters) of one that worked.

This:

"It started with a seduction. It happened at a party. There were dozens of other people there. And it was a friend of my family, a boy that my parents knew and liked, a boy who was a good friend of my brother. But the darkest and most wicked things can happen in public, I found that out. And the worst evil can come wearing a smiling face."

Is far better than this:

"It started with me being seduced when I was at a party. I was with a friendly friend, a boy that my parent's liked. I found out the darkest things can happen in public, and that I'd encounter the worst type of evil wearing a smile."

So many stories on this site are being written like the second example, and if authors here are so desperate for feedback then I for one can't help but wonder if attempting to write about another person instead would help broaden the literary horizon.

Dear Beerlovr,

Your presented criticisms are entirely subjective assessments. You clearly don't like your own second example, but it is not bad, wrong, or weak (although it is repetitive).

Doc

AwkwardMD said:

Dear Beerlovr,

Your presented criticisms are entirely subjective assessments. You clearly don't like your own second example, but it is not bad, wrong, or weak (although it is repetitive).

Doc

Click to expand...

I'd go so far as to say the second example is actually better, though I would have kept it "But I found..." To me its simplicity makes it more intriguing. The first spells out who knows what and why without giving the reader credit for being able to read the subtext.

Alice_Rosaleen said:

I'd go so far as to say the second example is actually better, though I would have kept it "But I found..." To me its simplicity makes it more intriguing. The first spells out who knows what and why without giving the reader credit for being able to read the subtext.

Click to expand...

Agree. The first example is clunk clunk clunk as its expositionary wheels go round. Which is appropriate, I suppose, given that the OP's story started with back story too, and some folk crave that.

Bladerunner 2049, by the way (apropos of a different thread) does work as a respectful sequel. This from a person who rates the original and Alien as the second and third best sci-fi movies ever made. You know my first ranked, which is on a high shelf all on its own .

electricblue66 said:

Agree. The first example is clunk clunk clunk as its expositionary wheels go round. Which is appropriate, I suppose, given that the OP's story started with back story too, and some folk crave that.

Bladerunner 2049, by the way (apropos of a different thread) does work as a respectful sequel. This from a person who rates the original and Alien as the second and third best sci-fi movies ever made. You know my first ranked, which is on a high shelf all on its own .

Click to expand...

Interesting expository beginnings are one of those 'first things you attempt, last things you master' skills in writing, like an effective flashback or a good essay.
I often have to make sure I have enough backstory sometimes. Or at least that I fill in the blanks at the appropriate moments. But I do like to put twists in, so it helps to be mysterious.
Now I'll have to sit down and actually watch both Bladerunners. The original is one of those movies I've seen a lot in pieces on tv because I'm terrible at sitting for that long at a time (*to see a movie or show on screen at least) The last "sci-fi" movie that made an impact on me was Moon, by the way. Chillingly Kubrickesque.

Alice_Rosaleen said:

The last "sci-fi" movie that made an impact on me was Moon, by the way. Chillingly Kubrickesque.

Click to expand...

Yes! The Moon, very good. Directed by David Bowie's son, Duncan Jones.

AwkwardMD said:

You clearly don't like your own second example, but it is not bad, wrong, or weak (although it is repetitive).

Click to expand...

So you're not irritated by repetitive writing then? Which is fair enough I suppose. Reminds me of what I said in my very first sentence on this thread: "part of the problem with providing it is that potential criticism often boils down to simple variation in personal preference."

And while I'm not certain of its relevancy, your point itself is still perfectly valid: some people dislike repetitive writing, whereas others might prefer it.

Alice_Rosaleen said:

I'd go so far as to say the second example is actually better

Click to expand...

Guess I now have a history of being able to improve other people's work.

The point is to offer objective criticism that others can use to grow. Complaining about style is as valid as saying "I don't like blondes. Write about redheads."

Yes it's difficult to critique. Doing it poorly is not better than not doing it.

P.S. Your complaint was not "it's repetitive." You're complaint was "This is bad. I don't like bad. Don't be like bad." Repetitive was my criticism of an example, and not indicative of the subject of the thread.

AwkwardMD said:

The point is to offer objective criticism that others can use to grow.

Click to expand...

Right. My first response offered objective criticism, criticism that you yourself agreed with by stating that the OP's story should have been written in third person past tense.

My subsequent posts were responding to people who literally asked me about my personal views, and at no point was I trying to claim or insinuate that they should be interpreted as 'objective' criticism of the OP's story.

AwkwardMD said:

P.S. Your complaint was not "it's repetitive." You're complaint was "This is bad. I don't like bad. Don't be like bad."

Click to expand...

What was my complaint, exactly? Because these imaginary quotes of what you think I've said is not remotely consistent with anything that I've actually said.

I merely presented an example which I used to try and illustrate my point, in which you literally stated that the alternative version was 'repetitive'. Perhaps you consider 'repetitive' to be bad or perhaps you don't, though I did point blank ask you what you thought on the matter and you responded in such a way that made no attempt whatsoever to address the question.

beerlovr88 said:

So many authors are dying for 'feedback', and part of the problem with providing it is that potential criticism often boils down to simple variation in personal preference.

Click to expand...

True

Thankfully I think your story has nothing to do with this. Dull, unimaginative, uninspiring; it's tempting to say that the combination of first person and present tense was a tremendous turn off, but to be fair that might have just been because of awkwardly worded and cringe-worthy sentences that were all over the place.

Click to expand...

Entirely subjective, and unnecessarily cruel.

For an example, "It's hard to be quiet in my gorgeous heels" could have instead been something along the lines of: "She cursed silently to herself; it was virtually impossible to engage in discreet maneuvers when wearing heels, and vowed to never wear them again if she could just finish the night unscathed".

Click to expand...

Entirely subjective. Your suggested correction is different, not qualitatively better, and you know that because you didn't dissect the specific objective improvements. "Here is a suggested rewrite, but good luck figuring out why this is better."

You didn't offer suggestions for improvement. All you did was tear the author down with vague insults and self-important blustering.

The grammar fails and tense fails are also all over the place, which among many other qualities, also kills the read. For another example, "I say while brushing my self off, hopefully my face isn't too red." Like really?

Click to expand...

Your tone is catty and elitist. Just critical enough to be mean but vague enough that you can throw your hands up later and feign innocence.

Don't be a bully. Be helpful.

AwkwardMD said:

Your tone is catty and elitist. Just critical enough to be mean but vague enough that you can throw your hands up later and feign innocence.

Click to expand...

Also, a man in a glass house, throwing stones.

When one wanders off, as one does, to check out the credibility of the "scholarly" advice being - let's say, "offered," to be kind - one usually finds an empty story file. This gentleman at least has a few offerings. Oh dear, they're not perfection either, not quite. One or two commas in the right place to clarify meaning would be useful, and following the publication tradition of, "two people in the room," not, "2 people in the room," would also be wise. I didn't bother looking further. Miaow, miaow.

I thought this was pretty well done. I'm not a big fan of the one-page/little build up sex stories, in general, but as one of those stories it worked, IMO.

A few specific comments, incorporating some things said by others:

1. I prefer past tense, and, usually, third-person POV, but I think present tense and first person work here. I see no reason to change that.

2. I agree with others that you have done a good job propelling the story via dialogue. As you write more stories, keep doing that (although don't overdo it).

3. With stories like these, there comes a point where things get sexual in a hurry. And the key is to make that part of the story plausible as well as fun. I think you could improve this just a bit by adding something at the beginning of the story to foreshadow the narrator's sudden sexual interest. Maybe she hasn't had sex in a while. Maybe she's touching herself. Maybe she's got a thing for baseball, or baseball players. I think you could have played up the baseball angle more, and more artfully, somehow, so when she found out he was a baseball player it not only stimulated her admiration but aroused her based on something that she had introduced to us earlier in the story. None of this has to take a lot of words -- something short. Just a touch of foreshadowing.

4. I generally agree about the "C-cup" breast thing. But here, I don't. Your character seems exactly like someone who might prize having C-cup breasts and think about them that way. This is a case where it works in the first person POV more than it might coming from a third person POV narrator.

5. I'd like to see the narrator character defined just a bit more clearly. For example, this line near the end: "You go home and get some sleep and when you become a Padre, I will let you fuck me anyway you want." I don't think she'd say that. That's giving away too much. She seems like a tease, and one that wants to be in control. But here you have her telling him she's going to give it all away. I think she'd keep teasing him, and it would have ended on a truer note that way. She'd say something clever and suggestive, to keep him coming back, but keep him in suspense about exactly what he'd get. And it would leave US, the readers, in suspense and curious, too.

6. The blow job could be a bit longer. I like some of the descriptions. The gray nails scraping down the six pack. That's good. Thighs smooth like a baby's bottom is a bit of a cliche; maybe another comparison would be more artful. Your narrator seems visually attuned, so play that up.

7. Final thing: you said you thought the story lacked emotion. I agree. That may or may not be something you want to add. But ask yourself: what do you want the emotional tone to be? Then go back to the beginning and add little bits here and there that strengthen the emotional tone or development. Have her talk to someone on the phone and say something that reveals something about herself, or do something in the office, or look out the window, etc. What is her need at the beginning of the story, and how does the story affect that need?

The story is rated low because a lot of readers want more buildup and a longer sex scene and they want to know more about what's going on inside the characters. But it's not low because of its mechanics-- there are plenty of stories on this site with scores a lot higher with much worse grammar, punctuation, and spelling.


Keep at it.

Just a thought or two...

I'm not a fan of one page stories. I'm also not a fan of baseball, nor blowjobs. I'll let the "three strikes and you're out" joke pass. Okay, that out of the way...

The first sentence made me grate to a stop. "I rotate in my executive chair one hundred eighty degrees." Are you sure it wasn't 179 degrees, or maybe 181? My point is, it's too detailed, technical, or accurate a statement when an offhand statement would have sufficed. Not saying I'm not guilty of the same issue, but that doesn't make it any better.

A better line, in my mind (gotta remember those needless caviots for the libitards that might try to claim I'm trying to speak for the masses), would be "I swiveled away from my desk to look out the window."

I also dropped off the "executive" part of it. True, it sets the field that the speaker is an executive, but it seems like posturing, to me (caviot!). That it addresses who the speaker is, is necessary, but perhaps it could have been placed somewhere else a little less awkwardly. I could also point out that, in most office buildings, having a desk in your own office, with a window, automatically suggests someone of status. Corner offices doubly so. Food for thought in obliquely tooting the "executive" horn.

Speaking of awkward phrases, "I close the blinds and my lights illuminate." First, aren't most, if not all office lights on all day long? Second, I'd add in, "automatically" if the lights have some light sensitivity trigger.

"I blow a kiss to myself in my mirror before I hear a sound outside my office door." Are you trying to make her come across as completely narcissistic? Or is the blown kiss a mockery of her recognizing she is being a teeny bit narcissistic? It could be described better, if so. Remember, YOU know what the character is thinking or why they do something, now you have to explain it, somehow, to the reader.
Also, the phrase seems a little awkward. One way to read this sentence is, she expects a loud sound to occur and blows a kiss to herself just before it happens. Adding "just as" or "just before" might make it a little better, but I think it could be phrased even better than that.

An executive on a first name basis with the janitorial staff? Sometimes happens in small companies, but it seems a little off that they are so well known to each other. I'd almost rather like to see that she pointedly looks at his name on his overalls, then using his name, which he takes to be that she is going to report him, which elicits him to simper and respond with "I'd really appreciate if you didn't mention it... blah blah blah."

"Eyes darting back and forth" suggests something underhanded is going on, like you're looking for someone else who is REALLY in a position of authority, which takes away some of the executive's street cred. "Looking up from the floor, pleadingly into her eyes" suggests to me that the janitor respectfully, recognizes her authority.

The whole "baseball try-" seems like an awkward exchange. I'm not sure if that's what they in fact call it, but I'd try dropping off that part, and just jump to her being incredulous. Do they have baseball tryouts for colleges? For that matter do they have baseball teams in colleges??? I don't think so on either account... Or perhaps you're trying to express the naivety of the executive... If so, you should try expressing this better, by having her faltering while asking him that. Strong executives don't fear letting others see their lack of knowledge outside the required sphere of knowledge to get their job done.


should be:
Even though it is perhaps her observation to what he is thinking, I think (caviot!) it reads better if you keep his actions, dialog, observations together. Note you have an extra quote mark in there.

Also, addressing this last, try to count how many actions a person does at once. Usually, one action at a time is best, although you can add an action with an expression (e.g.: slapping your head with a self mocking grin). So, she is breathing heavily, while her mouth is hanging open. It comes across as more comical instead of sexy. Unless that was your intent...

""We're done here." I say and shoo him away." Unless you're trying to make her come across like an ice queen, I'd soften it with a her expressing an indulgent smile while saying that while shooing him away. It makes her seem like an executive, while showing her human side.

"I go back to my executive chair behind my desk" again seems like posturing. Otherwise, why not say ""I go back to my executive chair behind my executive desk in my executive office"?

I'm sorry, I skimmed over the rest of it. Point of reference, I don't think there are any "bots" made to "like" things. In fact, if I recall correctly, Literotica has some software to prevent bots from voting, etc. and the software is so pervasive that it kept recognizing me as a bot and wouldn't allow me to vote for a story once. I had to ask Laurel to act on my intervention, to allow me to do such. However, those bots are usually programs a person makes to vote for themselves numerous times. As I said, I'm unaware of bots made to vote for others.

In other words, the "likes" are doubtless valid likes. Don't fret so.

The story seems better than most for a first submittal. I harped on issues, that stood out to me, because I hate gladhanding while you're looking for constructive criticisms, and that's what it seems you asked for, to me (caviot!).
I hope this helps.

AwkwardMD said:

Your tone is catty and elitist.

Click to expand...

You can voice your subjective interpretation of my tone all you'd like; though if we place aside all this subjectivity and just stick to the facts, then the fact remains that the OP politely asked for a critique of his story and then openly expressed gratitude towards me when I went out of my way to provide it.

AwkwardMD said:

unnecessarily cruel.

Don't be a bully.

Click to expand...

Well you know what they say... what goes around comes around. Or in other words, I'll be submitting my own story soon, and I'll be thrilled if you're even half as motivated to critique my future submission as you are my posts in this thread.

Hey Hey RedJamie,
Thank you for the story. Nice sneaky author namedrop halfway through I see...

A couple random critiques... since you are after them...


"I am giving him a blowjob like a pro."
"Up and down, bobbing my head like a pro"

The repitition of this rather specific phrase jumps out, and... more importantly... it feels like its TELLING us a thing. I don't feel like I see what "like a pro" means, it mainly just makes me think that the narrator is a bit full of themselves... which can be hot, but if your intent was for the reader to actually FEEL the characters cock sucking skill (as opposed to just their confidence), this sentence doesn't cut it.



Also... at the risk of sounding stupid... Reading the initial paragraph I strongly suspected a male author. The repitition of "I" along with the description of the female character being immediately physical... sort of... feeling like an EXTERNAL view of that character.
I mean hell, the gender genie on the internet assumed a male author:
http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php

.... uhhh... now this is where I start to feel stupid, because as your profile says, you are female, and so maybe I'm just being a jackass, and sterotyping or whatever for calling you out on that first paragraph.
There's just... something wrong with it. The sentences are clipped, all similar structure ("I do X"). It feels like each sentence drops one object into the room, but fails to imply what the rest of the room feels like, so even after a bunch of description the setting still feels... sparse.

... and I know that is bloody usefull feedback (please forgive me). I guess I'm just thinking that openings are IMPORTANT, and if you're trying to establish characters, and setting and do it all in a super short amount of time, you need to be economical.

Does your narrator just rotate in their chair? Or do they twirl? or spin? or drift slowly around?
Because saying that she Rotated tells us literally NOTHING about the character. Or really the setting. The whole thing of rotating and then rotating back again doesn't have any meaning to it at the moment, its just a thing that happens that costs you words.
Is it about boredom? Is she stir crazy? Or is it just an excuse to REALLY soak in the view- the sensation of power.

A bunch of stuff HAPPENS in your lead paragraph, but it doesn't feel motivated, it gives a picture of this woman, but I don't feel like I'm inside her head, I don't feel connected to her in any way.

And... when your story's this short, you NEED to build that connections fast.

beerlovr88 said:

Well you know what they say... what goes around comes around. Or in other words, I'll be submitting my own story soon, and I'll be thrilled if you're even half as motivated to critique my future submission as you are my posts in this thread.

Click to expand...

Prepare to be amazed.

LWulf said:

A better line, in my mind (gotta remember those needless caviots for the libitards that might try to claim I'm trying to speak for the masses), would be "I swiveled away from my desk to look out the window." .

Click to expand...

You use the word “caviot” many times in your comment. Do you mean “caveat” by any chance?

Emirus said:

You use the word “caviot” many times in your comment. Do you mean “caveat” by any chance?

Click to expand...

Yes. At least I'm consistent. Are you normally such a typo nazi that you chase around people that make typos in threads?

So, that you said shit, means you're probably both a libitard and typo nazi? Figures, both think they are superior to everyone else, while being just as human as everyone else.

LWulf said:

Yes. At least I'm consistent. Are you normally such a typo nazi that you chase around people that make typos in threads?

So, that you said shit, means you're probably both a libitard and typo nazi? Figures, both think they are superior to everyone else, while being just as human as everyone else.

Click to expand...

You're charming.

It is impossible to take being called a "libtard" seriously. You might as well be calling them a doofy doofy face.

AwkwardMD said:

It is impossible to take being called a "libtard" seriously. You might as well be calling them a doofy doofy face.

Click to expand...

My aim is not to eviscerate people, but to place childish antics on a childish level. *shrugs* As such, a "doofy doofy face" seems appropriate.

MelissaBaby said:

You're charming.

Click to expand...

*shrugs* I have my ways.