Story Submission Questions -- HTML Tags

I looked for an article or posting on my questions, and finding none that thoroughly addressed them, I thought I would reach out for forum help.

I posted my first submission, "An Artificial Life Ch. 01" by pasting text with basic tags for italics and
bold, no color/font info or changes, etc. Proper tags for open/closed single/double quotes were included, as well as tags for ellipses and dashes (… and —). Everything was awesome.

I was surprised and grateful at the reader response, and felt encouraged as I plowed forward with additional chapters.

I submitted Chapters 02 and 03, and after some time, they were sent back, noting that only italics and bold were permitted, no color or font changes. I was surprised, because I didn't recall making any font changes. I found a few errant page breaks, so I stripped those out, made certain that no color or font changes existed, and resubmitted by pasting the HTML source text in the story submission text box. I resubmitted.

Again, my chapters were sent back, this time because there were HTML tags for open and closed single and double quotes. Nothing was said about the ellipses or dash HTML tags, but I was suspicious that this could be a problem as well.

Rather than risking screwing up again, I submitted the chapters as RTF files and requested that bold and italics are preserved.

QUESTIONS:

Do people not use open and closed quotes in their writing (curly quotes)?
Are ellipses and dashes not permitted on the platform?
Trademark and Copyright symbols?

Finally, do submissions take longer if submitted as RTF files compared to pasting the text with "strong" and "em" tag pairs?

DigitalDreamer said:

QUESTIONS:

Do people not use open and closed quotes in their writing (curly quotes)?
Are ellipses and dashes not permitted on the platform?
Trademark and Copyright symbols?

Finally, do submissions take longer if submitted as RTF files compared to pasting the text with "strong" and "em" tag pairs?

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People do use open and closed quotes, but those characters are a standard part of most character sets. There's no need to use HTML.

Ellipses and dashes are permitted, and as with open and close quotes, they are standard characters. There's no need to use HTML.

I've seen the copyright character, but I'm not sure about the registered trademark character. Again, these are both standard characters. In unicode they are in the basic latin-1 set. The copyright character is U+A9 and the trademark character is U+AE. If you're using something other than unicode then the code will be different, but it's probably there. Again, no HTML is called for.

If you're using the basic ASCII character set then you won't have these character, but then it's hard to imagine why you'd be using ASCII.

RTF is supposed to take longer than plain text.

I only tag for italics and (only rarely) for bold. The system takes care of everything else. I cut and paste in the submissions box from a Word version. I use curly quotes, because I post elsewhere and publish and use them there. The Literotica system changes them to straight quotes but doesn't balk at doing so. I use real em and en dashes, and the Literotica system renders them just fine. I don't code for quotes. I don't code for color, I don't try to center anything, nor do I ever use color. That's outside the realm of what an author should be doing. The publisher is the book designer, not the author.

It's against the law to use the copyright symbol unless you have a formal copyright, registered and paid for, and you don't have to mark anyone else's trademark or there's no earthly reason why you'd have one of your own in a Literotica story.

KeithD said:

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It's against the law to use the copyright symbol unless you have a formal copyright, registered and paid for, and you don't have to mark anyone else's trademark or there's no earthly reason why you'd have one of your own in a Literotica story.

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Literotica puts the copyright symbol on my stories as a matter of course.

What you say about copyright is the law in the US. It isn't true in most countries in the world that are signatories to the Berne Convention. In those countries (but NOT the US) your copyright exists from the moment of creation of an original work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention

BUT - just because I'm based in the UK and my copyright exists under UK law AND the Berne Convention - that doesn't mean that I have any realistic prospect of defending my copyright against anyone who steals my work, even if they repost it on a paid-for site. Once published anywhere on the internet anyone can steal it.

If you want to protect your creation's copyright, DO NOT UPLOAD ANYWHERE to the internet. Once it is visible you can no longer effectively protect it no matter what expensive lawyers might tell you.

Even if you register it in the US and pay the necessary fee, while you might OWN the copyright, you still can't stop theft.

It is not necessary under us law to register a copyright to use the notice symbol. Circular 3 at the copyright office website explains this.

oggbashan said:

Literotica puts the copyright symbol on my stories as a matter of course.

What you say about copyright is the law in the US. It isn't true in most countries in the world that are signatories to the Berne Convention. In those countries (but NOT the US) your copyright exists from the moment of creation of an original work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention

BUT - just because I'm based in the UK and my copyright exists under UK law AND the Berne Convention - that doesn't mean that I have any realistic prospect of defending my copyright against anyone who steals my work, even if they repost it on a paid-for site. Once published anywhere on the internet anyone can steal it.

If you want to protect your creation's copyright, DO NOT UPLOAD ANYWHERE to the internet. Once it is visible you can no longer effectively protect it no matter what expensive lawyers might tell you.

Even if you register it in the US and pay the necessary fee, while you might OWN the copyright, you still can't stop theft.

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Yes, they do. They maybe are assuming that the authors register their copyrights, which, I don't think, is a very good assumption. Beyond that, Literotica hasn't been much in the know or are following copyright. Look at all of the stolen copyrighted images they let be reposted on Literotica.

I'll concede that it's true you can use the copyright symbol without registering it (a rather new wrinkle in the U.S. law), but it means squat. You can't do anything about it unless you've formally registered it. Here on Literotica, it just is a "pretend" mechanism to give a false impression of protection. It's like all those years that Literotica suggested they went after those who stole stories here and the users believed them. They have less power to do so than the original author does and no actual intention to do so.

DigitalDreamer said:

Finally, do submissions take longer if submitted as RTF files compared to pasting the text with "strong" and "em" tag pairs?

Click to expand...

What about pasting in the text box vs uploading rtf files -- any experience regarding acceptance timing?

KeithD said:

It's against the law to use the copyright symbol unless you have a formal copyright, registered and paid for, and you don't have to mark anyone else's trademark or there's no earthly reason why you'd have one of your own in a Literotica story.

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In America, maybe. In other nations (Australia, certainly) copyright is automatic and exists from the moment of creation. I don't need to register copyright to claim it (unless I wanted to seek protection in US courts, but that's most unlikely).

DigitalDreamer said:

What about pasting in the text box vs uploading rtf files -- any experience regarding acceptance timing?

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I only ever lodge .rtf files - I used to lodge .txt but that interface fell over for some reason. I've had no processing hassles with .rtf, no delays. A chapter in my latest work had an html fail with half a dozen uses of italics, but it doesn't warrant a re-submit. It also reinforced that I don't really need to use italics at all.

electricblue66 said:

In America, maybe. In other nations (Australia, certainly) copyright is automatic and exists from the moment of creation. I don't need to register copyright to claim it (unless I wanted to seek protection in US courts, but that's most unlikely).

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This is a U.S.-based site. Good luck in getting a U.S. court to take up a case of a story not formally registered in the United States stolen from a U.S.-based Web site and used anywhere else in the world. Doesn't matter if you are a French or a Chinese author posting to Literotica.

Why, oh why, do we have to go through this every couple of months? Literotica has been up for how long now? Someone find one single court case involving claims a Literotica story has been stolen and posted somewhere else--any case at all. Doesn't even have to be a successfully pursued one.

In fact, cite any case anywhere in the world on a claimed stolen Literotica story.

Best to just stop this nonsense. If it bugs the hell out of you don't post stories to the Internet. Otherwise spend your time writing rather than assuming you have protections you functionally do not have. Slapping a copyright symbol on it does absolutely nothing for you.

electricblue66 said:

I only ever lodge .rtf files - I used to lodge .txt but that interface fell over for some reason. I've had no processing hassles with .rtf, no delays. A chapter in my latest work had an html fail with half a dozen uses of italics, but it doesn't warrant a re-submit. It also reinforced that I don't really need to use italics at all.

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"no delays" means what in average days between submission and posting (not including contest material)?

I can't answer the comparison question because I only use the cut/paste submissions box.

KeithD said:

...

Why, oh why, do we have to go through this every couple of months? Literotica has been up for how long now? Someone find one single court case involving claims a Literotica story has been stolen and posted somewhere else--any case at all. Doesn't even have to be a successfully pursued one.

In fact, cite any case anywhere in the world on a claimed stolen Literotica story.

Best to just stop this nonsense. If it bugs the hell out of you don't post stories to the Internet. Otherwise spend your time writing rather than assuming you have protections you functionally do not have. Slapping a copyright symbol on it does absolutely nothing for you.

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As an amateur, semi-professional, or professional author, it does nothing for your actual protection in the real world even if you do formally register your copyright in the US.

Unless you are a major corporation with unlimited funds and a team of lawyers you have no possibility of enforcing your copyright. Even then - look at pirate DVDs, downloads of major movies on multiple sites. Disney and MGM can't stop copyright theft. What (expletive-deleted) chance have you got if the major companies can't stop copyright theft? Even President Trump can't stop the Chinese stealing US intellectual property.

As for a story posted on Literotica? What financial loss have you suffered if your story is stolen? You posted it on a FREE site.

KeithD said:

"no delays" means what in average days between submission and posting (not including contest material)?

I can't answer the comparison question because I only use the cut/paste submissions box.

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My last submission was 12 chapters (103,000 words total) submitted altogether. The first part went live in just over 48 hours, and Laurel released the remaining eleven chapters every 24 hours (a midnight server refresh somewhere in US time, taking into account time zones). It wasn't a contest entry.

Twelve .rtf files, no cut and paste into the submissions box needed. I draft and save in .rtf now, for that reason, it eliminates my content handling completely and seems to aid Laurel because it's clean text with visible html (although I don't use much html at all - just italics from time to time).

KeithD said:

Best to just stop this nonsense. If it bugs the hell out of you don't post stories to the Internet. Otherwise spend your time writing rather than assuming you have protections you functionally do not have. Slapping a copyright symbol on it does absolutely nothing for you.

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Seems to me it bugs you more than anyone else, given the amount of your screen space whenever this comes up.

It's a fair question from a newbie, and yes, we know the answer is always the same, but they're entitled to a civilised response - it's not nonsense to someone who doesn't know the answer.

As for copyright, trademark and registered symbols, I wasn't worrying about rights. It was a style issue in my story. I mention fictitious companies and products, and I was considering using the TM or (C) symbols in the story for flavor.

Cheers.

electricblue66 said:

Seems to me it bugs you more than anyone else, given the amount of your screen space whenever this comes up.

It's a fair question from a newbie, and yes, we know the answer is always the same, but they're entitled to a civilised response - it's not nonsense to someone who doesn't know the answer.

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In my last year with the U.S. government, I worked on copyright and on what the U.S. was going to do about needing to sign the Berne Convention (finally, a 100 years late) when the government wanted to be two-faced and get some benefit out of Berne but didn't want to bog down U.S. courts with any of this stuff. I didn't like the result of that.


And you aren't a newbie. You're the one who I was responding to in bringing up failure to fully recognize and accept reality on this. It is posts like yours on this that necessitates going over this yet again with newbies (who, understandably, have a hard time that truth on this could be true). Each time this comes up, someone who isn't a newbie throws fairy dust on what is a pretty blunt "if you don't want to lose it with nothing you can do about it, don't post it to the Internet" message.

KeithD said:

In my last year with the U.S. government, I worked on copyright and on what the U.S. was going to do about needing to sign the Berne Convention (finally, a 100 years late) when the government wanted to be two-faced and get some benefit out of Berne but didn't want to bog down U.S. courts with any of this stuff. I didn't like the result of that.


And you aren't a newbie. You're the one who I was responding to in bringing up failure to fully recognize and accept reality on this. It is posts like yours on this that necessitates going over this yet again with newbies (who, understandably, have a hard time that truth on this could be true). Each time this comes up, someone who isn't a newbie throws fairy dust on what is a pretty blunt "if you don't want to lose it with nothing you can do about it, don't post it to the Internet" message.

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I appreciate your passion. I really was discussing just the technical aspect of including the symbols in the fiction, not for purposes of protecting my work. I am well aware of these limitations. As for the use of the symbols, the First Amendment pretty well covers my right to use the symbols, especially in art (fiction). If the symbols are not used to convey ownership, but to impart an idea or concept, that is protected speech, for which I am more than happy to defend and assert.

But your viewpoint is noted, and you are justified in your frustration over your concerns.

I didn't post to any of your posting on copyright (that I'm aware of). I posted to a user who should know better than to Pollyanna hedge on the reality of story protection for what an author posts to the Internet--and to Literotica specifically. Being less than blunt about this is not doing the Literotica author any favors.

KeithD said:

I didn't post to any of your posting on copyright (that I'm aware of). I posted to a user who should know better than to Pollyanna hedge on the reality of story protection for what an author posts to the Internet--and to Literotica specifically. Being less than blunt about this is not doing the Literotica author any favors.

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I think your tendency to throw cold water on the hopeful has its place, but it is overstated, and to some degree, I think you're attacking a straw man.

I've been following these threads and this topic for nearly two years. No one has ever claimed that a Literotica author has successfully sued someone for copyright infringement, or that it would be easy to do so if they tried. Curiosity about the peculiarities of copyright, which usually is what brings up this topic, does not demonstrate or suggest that one has foolish ideas about the ability to sue for infringement. It's OK to be realistic about the utility of copyright here but also be curious how it works.

You're absolutely right that it would be very, very difficult to pursue a remedy in court for infringement of a Literotica story. You'd have to register the copyright, hire and pay gobs of money to a lawyer, and ultimately reveal who you are in court filings. Most people here don't want to do that.

But you can vindicate your rights without suing. I've done that. I caught someone ripping off one of my Literotica stories, and I contacted them and told them to cut it out and they did.

Most people are chicken, and smart people want to avoid lawsuits like the plague. If you take a few steps, like using a copyright notice, and get aggressive and diligent with wrongdoers, many of them will back off. So you are right that use of a copyright notice doesn't get you that far legally, but little things like that may help give you some leverage in resolving a dispute short of litigation. And it doesn't cost anything to do.

SimonDoom said:

You're absolutely right that it would be very, very difficult to pursue a remedy in court for infringement of a Literotica story.

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And you're understating the truth. Again, point to a single case, anywhere in the world at any time of Literotica's history, of a Literotica story steal claim being accepted in any court whatsoever.

Just stop providing this false hope of anything. The only thing that works is bluff--sometimes.

Stop perpetuating this false belief to Literotica authors. This is not serving Literotica authors well.

KeithD said:

And you're understating the truth. Again, point to a single case, anywhere in the world at any time of Literotica's history, of a Literotica story steal claim being accepted in any court whatsoever.

Just stop providing this false hope of anything. The only thing that works is bluff--sometimes.

Stop perpetuating this false belief to Literotica authors. This is not serving Literotica authors well.

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KeithD, you're hitting at the strawman again. Nobody is offering false hope. Nobody is taking it. None of this is happening. You're concerned about something that isn't a concern. I've conceded that there are no examples (that I know of) and that suing is not a realistic option (unless, like no one else here, you've registered your copyright, have a special litigation fund set aside, and are willing to unveil who you are to the world so you can sue).

But you CAN sometimes vindicate your rights out of court. Not always. You have to be realistic. But being realistic doesn't mean throwing your hands up in the air and saying it's all hopeless and I accept that my story, once published here, has gone with the wind. I've done it so I know it can be done.

It's worthwhile knowing what your rights are even if enforcing them may in most cases be difficult. I don't believe that saying that is giving false hope.

My publisher has done it too. By bluff, as I said, not by starting off thinking that the current state of copyright gives me any real control beyond bluff on what I post to the Internet--or even publish in ebook form through distributors on the Internet.

I reject your assertion that what posters dance around here concerning copyright protections is not giving newbies a false sense of their protections and their options of redress.

And I don't think you or anyone else posting to this thread can match me for experience on this issue, either on Literotica or in the marketplace.

Again, what I see every time this pops up is false information and hope being given to inexperienced Literotica authors who are grasping at any straw that gives them this false sense of security and protection.

As I have posted before there is something you can do to at least cut down on someone stealing your work from here and making a profit off it through Amazon or Smashwords or some other Internet publisher/distributor. You can have it published there yourself a long time before releasing it anywhere on Internet sites. This takes the sting out of someone profiting off your work; you've already taken profit off it yourself. It's also one of the quickest and most effective ways to get Amazon, for instance, to take down a stolen work. You can point to it already being for sale on Amazon. This makes it pretty clear to Amazon that it's yours and not the property of the latter publishing "author." They take the stolen work down in their own self-interest and without much "prove it' hassle.

Worrying all that much about your work being stolen and slapped on some fly-by-night Web site, however, is a time-consuming whack-a-mole effort with little satisfactory result or lasting effect. You'd best just keep putting your effort and time to turning the work out and not think of each one you've already written as a real baby--it's not. Stories are a renewable resource.

KeithD said:

And you aren't a newbie. You're the one who I was responding to in bringing up failure to fully recognize and accept reality on this.

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FFS, can't you read? Where have I EVER said I think I have any creation rights in the US?

I know I don't have rights in the US, but I sure as shit know I have copyright in Australia, from the moment of creation. That's all I've ever said on this matter - pointing out that America isn't the whole world, and suggesting that it's a legit question for a newbie writer to wonder about their rights; and their entitlement to a civilised answer, not a belittling one, which is how you always respond.

The topic is publishing on Literotica (and what, if anything, slapping a copyright symbol on your posted story does for you) and I addressed your rights up the line. Your Australian rights mean absolutely nothing in terms of protecting the stories you post to the U.S.-based Literotica free-use Web site. You can scream about your Australian rights until you're blue in the face about your Literotica stories being stolen and published elsewhere. No one has gotten a suit on this to court in the United States or anywhere else (unless they can cite a source on one) and your chances of enforcing your "nifty" Australian rights legally are zilch. Beyond stated rights, as Ogg has pointed out, you valued your story as worth nothing when you posted it here. Courts operate on financial loss. You post here, you don't have any financial loss. Everyone choosing to post stories at Literotica needs to know and fully understand the worthlessness of copyright to them on posted Literotica stories and stop pretending otherwise. It does them no good to fantasize about their nonexistent enforceable protections.