Celibacy

I know my comments will probably have me branded as an insensitive ass but frankly, I couldn't live without sex. I have no desire to be celibate nor could I live that way. Maybe guys are different, but during my life, I've known and had relationships with married women who, for one reason or another, had been "forced" to live without getting satisfying sex from their husbands. They had kids and other obligations so divorce was not an option at that time in their lives. A few opted for a discrete uncomplicated relationship with me, (who was a guy in the same boat) some lasting for years.

If you are celibate and you can live with it, fine for you. If you've tried and your partner is not working with you, and you can divorce and move on with your life, do it. It would probably make you both happier. If you can't divorce, it may be time to find a "friend with benefits". It's so very easy for women, tougher for men. All a woman needs to do is let a friend or co-worker know what she needs and she will have no problem finding it. Ok, call me an ass, but life is too short to live it in frustration, loneliness, and misery. Sorry of you don't agree, but I learned that there are a lot of people out there finding what then need in secret. It's sad, but it's a fact of life.

pplwatching said:

I think it may be a red herring to look at your attractiveness as a woman and success as a person and try to draw conclusions about your husbands desire for sex. This isn't about your accomplishments and your sexual attractiveness. This is about him, and about your marriage. Changing your focus may be helpful.



Most of us tend to shut down communication when our feelings are hurt. We don't want to risk being vulnerable again when our lover has hurt us. The problem is that what's really happened is that one more barrier to communication has been added to the marriage. "My feelings have been hurt, so I won't risk being vulnerable again". Part of the work in maintaining a healthy marriage is taking that risk over and over again. To be vulnerable because vulnerability leads to emotional intimacy. Sex is communication and when we make an effort to please our partner sexually we are communicating our desire to have a deeper intimate relationship with them. Your feelings are justified, but be aware that holding on to past hurts isn't going to help you solve your problem today. Have you ever told him that you were proud of that BJ and that his comment was hurtful?


His issues could be hormonal, but since you've mentioned childbirth as being the time that things changed you may find some answers there. It's not uncommon for men to view their wives differently after childbirth. You went from being (pardon the expression) a fuck bunny to being a mother. Some men have difficulty reconciling the two, and he may need to learn how to rethink that.


Believe it or not, you are not alone. There are a surprising number of women in your situation asking the same question on marriage discussion boards. I don't have a prescription answer for you, but in my opinion the answer to this question is a process of discovery.

First, communicate. In my marriage, things didn't really start to change until my wife understood that our sexual intimacy was a serious problem. She knew it bothered me, but she didn't know how to approach the problem - and so the problem persisted because we were both willing to keep up the appearance that it wasn't a serious problem. Sex is fun and feels good, but it also builds and maintains intimacy and emotional well being as a couple. Things didn't start getting better until we both openly acknowledged that our sex life was putting our marriage at risk. Not on any given day, because we did love each other and wanted to be married to each other, but because over time the absence of sex was eroding our intimate emotional relationship.

My suggestion then is that you first take ownership of this problem. If it's a problem for you, it's a problem for the marriage, period. Don't rug sweep it, and don't let it go on the back burner where it will slowly eventually boil over. Your husband needs to understand that your feelings are the kinds of feelings that lead even the most loving and dedicated spouses down the garden path to eventual failure. It may help to take the focus off of sex, and temporarily divert it to the health and quality of your marriage.

I was able to tell my wife that I felt that we were growing apart, and that her rejection of me sexually (she didn't view it as rejection at the time, by the way) undermined my self confidence and my confidence in our marriage. I think we both finally saw that no matter how much we love each other, a marriage can't survive such a void. Yes, we can choose not to divorce but did we really want to live a marriage in name only? For us, the answer was "no" so we had to roll up our sleeves and do the hard work of looking at was wrong together.

From there, it's an iterative process. Start by getting him to agree to discover what's wrong. Get hormones tested. If they're normal, then look at how your being a mother affected his sexual desire for you. Explore how your wage earning potential affects him. Does he feel "less of a man" because you earn more? Is he resentful that your work, combined with motherhood, leaves you with less time for him? All of these questions can be asked and addressed.

I wish you the best of luck.

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This post should be framed someplace, thank you, this is out of the park!

In one sense, query and Hussar, while their ideas are 2000 year old Abrahamic nonsense, have a point in that someone has to take the bull by the horns, so to speak, and attempt to fix the marriage, or at least get it there. Things don't happen by osmosis and unless people work at it, it won't change. There are a variety of reasons why sex dies, and at least with gay women it is as common IME as it is with straight couples (known as Lesbian Bed Death) and when the glow wears off, it often happens. I think the power of sex isn't necessarily the sex itself, spreading the seed and all that jazz, it is in the intimacy and shared bonds it generates in a couple and that is what ends up killing marriages, when that is lacking.

VA_Boy said:

I went round and round with this for 9 years. When my wife and I started dating we were very sexually active and it was quite satisfying. Slowly sex dried up, at the end I was going once every 3 months. Turned out she had medical problems for which there was no cure which brought on depression. I stuck it out, but since there were no kids I ultimately decided to divorce. Tough choice, but for me it was the right one. Happily re married. Unfortunately she overdosed about 3 years ago.

Sex is a part of a healthy and happy relationship unless both parties agree to abstinence. Why live in misery when you can live in happiness?

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If you are saying your wife killed herself? If so I am sorry for your loss.

njlauren said:

Women work because they want to provide for their families, and they also know another dirty little secret, that educational opportunities are strongly tied to family economics, and if they have any hope for their kids future, they know what needs to be done.

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Women who want a career should have one, because life's too short not to go after goals and live a fulfilling life. My mother is president of a company. My wife's an MBA who chooses to be a stay at home mom. I love them both and respect their choices.

To say that one's political views must make them blind to reality is just as short sighted as saying that everyone's poor because of their personal choices and our consumer oriented society. Both grossly oversimplify the realities of life. There are people on both ends of the spectrum. This is not about the GOP's blindness any more than it's the Democrat's entitlements. Some women work because they want to provide for their families. Some people work out of true necessity, because not working means going without essentials. I volunteer in a manner that sometimes involves going to people's homes. I've seen people on assistance with cable TV and a carton of cigarettes. I've seen others watch every penny and still not be able to afford simple things. On the other hand we have friends who have two car payments, cable TV, kids with iPads and data plans, and big screen TVs. We don't have to look very far to see examples from both sides of the coin. We love our friends dearly, but while they question the fact that I drive a 1993 vehicle they bemoan that they can't afford for one spouse to take time off for vacation, much less to pursue higher education or even to be a stay at home spouse. My brother is broke and struggling, yet has satellite T.V..

Being a stay at home parent is a full time job, and yes my wife's efforts at home enable me to focus on earning money for our family. It does increase my earning potential, but some dominos have to fall into place to make it happen in the first place. We are both fortunate that my job enables her to stay at home, but we also make choices that limit our expenses where we can. All of us make choices. Our choices aren't any better than anyone else's choices, but they are ours to make.

Smart women are an incredible turn on, but women who think make me melt. If my wife wanted to go back to work tomorrow, I'd support her choice.

Posts like the one above are why I've had a secret crush on Ppl for awhile now. Just sayin.'

pplwatching said:

Women who want a career should have one, because life's too short not to go after goals and live a fulfilling life. My mother is president of a company. My wife's an MBA who chooses to be a stay at home mom. I love them both and respect their choices.

To say that one's political views must make them blind to reality is just as short sighted as saying that everyone's poor because of their personal choices and our consumer oriented society. Both grossly oversimplify the realities of life. There are people on both ends of the spectrum. This is not about the GOP's blindness any more than it's the Democrat's entitlements. Some women work because they want to provide for their families. Some people work out of true necessity, because not working means going without essentials. I volunteer in a manner that sometimes involves going to people's homes. I've seen people on assistance with cable TV and a carton of cigarettes. I've seen others watch every penny and still not be able to afford simple things. On the other hand we have friends who have two car payments, cable TV, kids with iPads and data plans, and big screen TVs. We don't have to look very far to see examples from both sides of the coin. We love our friends dearly, but while they question the fact that I drive a 1993 vehicle they bemoan that they can't afford for one spouse to take time off for vacation, much less to pursue higher education or even to be a stay at home spouse. My brother is broke and struggling, yet has satellite T.V..

Being a stay at home parent is a full time job, and yes my wife's efforts at home enable me to focus on earning money for our family. It does increase my earning potential, but some dominos have to fall into place to make it happen in the first place. We are both fortunate that my job enables her to stay at home, but we also make choices that limit our expenses where we can. All of us make choices. Our choices aren't any better than anyone else's choices, but they are ours to make.

Smart women are an incredible turn on, but women who think make me melt. If my wife wanted to go back to work tomorrow, I'd support her choice.

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Well said sir! (Hits the thumbs up button)

Seems we are discussing a battle of the sexes. Is that what it all boils down to?

Perhaps at times we need to remember sex is more than an act, more than an orgasm and intimacy doesn't always need to involve intercourse. Do you hold hands, kiss more than just on the cheek, slap each other in the ass, shower together, rub her feet, rub his back???? I'm sure I could go on and on.

I know lives are busy, but how long would it take to send a text that says, "I love you," or "you're sexy as hell." Anything to let the other know they do matter.

The problem is, all this lack of intimacy breeds further lack of intimacy for generations to come. Our kids don't see the touching or loving things that are missing....What will their marriages bring?

You bring up some good points divinity. Showing intimacy such as holding hands, kissing, and a playful on the butt are great ways to show intimacy to your partner. And done to your spouse in front of your kids reinforces a stable loving image for your kids. What is so frustrating for me and I suspect for ohwhynot is that intimacy doesn't translate into the bedroom. My wife will often kiss me on the cheek or pat my bum, but she hasn't initiated sex in over five years and it was several years before that since her previous initiation of sex.

I lost interest in sex when I was married to my ex. It wasn't that I didn't want to have sex--I just didn't want to have sex with him, and out-of-the bedroom issues had a lot to do with it. Haven't had this issue with my husband, and we've been married for 11 years now.

whisperman71 said:

That's all fine and dandy if you don't have kids. Blowing up a kids life because you aren't getting laid on a regular basis is pretty damn selfish. I never knew a time when my parents were married and growing up with divorced parents sucked. I don't know if you have kids or have ever been married but its easy to tell your wife to 'give it up' or I'm out the door but, threatening to leave is pointless unless you are ready to leave. If you are ready then just leave threatening is pointless, just leave. I've been telling my wife for years that I'm not happy with our love life and it hasn't made a difference. Some problems don't have an easy solution and this one of them.

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I grew up with parents who should have divorced 17 years before they did, but they decided to "stay together for the sake of the children." Sorry, but that's bullshit--and abusive.

You and your wife owe it to your children to model healthy relationships. Guaran-fucking-teed that your children know what's up--they're not stupid. I knew when I was three years old that my parents' relationship was not "right."

Noor said:

If you are saying your wife killed herself? If so I am sorry for your loss.

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Yes, she did. Thank you for your kind words. Any time somebody close to you does that, you have to ask "could I have done something to prevent it?"

My two cents..

The interesting idea from Hussar (?) is the one in which men by their gender and therefore inherent masculine proclivities 'must' work outside the home and women 'must' care for the house. As if these roles are in line with the basic strengths and weakness of each gender.

I am about to speak in generalizations. I recognize that not all men and women fit into these roles, these are more or less generalizations for the genders!!


Actually the reverse is true. Men are statistically better suited for domestic life and women for corporate life.

Men are better time managers, possess the ability to focus on the task at hand and are faster to establish routines. They are also able to handle the drudge and mishaps of family life without the guilt women often feel when women don't do things 'perfectly'

Conversely women work better in group settings, compromise better, and have more of a 'get along' attitude. Women are also better able to multitask and to compartmentalize their lives.

There was a study done but damned if I can find it! I know I read it somewhere but can't remember. Anyone know of the studying I am thinking of?

ETA* I am not endorsing one view over other or that all men should stay at home. But simply addressing the idea that men are not suited for 'staying at home'. In truth many of what are considered 'male attributes or tendencies' are actually very well suited for taking care of the home, while the women work.

GorgeousGeekGirl said:

I have been advised that I should try taking his olive branch of "quit chatting and we will start having sex." I have also flipped it around on him: "if we start having sex, ill tell my chat buddies to go pound sand." The chatting is new, the lack of sex is not. Before venting my frustrations chatting, I tried tons of tactics and got every excuse imaginable.

It's been suggested that I'm now emotionally closed to him and the marriage is dying and falling apart. Nailed that on the spot. The lack of love and affection has been tearing me down to the point where it's affected my health.

One thing that drives me and other sexually oriented people nuts is the idea that sex can only take place when EVERYTHING else in a marriage is perfect. The house has to be spotless, and every bill must be paid, and both jobs must be good, and all issues must be agreed upon in a manner that pleases the non-sexual spouse, and if any one thing goes minutely wrong for a second, that is justification for not having sex.

Here's the deal: work sucks, my sex life shouldn't depend on if your boss was a tool today. Bills suck, we are in a recession, and not having sex won't get that bill paid any faster. Housework sucks, spent 3 hours cleaning today, and sorry if there's still one more load of dishes in the sink, but can I get some credit/nookie for the other things I did do? I've capitulated on everything that comes up, your stupid fishtank I don't think we can afford, watching the same boring reruns on tv of only shows you like, doing all the grocery shopping because you don't like it, when it's my birthday going to the restaurant you want. I let you have your way on everything, and still no love or appreciation.

Every time I meet a condition, there is something else that isn't perfect because its life, and that is used as justification, or there is an endless series of other excuses. "I know I promised sex, but my back is out. I know I promised sex but my allergies are acting up. I know I promised sex but my stomach is upset, my shoulder hurts, I have a headache, I'm tired." Or there's the delays: "we will have sex after this movie, after we get the house clean, after we work on the fishtank, after dinner, after you go grocery shopping, after our friends leave after I just called and asked them to come over as soon as you suggested sex."

It's been suggested that I'm bitter and resentful. Ya think?! How do we overcome my bitterness and resentment over no sex? How about by having sex?

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There are times when sex is difficult, having just come off a 76 hour week, and months of 60+ hour weeks of no lunch hours, going home and working late, etc, there comes a point where it is physically next to impossible to have sex, you get so overwhelmed, etc, that it just doesn't happen.

That said, I also have had sex at 2am on a day I got up at 6:30, and had to get up at 6:30 the next day, because we both needed it and had a night owl teenager prowling around and such......so if there is a will there is a way.

I am going to offer some suggestions, and I want to say up front that it may seem like i am blaming you or putting the onus on you, but I am not, I promise, there is something wrong here and if what you write is true, your H has some issues, big ones.

My first one if there is any way, seek out counseling for yourself. You can't change your H or help him if you can't gain your own strength, and the problem with advice on here is it will be all over the place, based on people's backgrounds (including mine), and few of us are professionals (and some of the people on here claiming training, I read some of their responses and cringe...). The reason is to focus on what you need and come up with a strategy to deal with what is going on, therapists are trained to do that, and also to help get you strong enough to do what you need to do....and yeah, i spent a number of years in therapy doing just that..

Reading your background, the biggest thing there is one of the obvious culprits, you give in time and again, you aren't able to set boundaries, set what you need, and H knows it. If I had to guess, it is probably easier simply to give in, you don't have the heart to fight for what you need, and I understand that only too well. I gave in to my birth family on anything, they would think nothing of showing up at my house, without calling, without being invited, and expect that we would drop everything for them. At one point I had a boat, and on a weekend day my brother or sister would show up, expecting to go out and use the boat, when they hadn't called me, made plans..and would get furious if I said I had plans, etc...and I would back down. There was a weird dynamic in my family, there was a lot of not good stuff where in effect intimidation was used, punishments way out of proportion to the crime and so forth, so I had a morbid fear of them being angry at me. It was so bad it endangered my own family, my family of origin had no boundaries, and they saw my own family as somehow an auxiliary to 'The family', and it wasn't good....I ended up in therapy, and I ended up finally pushing back in a way that many people would judge me as being a prick, but i had to do it to protect my marriage and my own little family..I paid a price, I was ostracized, but it gave us a family life I otherwise wouldn't have, my son a life without the bullshit and unhealthy crap that would have descended on him.

You mention that on your birthday, you go where he wants, you mention that he manipulates you into everything being his way, god forbid dirty dishes are in the sink, or you don't watch what he wants. You moved to be closer to his family (can I hazard a guess that you spend a lot of time around his family, that they dominate things?) and that cost you on the job front, and the question you have to ask yourself, as my therapist asked me so many times, where are you in this? A therapist will tell you people will treat you as you let them, and that is true, and your H knows you in the end will cave in to him. I don't know if he is asexual, or if he lives up in his head and jerks off to porn, what I do know is he, like with everything else, is not going to recognize your need for sex, not would he ever be willing to say 'you know, I don't want to have sex, so you should find people to have sex with', he is going to tell you "I don't care about sex, so therefore, you don't deserve to have any" and he knows you won't push back. Your going online is probably you trying to find a solution that doesn't involve real cheating, and what does he do? He says "if you stop the online flirting, I'll have sex with you", once again manipulating you to do what he wants, and I would bet a month's pay that if you do, like with all the other things like the house is spotless, he watches his favorite programs, etc, you will do as he asks, and he will basically ignore it and keep doing what he does.

It is why it is important to get help if you can, they can help you gain the strength you need and also help you understand what your options are. You seem like a decent person, a lot of people would say fuck you to him and have an affair, you aren't doing that, which means you have some sense of internal honor that won't let you do that.

I also more than understand why you stay and it is very easy for people to tell you 'you should just leave'..I faced that when I was in transition, I was on the cusp of going full time, had hair down my back, I was getting ma'amed all over the place, was living a large part of my life as Lauren.....and due to my job disappearing and facing my wife saying she couldn't go down this path with me, and knowing if I did go forward we would break up and it would ruin my son's dreams for financial and other reasons, I pulled back, stopped transition, in a sense killed myself off...and a lot of people judged me because I didn't pull the trigger, it hurt, but I also know, with my S now a young man and in the first phases of really pursuing his dream and knowing my decision let that happen, it was worth it......

And I think you need to get that strength in therapy, because you may be able to salvage your marriage, but only if you start pushing back. I obviously can't guarantee anything, but my gut feeling tells me that if you push back, stand your ground, eventually he will cave in and if he threatens you with leaving you, it would probably be pure bluster. The reason I say that is people like your H, who manipulate people the way he does, often are pretty insecure and once they realize the other person is not going to back down, they know they don't have the backbone to stand up to it. I realize you worry about your financial security, about what will happen if you do stand your ground, it is why I emphasized talking to someone if you can find a way to do it, because they will help you see things clearly that I cannot do writing on this forum, and also could back up what I am saying (or tell you I am full of shit, too....

I think a good first step is to call him on his latest bluff, in that I agree with others. Stop the online flirting and very decisively tell him you have stopped, and then tell him "I did as you asked, it obviously bothered you and I respect you enough to do as you ask...and now it is your turn to respect me and give me what I desire, I want intimacy, I want touch I want us to have sex, to show me that you love and respect me the way I try to show you". If he gives you this stuff about feeling uncomfortable about sex, having no desire, then tell him "if you respect and love me, then we need to solve this problem, we need to get you to the doctor and see if there is anything physically wrong; if not, I need you to go to counseling with me, because sex is important to a marriage, it is not disgusting or wrong in a marriage, every religious group other than the Shakers believe sex is the foundation of the loving marriage, so there is no reason for us to abstain from it, it isn't disgusting, it is beautiful".

Obviously, he may balk, and it could be you finally give up but from what I see, you have tried, and if you work with a counselor maybe they can help you figure out what the end game is. I doubt he will ever agree to an open marriage, people who have hangups about sex in marriage also have strong beliefs about things like open marriages, it is truly a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation, they have been warped in a way that contradicts itself, they don't want sex with you, but also think that having sex outside the marriage is an insult to them or is immoral or whatever, they adhere to the teaching that sex outside the marriage is a sin but don't quite hear that sex inside the marriage is a sacrament, not a sin.....*sigh*. In the end, a therapist may allow you to find your own way, maybe telling him to fuck off, if he won't give you sex you'll get it elsewhere, or doing that quietly (or not, no therapist would ever tell you to cheat, but they might point out that you are depriving yourself of sex and it is his fault, not yours), or maybe they can help you figure out how to move on, how to get on your feet and be able to support yourself.

I don't know if this helped, but if you listen to anything please find someone professional to talk about this, to gain the strength you need to get what you deserve. You can't change another person, you can only change yourself and hope when you change, it forces them to work on themselves

I can't offer you much more than that, if PM'ing would help, feel free, though again I am not a professional, just dealt with a lot of shit in my life.

pplwatching said:

Women who want a career should have one, because life's too short not to go after goals and live a fulfilling life. My mother is president of a company. My wife's an MBA who chooses to be a stay at home mom. I love them both and respect their choices.

To say that one's political views must make them blind to reality is just as short sighted as saying that everyone's poor because of their personal choices and our consumer oriented society. Both grossly oversimplify the realities of life. There are people on both ends of the spectrum. This is not about the GOP's blindness any more than it's the Democrat's entitlements. Some women work because they want to provide for their families. Some people work out of true necessity, because not working means going without essentials. I volunteer in a manner that sometimes involves going to people's homes. I've seen people on assistance with cable TV and a carton of cigarettes. I've seen others watch every penny and still not be able to afford simple things. On the other hand we have friends who have two car payments, cable TV, kids with iPads and data plans, and big screen TVs. We don't have to look very far to see examples from both sides of the coin. We love our friends dearly, but while they question the fact that I drive a 1993 vehicle they bemoan that they can't afford for one spouse to take time off for vacation, much less to pursue higher education or even to be a stay at home spouse. My brother is broke and struggling, yet has satellite T.V..

Being a stay at home parent is a full time job, and yes my wife's efforts at home enable me to focus on earning money for our family. It does increase my earning potential, but some dominos have to fall into place to make it happen in the first place. We are both fortunate that my job enables her to stay at home, but we also make choices that limit our expenses where we can. All of us make choices. Our choices aren't any better than anyone else's choices, but they are ours to make.

Smart women are an incredible turn on, but women who think make me melt. If my wife wanted to go back to work tomorrow, I'd support her choice.

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Obviously I cannot argue with you that the range of what is real out there is quite large, and yes, there are people where both work because they want to drive BMW's and live in a track mansion and play golf and go on fancy vacations. And yes, there are people who are poor who spend money on expensive tv's, booze and cigarettes and their kids don't eat well, and so forth.

However, the reality of both parents working for many people isn't because they want fancy vacations and fancy cars and the big house, they both work because they need both incomes to live at a level comparable to what their parents had when they were growing up, to have a house, to save money for retirement and so forth. I was responding to the Rush Limbaughs and the GOP propoganda machine, that tries to cover up the fact that real incomes have declined in the past 40 years for almost everyone below the top 2%, and to cover up that the top 1% right now have record levels of income and wealth that even beats the 1920's, when it was previously at its peak. Ole Rush and the religious reich types say women working outside the home are power crazed feminists, or are materialistic harlots who want designer clothing, fancy vacations, etc, and while there are people like that, every economic study I have looked at says the trend to multi income households was simply an attempt to tread water, to stay at a level they had grown up at.

Sure, a couple with kids could potentially have a SAHM, and choose to live in an area that is dirt cheap to live in, but then again, what are the consequences? Usually, desirable areas are desirable in part because they have good schools, houses are might cheap in Detroit right now, but would you live there?

And yes, there are people who could live comfortably on 1 salary but are greedy, want everything, but what I am saying is they don't represent the majority and every economic study outside of crap from the Cato institute backs this up. I see this with coworkers, they don't have fancy houses and cars, but they want their kid to go to college, they want to live in an area with good schools where they don't have to live behind barbed wire or worry their kid will get shot, they don't take fancy vacations or drive fancy cars and if they eat out, it is applebees or the like, not an expensive restaurant, they also want to be able to save money for retirement. Even for white collar people, this is the reality, costs have gone through the roof and salaries have stagnated, and in going to college, the cost of tuition and such has skyrocketed, but for middle income families aid has been slashed when many private colleges are approaching 50k+ year, and state schools are facing cuts in their programs and rising tuitions and housing, where they are moving near 30k in some states....

We are a SAHM family, and I am fortunate that I have the skills to make a pretty nice living, and it has allowed us to give our son things we thought he should have. Not designer clothing, we don't do vacations, we run cars into the ground, we don't have fancy jewelry or a pool, we don't go to expensive restaurants,our house is not a tract mansion it is a 1950's development house we renovated, and while we have cable tv and several tv's, that is about it. We did send our S to private school for several years (full freight), we did support his dream of becoming a musician, with the lessons and programs and such, and now he is going to one of the top music schools in the world, and we are paying pretty much full freight...and my W pretty much had to be his full time assistant, making sure things worked out for him. But I am lucky, I have the skills and am in the right industry that I can do this, and maybe have some money saved for when I finally (hopefully) can retire.

But for many Americans, it is about simply surviving, trying to have some semblance of a middle class lifestyle that once was taken for granted, when blue collar manufacturing jobs and even retail jobs paid enough to be comfortable, that isn't true any more. Put it this way, there have been studies of women's attitudes with working, and something like 70% of working moms said they would rather be SAHM, but they need the second income simply to be able to afford a decent house in a decent area and to enjoy modest comforts, like not living on tuna and peanut butter and maybe once in a while taking a family vacation. I think what disturbs me about those who claim it is greedy people who want it all is they say this about working people, middle class people, yet are not surprisingly mute about the glaring greed you see among the wealthy, where the motto "enough is never enough' seems to be the rallying cry, where CEO's cook the books to boost the stock price, or send 20,000 jobs to China so they can make 20 million instead of 15. The top 1% today control well over 20% of the income and about 80% of the wealth, yet they call working moms greedy....

devinity7 said:

Seems we are discussing a battle of the sexes. Is that what it all boils down to?

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Well, when you are only interested in the opposite sex, and you aren't getting any sex from them because they apparently aren't interested with you, it's difficult not to be bitter.

blulilacgrl said:

My two cents..

The interesting idea from Hussar (?) is the one in which men by their gender and therefore inherent masculine proclivities 'must' work outside the home and women 'must' care for the house. As if these roles are in line with the basic strengths and weakness of each gender.

I am about to speak in generalizations. I recognize that not all men and women fit into these roles, these are more or less generalizations for the genders!!


Actually the reverse is true. Men are statistically better suited for domestic life and women for corporate life.

Men are better time managers, possess the ability to focus on the task at hand and are faster to establish routines. They are also able to handle the drudge and mishaps of family life without the guilt women often feel when women don't do things 'perfectly'

Conversely women work better in group settings, compromise better, and have more of a 'get along' attitude. Women are also better able to multitask and to compartmentalize their lives.

There was a study done but damned if I can find it! I know I read it somewhere but can't remember. Anyone know of the studying I am thinking of?

ETA* I am not endorsing one view over other or that all men should stay at home. But simply addressing the idea that men are not suited for 'staying at home'. In truth many of what are considered 'male attributes or tendencies' are actually very well suited for taking care of the home, while the women work.

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Actually, I agree generally with most of the above. Although it kind of depends on what you do in the way of work outside the home. If we are talking life in corporate America women do better at that and will continue to do so until they eventually supplant most men out of corporate America... not saying that in a bitter sense it's just that their better at working on a team they're better at complying with directives and so forth.

And you're absolutely right about routines I tried for years to explain how putting dishes into a sink and covering them with water and coming back a couple hours (or in some cases a couple of days) later only results in having reaching into the greasy water to start ...I'm great at developing routines to get things done. I can do dishes like you can't believe. I was an AWESOME janitor because I could see what needed cleaning and the quickest way to make it "good enough' and sanitary, I am amazing at laundry, When it got ridiculous I'd load up the kids go to the laundromat and load 30 machines..(not kidding)... I cook like a chef.. I shop smart while planning meals incredibly well....I can iron, sew. She was the envy of all her friends because I would get up in the night feed, change, and rock back to sleep while she dealt with post-partum.....


All that said I'm not sure though that there isn't something hardwired into our brains were the man go out and kill the beast and the women cook them.

My citation was the recent study showing that man who do the housework don't get laid I can attest to that...


When work was slow and I helped around the house I think to a certain extent she felt somewhat diminished because one of the things I discovered from years with lots of roommate is the person with the least tolerance for filth is always the first one to do the dishes.

She was always saying things like "I was just going to do that".... I knew for a fact that she was in fact not about to do that probably wouldn't do it for several more days if left to her own devices... was I resentful about that? Sometimes, but sometimes not.. Just the expediency of getting it done I would just go ahead and do it.


Back then, I was for the most part self employed in a white collar profession... people actually back then used to pay me for my opinions -now they pay me to shut up...

Anyway when work was so busy that I personally could not help around the house, she'd either rise to the task or sometimes we would hire her sister to come in and clean, and my wife would take on the role of secretary/ appointment scheduler and do a lot of the typing that was involved in my profession.


I think she found that much more rewarding and since we were both legitimately busy working she had no mommy guilt holding her back and causing her to assume that I'm resentful and resenting me for my assumed resentment.

A little useful aside: New guy...same girl. He was a late in life baby...his mom was 50. He has had mom, sisters, daughters, 2 ex wives, and now MY ex-wife waiting on him hand and foot. She SEEMS happy, and you know what? her house is REMARKABLY cleaner. And, no...it isnt that he's some high
status man with lots of cash to bribe her with...she in fact has to work full time these days and STILL is willing to do what he would term "woman's work". I don't KNOW what their sexual frequency is, but given that he SOUNDS like my friend above Hussar in his attitudes towards women's roles, so I'm gonna guess he wouldn't even acknowledge he WAS being shut-out and just bull ahead.


Those times when I was busy doing work and just doing nothing to help around the house I was getting laid like tile... and I never really noticed it except now in hindsight but those times when I really was doing quite a bit more than 50 percent of the work around the house she always have some excuse some reason not to come to bed when I did or to go to bed and feign sleep before I did.


I'm actually very gender flexible both and gender presentation as well as tasks but ...

What I've been saying is if your spouse who prior to the wedding day was all about sex is now not about sex it's because she no longer sees you as a man that arouses her. Or conversely a woman that arouses the man... is it the denied partners fault? of course not.


Did that 'earn' me sex? Not necessarily...often she would joke, "Oh I you a blowjob for that." She usually didn't follow through. Getting laid was an independent occurrence to how helpful I was or was not around the house.


A lot of times it had more to do with how she felt about herself and her eating/weight issues. Although that's sort of chicken or egg...and no of course I didn't compound that by making demeaning or really any commentary about her weight. I would cheer her successes and ignore the lapses. When and if SHE wanted to work on it I would support her diet concerns, cook lite for her, but expensive prepackaged stuff if that helped her willpower or whatever. She has acknowledged though there was a relationship between her weight and any resentments (some justified certainly) she had towards me.

When a woman WITH a sex drive "loses" it. (barring medical issues of course) there is something underlying. Usually anger. Never lost mine ever so I cant say but I suggest that men also harbor resentments and as in the examples above "punish" the sexual spouse with with-holding. Its a control issue...its destructive and wrong whichever the genders.

That said lets return to dating, as opposed to married or cohabiting couples...when a woman or man is angry, or hurt or resentful, and the other person is not under their thumb in the same bed in the same house..stuck there so to speak, with theoretically no other sexual options...this behavior of with-holding carries a lot of risk to the passive aggressive one, and the other partner can simply find someone else. Why do suppose there is so much "make-up sex in tumultuous dating relationships?

Ditto with other passive aggressive weapons...hard to notice the full impact that your girlfriend 'isn't talking to you" if aren't seeing her 24/7.

When a passive aggressive partner 'wins' by using sex withdrawn, the bio-feedback loop is fed and you will get more and more of that, until they don't always remember why it is they arent "giving it up to that son of a bitch" but they sure arent.

Its slightly safer to use the women denied above as examples, but their husbands are being childish. And like children...when you don't set boundaries, you don't get the behaviors desired and the child even in "winning' is clearly losing out on all of the same relationship--strengthening, life affirming intimacies.

I realize there ARE legitimate examples of mis-matched libidos...I have heard it said that they NEVER match...that when they appear to do so, one partner is (lovingly) accommodating the "oversexed' one. Or one is simply doing without from time to time but by paying attention to the rhythms of their partners desire getting "enough" to feel fulfilled. Whats wrong with that?

But in these cases we are talking NONE! It isn't "He won't pull my hair!", or "She won't swallow!" it is one partner DECIDING unilaterally to remove arguably one of the most important parts of the marriage contract. And yes, Virginia it IS a contract.

This isn't OK. It isn't healthy (for either), and it spells the death knell of a relationship.

Love (and sex) cannot be conditional. I love you if you do/ don't do x...I'll put out if y.

The best way to get your wife in the mood is to do the sorts of things that you would do to be attracted to her if you didn't already live with her if you didn't already know her. Men forget that. They think a campaign of appeasement is going to suddenly result in her rewarding you with sex.

When in the dating world does a guy who appeases a woman...does whatever she wants, get laid? It is absolute science not to mention I don't think anybody cannot name in their immediate circle of friends such examples: women go for bad boys... there's something primal there. Doesn't mean you need to be an asshole (but I find it helps) but it does mean you need to stroke those primal fires.

If its been going on for YEARS...it will take a year or two to get unstuck but it can be done.

If it is just starting the right answer is, "Honey I love you and I am planning on spending the rest of my life with you. I am concerned by our lack of intimacy*. I am worried that we will drift farther apart if we don't engage in those affirming, nurturing activities often. I love having sex with you...(insert example of great hot monkey sex in the past) that was great I want US to be like that again. I am not OK with a loveless marriage.

Marriage counselors consider no more than TEN sessions per year a sexless marriage. They don't last and children as pointed out above see an example of room-mates, not mates. HOW do you think they will know what to do when loving intimacy is not modeled for them?

BOLD WARNING...if you are having sex at a rate of barely monthly- consider where that is heading.
I am sure many of these posters would LOVE to START from there. Its sort of all in or nothing. We were close to those numbers at year 16. At year 17 LONG story but we got honest, we got specific, we got healthy physically and we were up to multiple sessions A DAY. Sadly it was a swan song, but GREAT and affirming while it lasted. I think years maybe 3-16 built up too much detrius to be able to make the change stick. I'll do better in my next life.


The great news about the course of action I've been advocating(that no one seems to want to try), is that it does no harm. Actively think about seducing your spouse. Ever been friendzoned? I EXCEL at placing myself irretrievably there. Women (yes all of them) decide pretty quickly if you are fuckable or not. If their initial judgement is a no go, all the chocolates and flowers in the world will not win her over. Politely and cheerfully withdrawing to fight another day, as you look at your options MIGHT give her a chance to see you in a better light. I find that a girl that thinks I make a great 'friend' suddenly decides that I am a "maybe" if she sees me engaging well with someone else who is similarly attractive. (small town I get lots of practice)

Don't be bitter, don't be conniving but get out there and flirt. It costs NOTHING. You don't have to be looking for a replacement. But the confidence that it will build in you is both good and healthy for you and it WILL result in your spouse noticing your more confident air, and that is sexy. Sexy enough?...WHo knows?...but it is great practice...for life, for flirting with your spouse, for work, for your future with out mr/mrs sourpuss if it doesnt work.

lose 5 lbs...try a new perfume or cologne...pick up a jaunty wardrobe piece..(this I got carried away with, I just packed SIX wardrobe boxes...for ME).

Guys, wax the car...buy a red one next time.....girls, raise that hemline one inch, and grow out your hair 3 inches.

Pretend you are ALIVE and growing DESPITE Mr/Mrs passive aggressive. Imagine what you do in the way of self-improvement to "get the chicks' or "Get tall dark and handsome" to buy you a drink and do that.

study after study like new dads see a drop in testosterone and the like show that we as men ARENT as sexy after they "catch us", and women love to chop their hair off after they get married....do what you would do to BE attractive generally, that means stereotypically "manly" things for the guys and "girly" things for the girls.

People like having a partner that shines in public. It validates (incorrectly, but go with it) them. BE the partner that other people want. (I realize some of you ARE...keep that up, go you) because eventually if it doesn't change for the better it will get worse. And you need to be ready to be someone else's partner. I wasn't

No.

Males cooperate, females conform to consensus.

If you observe female management of a novel crisis what you see is a group of women form a committee and attempt to negotiate (placate) a resolution of the problem unless the problem involves another group of women, then it becomes a rigid confrontation.

That is, females wont color outside the lines until a decision is made by committee. Males do it differently: A male makes a decision and other males cooperate if the decision maker has status for competence, skill, and results.

No one in his right mind makes a Patton head of the army in peace-time. No one in her right mind makes a female a battle commander in war.

devinity7 said:

Perhaps at times we need to remember sex is more than an act, more than an orgasm and intimacy doesn't always need to involve intercourse. Do you hold hands, kiss more than just on the cheek, slap each other in the ass, shower together, rub her feet, rub his back???? I'm sure I could go on and on.

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This is an excellent point. When my wife and I are mentoring engaged couples, one of the questions we ask (which I can't take credit for) is "Can you think of a reason why a couple might choose to make love but not to have intercourse?" I can think of only one couple who didn't give us a blank stare. Making love is about those little things that build, maintain, and reap the rewards of intimacy.

The problem is, all this lack of intimacy breeds further lack of intimacy for generations to come. Our kids don't see the touching or loving things that are missing....What will their marriages bring?

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This is another excellent point. In prior generations intimacy expressed outside of private moments wasn't really encouraged or tolerated. Perhaps that was prudish-ness, or just a desire to keep intimacy just between a couple. I can't say, but it seems like we don't have to look back even past the previous generation to see it. What I can say is that I never saw my parents expressing much in the way of affection. I can remember only one time when I saw them kissing on the couch. These are people who love each other with an incredible passion, but didn't express it physically in front of us.

Eilan said:

You and your wife owe it to your children to model healthy relationships.

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Another excellent point. If I may tie these two threads of thought together, I think that my parents modeled a healthy relationship in terms of finances, joint decision making, and respect for each other. However, they didn't provide us kids with any idea of what a healthy intimate relationship looks like. I never saw them express affection, and they never talked to us about sex, even in the context of "sex is for someone you love". They never had arguments in front of us either, which turned out to be a problem in my marriage because I didn't know how to resolve conflicts in marriage.

I had to make a conscious decision and effort to show my kids what a healthy relationship looks like (in our opinion) in terms of expressions of love. My wife comes from a family where "PDAs" were frowned upon, and I've had to coax her into everything from holding hands to kissing in front of the kids. We don't clean each other's tonsils or anything, but it's not uncommon to hold hands walking through the store or kiss each other hello and goodbye, or for no reason. She has long since come over to my way of thinking, but it was something we had to make an effort to do.

Another couple once told us that my daughter confided that it was "gross that my parents are always touching each other", but in the same conversation told them that we have an awesome marriage. The better half of that couple told us that they want to be friends with us because of our daughter's admiration of us, something they haven't seen from other teenagers.

I don't say this to blow our own horn, although I am proud of my marriage, but to connect and affirm what Devinity and Eilan said. Kids pick up on healthy marriages. They pay attention to how we treat each other. They take those lessons into their own relationships, although that's certainly no guarantee of success. Both of my brothers are divorced.

Edited to add that even a bad marriage can be a model for kids. If spouses can treat each other with dignity and respect it shows children that sometimes there are more important things than "me". Sometimes we make sacrifices because we have obligations and commitments that take priority. Obviously that depends on being able to treat each other in a way that sets a positive example for children. Keeping a bitterly dysfunction marriage together "for the sake of the kids" is a different matter.

I am happy to see some healthy discussion in this thread, although I apologize to the OP that her thread seems to have taken something of a turn away from her original topic.

sunandshadow said:

Well, when you are only interested in the opposite sex, and you aren't getting any sex from them because they apparently aren't interested with you, it's difficult not to be bitter.

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I'm sure it is difficult to not start to harbor bad feelings. Quite natural to do so, actually.

I was reading ohwhynot's post, it's ridiculous to bargain for sex, unless it's done playfully. Yet, if you are going to put conditions on having sex, that takes all the fun and intimacy out of it and then it's not even fulfilling anymore.

I've never gone to counseling, but I am surprised that it hasn't been mentioned. I've heard pros and cons, but I think we can all agree that communication is key. The difficult part is getting people to open up and be completely honest about the problem and usually that is only the beginning. Sometimes many layers need to be exposed before the true underlying issues are revealed.

I've mentioned before that I rarely deny my spouse sex. I can almost guarantee that if her were asked, he'd say he has a great sex life. Thing is, he'd be 100% wrong. For one to have a great sex life, I would assume BOTH partners need to feel that way. I don't think our sex life is anywhere close to being great. Do we have sex? Yes and very often, but I can say I'm not fulfilled.

That is probably my fault for not communicating my needs and desires. Thing is, I don't want to for I'm happy to have the whole nonsense done and over with in less than 2 minutes. I have no desire to have him try to kiss me, pleasure me or get me to orgasm. That connection is gone.

How do you tell someone they don't rock your world? That you despise kissing them and all the years of non-sexual related BS has taken it's toll. What if you can't even fathom that ever coming back? You can see that perhaps you could remain living together, but you know this person will never satisfy you. And it's not because they don't have the kink or imagination you have, it's because you've stopped finding them desirable. The mind is a powerful thing, as well as fear, you need to use your mind to conquer your fears so that you can start progressing and finding ways to have healthy relationships.

Now if I could only learn how to take that advice.

JAMESBJOHNSON said:

No.

Males cooperate, females conform to consensus.

If you observe female management of a novel crisis what you see is a group of women form a committee and attempt to negotiate (placate) a resolution of the problem unless the problem involves another group of women, then it becomes a rigid confrontation.

That is, females wont color outside the lines until a decision is made by committee. Males do it differently: A male makes a decision and other males cooperate if the decision maker has status for competence, skill, and results.

No one in his right mind makes a Patton head of the army in peace-time. No one in her right mind makes a female a battle commander in war.

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In your world, I am a man.

HussarVanburen said:

1. Man up and make your wife give you what's yours by right.

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Yeah, Marital Rape is going to fix the no-sex problem really well, amirite guise?

Raping your wife sounds like a splendid way to fix her reluctance to sleep with you! YOU WIN THE INTERNET!! YOU'RE BRILLIANT!!

Rainshine said:

I think he wins more than the internet. I think he wins life!

What decade are we living in here?

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1813, apparently. My eyeroll muscles cramped. OW.

ETA: I can't believe this thread got to FOUR PAGES before someone mentioned the "raping your wife" thing. I mean, For Fuck's Sake, is that just not a big deal to people for some reason? Rape is KIND OF BAD, YO.

satindesire said:

ETA: I can't believe this thread got to FOUR PAGES before someone mentioned the "raping your wife" thing. I mean, For Fuck's Sake, is that just not a big deal to people for some reason? Rape is KIND OF BAD, YO.

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Now you've gone and fed the troll.

Eilan said:

I lost interest in sex when I was married to my ex. It wasn't that I didn't want to have sex--I just didn't want to have sex with him, and out-of-the bedroom issues had a lot to do with it. Haven't had this issue with my husband, and we've been married for 11 years now.I grew up with parents who should have divorced 17 years before they did, but they decided to "stay together for the sake of the children." Sorry, but that's bullshit--and abusive.

You and your wife owe it to your children to model healthy relationships. Guaran-fucking-teed that your children know what's up--they're not stupid. I knew when I was three years old that my parents' relationship was not "right."

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My parents divorced before I turned three so I don't remember a time when they were married. I grew up moving from family member to family member while mom and dad tried to find suitable partners. My father even shipped me off to his parents because he had a suicidal girl friend. My relationship was so bad with the girlfriend that when ever he was out of town, which was quite frequent because my father was a pilot, she would stay with her sister leaving me by myself on weekends at the age of eight. I never said anything because quite frankly I was happier when she wasn't around.
When I was older and went to live with my mother my step father treated me well but his parents subtly reminded me that I wasn't blood so my value in their family wasn't held as high as it was for their blood grandchildren. I was constantly reminded that something 'wasn't right'. I never said that staying in this marriage was a great solution, it's just the best solution from a list of bad ones. Like I said, outside of the bedroom my marriage is great. I liken it to having an awesome roommate. If we were verbally or physically abusive to each other than yes I would end the marriage because that would be an unhealthy environment for my children. I'm not even arguing that people in similar situations remain in their marriages. But for ME it is the best solution to an unfortunate marriage. When I finally understood my wife's nature I had to decide if I could put my bitterness and anger aside to provide for a stable environment for my kids. I could have walked around pissed at the world and played the 'poor me' game but I decided that once I had made the decision to stay then I could no longer get upset over the way my wife is because I had decided to accept it until such time as my kids were out of school.
I experienced growing up in a broken home and I chose not to let my kids have that same experience. Now of course there is no guarantee that my kids would have it as bad, or near as bad as I did but I have chosen not to take that risk. You divorced and were blessed to enter into a better relationship and I am genuinely happy for you. So while you may find it abusive not to divorce I would find it abusive to divorce and expose my kids to the pain and suffering of a broken home when the only part of my marriage that is dysfunctional is what happens or I should say doesn't happen in my bedroom. And that part of my marriage does not concern them.

satindesire said:

ETA: I can't believe this thread got to FOUR PAGES before someone mentioned the "raping your wife" thing. I mean, For Fuck's Sake, is that just not a big deal to people for some reason? Rape is KIND OF BAD, YO.

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He's fully aware that he's a throwback to a caveman and he doesn't give a shit. Save your breath, Satin. Trying to enlighten him would be an exercise in futility.

bailadora said:

He's fully aware that he's a throwback to a caveman and he doesn't give a shit. Save your breath, Satin. Trying to enlighten him would be an exercise in futility.

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Trolls don't say vile things out of ignorance, they say them deliberately. They don't actually need to be enlightened in the sense of helping them to understand why they're wrong.

A lot of guys online masturbate to porn. Some masturbate to the idea that they've gotten people angry.