When does it stop being Dom/Sub and become abuse?

[mrb09]

Hello,

I have concerns for a friend.
She has in the last couple of months got into a new relationship, which is bdsm orientated without safewords, that is it is a lifestyle for her and not just the sexual side of it.

During this relationship he has instructed her she is not allowed to speak to certain friends, that if they call her she is to hang up immediately (myself being one of these friends).
However she called me this week to say she missed me and wanted to be friends again but was afraid what he would do if he knew she had spoken to me.
She suggested speaking and meeting in secret, which i advised her against.
She then invited me to come see her the following night.

That afternoon i received a message to say that he had left her, as she had told him she had spoken to me, and wanted to be friends with me. His words were "you wouldnt do this if you loved me".

I tried to pick her up, give her a little lift, then went round that night with some pizza and tried to be supportive as best i could without bad mouthing him.

While i was there, he called her, which she allowed me to listen in on, during this call he said such things as "i cant believe what you are doing to me", "i cant bare you not being submissive to me" and "i cant stand the thought of you being alone with another man".
He quickly rescinded breaking up with her, he said "i couldnt leave you no matter what you did".

After the call i spoke to her, and as i could see she was upset about losing him, that she loved him, i talked her into giving him another chance, to call him, tell him what her issues were and what she needed from him.
When i got home she messaged me to say that he wanted to speak to me, that i had to reassure him that i wasnt a danger to her (his way of justifying telling her she couldnt speak to me, because i had been angry with her about becoming a crappy friend since meeting him, doing things she normally wouldnt, and would normally have hated other people for doing).
But also i had to want to be friends with him as well, as i couldnt be her friend, and not his, as they were going to move in together soon, and when that happened she wouldnt be seeing any of her friends without him being there.

Am i right to be worried about his behaviour?

 

[twister947]

You already know the answer...

 

[subwannabe]

Wish I could word it better than twister but I don't know if I can. The answer to your question is yes, this is abuse. Some asshole dickheads think that they can disguise their abuse by calling it a dom/sub relationship. Your friend needs to run away as fast as she can and turn the tables on him by not talking to HIM anymore and never seeing him again, talking, texting, or whatever, EVER. He is trying to control her through mental abuse, kind of similar to a guy saying he is going to kill himself if his woman leaves him. Also, you need to stay out of his mind games and not talk to him yourself. That's just playing the game by his rules instead of yours, exactly what he wants. This guy sounds dangerous. Your friend is either naive about "love" or she is very insecure about herself and he is taking advantage of this. You need to do the best you can to talk your friend into severing all communication with this abuser and find someone else. There are real Doms out there who are not abusers. The deeper she gets in the more dangerous he will become, making it harder and harder for her to get out. In the end it is her choice and if she chooses him then you have to find a way to let go of her yourself so you don't dragged down along with her. Whatever happens to her happens to her and if she does choose him then you shouldn't let yourself get in the middle again. At some point if he suspects your are a "bad" influence on her he will want to eliminate you in some fashion. Don't turn your back on him and don't underestimate how far he will go to get his way.

 

[desertslave]

I've always considered the request/requirement of cutting someone's friends off to be a huge red flag. Unless there has been a demonstrable negative effect in that existing relationship. I've a friend who chooses friends poorly at times, and who has been manipulated and harmed as a result. If she were in a D/s relationship and her Sir helped her to winnow some of her un-helpful friends, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

In other words, it could be a problem, but it's very subjective.

 

[mrb09]

I've always considered the request/requirement of cutting someone's friends off to be a huge red flag. Unless there has been a demonstrable negative effect in that existing relationship. I've a friend who chooses friends poorly at times, and who has been manipulated and harmed as a result. If she were in a D/s relationship and her Sir helped her to winnow some of her un-helpful friends, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

In other words, it could be a problem, but it's very subjective.

Desertslave.. she considers me her best friend, her only real friend, that is always there for her when she needs anything.
Yes we do have arguments occasionally, which are upsetting for us both, but the majority of the time we are closer than brother and sister and would do anything for each other.
The argument that she and i had which led to him saying i was "dangerous" and "bad for her", was over her becoming a crappy friend since meeting him.
Including going against one of her biggest principles in cancelling plans with me because he asked her to see him instead. Something she always swore she would never do, and resents some of her other friends for doing on her years ago.
When that was brought up in front of him, he said he "would expect her to cancel plans with others to see him"

 

[Collar_N_Cuffs]

This sounds like a truly horrible situation. I hesitate to call it abuse, more like "fucked up person syndrome". The guy sounds like he has some serious problems, which are spilling over as problems into your friend's life. When this happens, best to extricate oneself as quickly as possible.

The nature of good humans is to try and help the messed up ones, and that is fine as long as it can be done from a position of strength. In that relationship, she would not be in a position of strength to help him. She is in definite danger of a fucked up life, or worse.

 

[Collar_N_Cuffs]

Desertslave.. she considers me her best friend, her only real friend, that is always there for her when she needs anything.
Yes we do have arguments occasionally, which are upsetting for us both, but the majority of the time we are closer than brother and sister and would do anything for each other.
The argument that she and i had which led to him saying i was "dangerous" and "bad for her", was over her becoming a crappy friend since meeting him.
Including going against one of her biggest principles in cancelling plans with me because he asked her to see him instead. Something she always swore she would never do, and resents some of her other friends for doing on her years ago.
When that was brought up in front of him, he said he "would expect her to cancel plans with others to see him"

This also sounds a bit messed up. Yes, you may be friends, but her life is her own, and to me you sound a bit controlling as well. Have you honestly considered your own feelings for her? Maybe you and the other guy are... somewhat equal, and she is torn in the middle. Just playing devil's advocate because, as ds says, this stuff is always hard to read.

 

[mrb09]

This also sounds a bit messed up. Yes, you may be friends, but her life is her own, and to me you sound a bit controlling as well. Have you honestly considered your own feelings for her? Maybe you and the other guy are... somewhat equal, and she is torn in the middle. Just playing devil's advocate because, as ds says, this stuff is always hard to read.

To give you some background she and i had a brief relationship which ended 7 months ago.
We became closer and spent more time since as friends.
My feelings for her did last a while after the break up, but i know they are gone now.
I love her to bits, but as a friend or like family, i wouldnt be interested in a relationship with her.

And yes i know i over reacted with her and apoligised for it, which she accepted.
She said i had a right to be angry, that if i had done it to her she would have been too.

 

[SpunThings]

Hello,

I have concerns for a friend.
She has in the last couple of months got into a new relationship, which is bdsm orientated without safewords, that is it is a lifestyle for her and not just the sexual side of it.

During this relationship he has instructed her she is not allowed to speak to certain friends, that if they call her she is to hang up immediately (myself being one of these friends).
However she called me this week to say she missed me and wanted to be friends again but was afraid what he would do if he knew she had spoken to me.
She suggested speaking and meeting in secret, which i advised her against.
She then invited me to come see her the following night.

That afternoon i received a message to say that he had left her, as she had told him she had spoken to me, and wanted to be friends with me. His words were "you wouldnt do this if you loved me".

I tried to pick her up, give her a little lift, then went round that night with some pizza and tried to be supportive as best i could without bad mouthing him.

While i was there, he called her, which she allowed me to listen in on, during this call he said such things as "i cant believe what you are doing to me", "i cant bare you not being submissive to me" and "i cant stand the thought of you being alone with another man".
He quickly rescinded breaking up with her, he said "i couldnt leave you no matter what you did".

After the call i spoke to her, and as i could see she was upset about losing him, that she loved him, i talked her into giving him another chance, to call him, tell him what her issues were and what she needed from him.
When i got home she messaged me to say that he wanted to speak to me, that i had to reassure him that i wasnt a danger to her (his way of justifying telling her she couldnt speak to me, because i had been angry with her about becoming a crappy friend since meeting him, doing things she normally wouldnt, and would normally have hated other people for doing).
But also i had to want to be friends with him as well, as i couldnt be her friend, and not his, as they were going to move in together soon, and when that happened she wouldnt be seeing any of her friends without him being there.

Am i right to be worried about his behaviour?

What you describe to me does not necessarily sound like abuse. It sounds like a manipulative possibly emotionally immature partner. It COULD be abuse, but I don't see abuse in your description. Not all crappy partners are abusive.

Whether WE think it's abuse or not though, doesn't really matter. If you really believe it is, how are you going to convince her? People don't generally respond well to negative talk about their significant others.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Hello,

I have concerns for a friend.
She has in the last couple of months got into a new relationship, which is bdsm orientated without safewords, that is it is a lifestyle for her and not just the sexual side of it.

During this relationship he has instructed her she is not allowed to speak to certain friends, that if they call her she is to hang up immediately (myself being one of these friends).
However she called me this week to say she missed me and wanted to be friends again but was afraid what he would do if he knew she had spoken to me.
She suggested speaking and meeting in secret, which i advised her against.
She then invited me to come see her the following night.

That afternoon i received a message to say that he had left her, as she had told him she had spoken to me, and wanted to be friends with me. His words were "you wouldnt do this if you loved me".

I tried to pick her up, give her a little lift, then went round that night with some pizza and tried to be supportive as best i could without bad mouthing him.

While i was there, he called her, which she allowed me to listen in on, during this call he said such things as "i cant believe what you are doing to me", "i cant bare you not being submissive to me" and "i cant stand the thought of you being alone with another man".
He quickly rescinded breaking up with her, he said "i couldnt leave you no matter what you did".

After the call i spoke to her, and as i could see she was upset about losing him, that she loved him, i talked her into giving him another chance, to call him, tell him what her issues were and what she needed from him.
When i got home she messaged me to say that he wanted to speak to me, that i had to reassure him that i wasnt a danger to her (his way of justifying telling her she couldnt speak to me, because i had been angry with her about becoming a crappy friend since meeting him, doing things she normally wouldnt, and would normally have hated other people for doing).
But also i had to want to be friends with him as well, as i couldnt be her friend, and not his, as they were going to move in together soon, and when that happened she wouldnt be seeing any of her friends without him being there.

Am i right to be worried about his behaviour?

I went through something similar recently with somebody dear to me. (I guess we're still going through it, but we've made some progress.) Not quite as severe as your situation, but certainly a lot of the same issues.

It sounds like you're trying to deal with two things at once here: (a) you're trying to assess whether one of your friends is in a bad situation, but (b) you're also trying to deal with a friend who is doing things you find hurtful. Which may be pressure from him, it may just represent a change in her priorities, it may be some mix of the two.

But whatever the cause, (b) is going to be distressing for you, and in my experience that makes it a lot harder to gauge (a). It's sometimes hard to see clearly enough to distinguish between "their relationship is abusive because what he's asking of her is unreasonable" and "I resent their relationship because she put him ahead of me".

From what you've said, abuse certainly sounds plausible*. But that conflict of interest means you may not be in an ideal position to help her. If I were an abuser in that situation, I'd be telling her "he's just jealous because you had a relationship and he still has a thing for you".

As they say, "apply your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others". If it were me: step 1 would be to articulate that you're upset about the way she's been handling this - cancelling on you, etc - and to say that you need clear expectations about how this is going to be handled in future. If she has decided of her own free will that she's prepared to cancel commitments to you at his whim, then she has the right to make that choice - but she needs to be honest with you that this IS her choice, in the understanding that you also have the right to walk away from a friendship that doesn't meet your standards. On the other hand, if she wants to keep those commitments but feels afraid to do so, then that's a strong sign of abuse.

Step 2 might be saying something along these lines: "I have major concerns about your relationship with X. I feel he's trying to cut you off from your friends. But I have a conflict of interest in this situation - I don't like him and I know things would be easier for me if he wasn't around. Do you have any friends or family you could talk to for a neutral opinion about this situation?"

*If we weren't talking in a 24/7 BDSM context I'd say "hell yes, this is abusive" without a second thought. But some people do get off on being heavily controlled, even if it means making sacrifices elsewhere.

 

[mrb09]

I went through something similar recently with somebody dear to me. (I guess we're still going through it, but we've made some progress.) Not quite as severe as your situation, but certainly a lot of the same issues.

It sounds like you're trying to deal with two things at once here: (a) you're trying to assess whether one of your friends is in a bad situation, but (b) you're also trying to deal with a friend who is doing things you find hurtful. Which may be pressure from him, it may just represent a change in her priorities, it may be some mix of the two.

But whatever the cause, (b) is going to be distressing for you, and in my experience that makes it a lot harder to gauge (a). It's sometimes hard to see clearly enough to distinguish between "their relationship is abusive because what he's asking of her is unreasonable" and "I resent their relationship because she put him ahead of me".

From what you've said, abuse certainly sounds plausible*. But that conflict of interest means you may not be in an ideal position to help her. If I were an abuser in that situation, I'd be telling her "he's just jealous because you had a relationship and he still has a thing for you".

As they say, "apply your own oxygen mask before attempting to help others". If it were me: step 1 would be to articulate that you're upset about the way she's been handling this - cancelling on you, etc - and to say that you need clear expectations about how this is going to be handled in future. If she has decided of her own free will that she's prepared to cancel commitments to you at his whim, then she has the right to make that choice - but she needs to be honest with you that this IS her choice, in the understanding that you also have the right to walk away from a friendship that doesn't meet your standards. On the other hand, if she wants to keep those commitments but feels afraid to do so, then that's a strong sign of abuse.

Step 2 might be saying something along these lines: "I have major concerns about your relationship with X. I feel he's trying to cut you off from your friends. But I have a conflict of interest in this situation - I don't like him and I know things would be easier for me if he wasn't around. Do you have any friends or family you could talk to for a neutral opinion about this situation?"

*If we weren't talking in a 24/7 BDSM context I'd say "hell yes, this is abusive" without a second thought. But some people do get off on being heavily controlled, even if it means making sacrifices elsewhere.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head here, and it is why i asked the question, my doubt was i was allowing my own issues to negatively affect how i saw their relationship.
He has used me being angry about how she acted as a friend to make out that im a jealous ex that just wants her back, and claim i would physically harm her.
She herself knows that it isnt true and has said as much to both me and him.
He doesnt seem interested in what she wants and her feelings, he claims he is doing what is best for her, but surely if she has made it clear that she wants me around as her friend he must consider that?

I have tried giving him the benefit of the doubt, but the more time goes on, the more i hear, the more i worry.
For example she messaged me on skype last night to say hi, then deleted it before i could reply, i said hi back, and left it up to her if she wanted to talk, she then blocked me this afternoon.

She wants me in her life but is afraid of what he will do/terrified to lose him.

Earlier this week when she contacted me she told me she could only talk to me in secret as she was afraid, even when she did then tell him that we had spoke and she wanted to be friends with me again, to see me, she was too afraid to tell him she made first contact, she told him i called her.

 

[mrb09]

What you describe to me does not necessarily sound like abuse. It sounds like a manipulative possibly emotionally immature partner. It COULD be abuse, but I don't see abuse in your description. Not all crappy partners are abusive.

Whether WE think it's abuse or not though, doesn't really matter. If you really believe it is, how are you going to convince her? People don't generally respond well to negative talk about their significant others.

Spunthings - i guess i can`t convince her, the more i try the more she will push me away and defend him.
What i have done is assured her that i will support her no matter what happens, that even if she allows this order of his not to speak to me, that if she ever needs anything all she has to do is call.
I havent tried to make first contact with her since, but will respond if she does.

That was the best advice i could get from various abuse websites/charities

 

[SpunThings]

Spunthings - i guess i can`t convince her, the more i try the more she will push me away and defend him.
What i have done is assured her that i will support her no matter what happens, that even if she allows this order of his not to speak to me, that if she ever needs anything all she has to do is call.
I havent tried to make first contact with her since, but will respond if she does.

That was the best advice i could get from various abuse websites/charities

That's probably the best thing you can do. It sucks to see people we care about doing things we think are hurting them.

 

[SubmissiveMom]

It stops when the 'Safe Word' is spoken or whispered x x x

 

[SubmissiveMom]

The 'Safe Word' is the most important thing in any BDSM relationship or activity x To be engaged as the Sub in any sexual environment without a 'Safe word' or when the 'safe word' is ignored when uttered or shouted is when it becomes Abuse x x x

 

[Ubernaught]

The 'Safe Word' is the most important thing in any BDSM relationship or activity x To be engaged as the Sub in any sexual environment without a 'Safe word' or when the 'safe word' is ignored when uttered or shouted is when it becomes Abuse x x x

Exactly. If there is no mechanism by which the sub can express non-consent and still remain in the relationship, it becomes more slavery than submission.

 

[Moonlit]

What you describe to me does not necessarily sound like abuse. It sounds like a manipulative possibly emotionally immature partner. It COULD be abuse, but I don't see abuse in your description. Not all crappy partners are abusive.

Whether WE think it's abuse or not though, doesn't really matter. If you really believe it is, how are you going to convince her? People don't generally respond well to negative talk about their significant others.

I agree with what SpunThings said. It is not necessarily abuse and does sound like a manipulative partner.

If my Significant Other told me to stop talking to one or more friends, I'd be darn sure to find out why and if his reasoning didn't convince me, I'd tell him so. I am highly unlikely to give up a friend for a partner.

 

[subwannabe]

In many of these types of cases it is not a case of giving up a friend for a partner. It is a case of the abuser wanting you to give up ALL of your friends and often family too. They don't want anyone left standing who might be able to talk their victim into running like hell. No safewords allowed equals abuse.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The real bottom line is: Is it fun? If not, move on. All the navel gazing is wasted brain cells, and putting your nose in others business usually doesn't work out.

 

[MrRandyWatson]

The situation is abuse veiled as Dom/sub. That's pretty obvious.

That said, people will call consensual Dom/sub situations abuse when they are not. I saw Fifty Shades of Grey, for example. People called Christian Grey an abuser. Never mind that Anastasia expressly agreed to everything Christian did, she ignored his rules regularly, and when he pushed her too far (when she EXPRESSLY ASKED him to do so,) she left. And he took it like a man. Christian Grey was not an abuser. A cold, calculating asshole? Sure. But not an abuser.

If your friend were as free to leave - or free to push the rules - as Anastasia Steele was, she would not be in an abusive relationship. A good sub understands the rules and is free to push them. Your friend evidently is not.

 

[Primalex]

As far as I can tell, it comes down to the guy saying:"Do this or I leave you."
and the girl saying:"No, please, don't leave me." and when she lied to him, he doesn't leave her or beat the shit out of her but instead says:"Okay, I bluffed, I'm not leaving you."

In my world this is not abuse and I have trouble to determine who of you three is more fucked up.

*shrugs*

 

[subwannabe]

I have to agree it would be hard to determine which of the three is more fucked up. It might be a dead heat.

 

[Tech_Director]

If what you're saying is accurate.

Hello,

I have concerns for a friend.
She has in the last couple of months got into a new relationship, which is bdsm orientated without safewords, that is it is a lifestyle for her and not just the sexual side of it.

During this relationship he has instructed her she is not allowed to speak to certain friends, that if they call her she is to hang up immediately (myself being one of these friends).
However she called me this week to say she missed me and wanted to be friends again but was afraid what he would do if he knew she had spoken to me.
She suggested speaking and meeting in secret, which i advised her against.
She then invited me to come see her the following night.

That afternoon i received a message to say that he had left her, as she had told him she had spoken to me, and wanted to be friends with me. His words were "you wouldnt do this if you loved me".

I tried to pick her up, give her a little lift, then went round that night with some pizza and tried to be supportive as best i could without bad mouthing him.

While i was there, he called her, which she allowed me to listen in on, during this call he said such things as "i cant believe what you are doing to me", "i cant bare you not being submissive to me" and "i cant stand the thought of you being alone with another man".
He quickly rescinded breaking up with her, he said "i couldnt leave you no matter what you did".

After the call i spoke to her, and as i could see she was upset about losing him, that she loved him, i talked her into giving him another chance, to call him, tell him what her issues were and what she needed from him.
When i got home she messaged me to say that he wanted to speak to me, that i had to reassure him that i wasnt a danger to her (his way of justifying telling her she couldnt speak to me, because i had been angry with her about becoming a crappy friend since meeting him, doing things she normally wouldnt, and would normally have hated other people for doing).
But also i had to want to be friends with him as well, as i couldnt be her friend, and not his, as they were going to move in together soon, and when that happened she wouldnt be seeing any of her friends without him being there.

Am i right to be worried about his behaviour?

There are all kinds of red flags here. There is a difference between being Dominant and Domineering. He sounds like the latter.

 

[Bramblethorn]

The situation is abuse veiled as Dom/sub. That's pretty obvious.

That said, people will call consensual Dom/sub situations abuse when they are not. I saw Fifty Shades of Grey, for example. People called Christian Grey an abuser. Never mind that Anastasia expressly agreed to everything Christian did, she ignored his rules regularly, and when he pushed her too far (when she EXPRESSLY ASKED him to do so,) she left. And he took it like a man. Christian Grey was not an abuser. A cold, calculating asshole? Sure. But not an abuser.

I understand they toned down some of his behaviour for the film, but from the commentary I've seen book!Christian is most certainly an abuser.

 

[submissannie]

Simple

When the person feels like they are being abused it is.