Yet another ratings thread... or is it?

[AwkwardlySet]

1.​

I assume many of you know I've been a target of story bombing for some time now. I also assume most of you know whom I accused of being behind it. Initially, I intended to make a very long post, to provide some evidence and detailed reasoning but ultimately I decided to make it much shorter as that person doesn't really have any notable presence here and frankly, I can't be bothered. So here is a short list. Firstly, the timing of the bombing itself is quite glaring. Also, the persistence of it shows there is an actual grudge rather than just some discontent with some of my stories (It has been going on for more than two weeks, with Laurel doing the sweeps almost every day.) I have screenshots of that person ( named Stacnash for those of you who aren't following all this) practically mocking me in one thread, making jokes at how I am not a Hall of Famer any longer, how if I would apologize to her the bombing would probably stop and how she hopes whoever is behind it keeps on doing it.

Now, when Laurel confirmed to me that I am not the only target of this campaign, on a hunch, I decided to track a story from a different author (no more names as I don't want any of them pulled into all of this), an extremely highly rated story that was also publicly criticized by this same person who rated it quite low, and claimed that the story doesn't deserve its high rating. I waited for the moment when the bombing started on my stories and bingo! When the category pages refreshed I saw that story (and only that story!) tumble down the Top List in a certain category. The story would naturally go back to its extremely high ranking after the sweep. Also, I think I noticed some of the stories from the authors this person praised went up in ratings, presumably being 5* bombed, but you need to take this with more than a grain of salt as I haven't really paid proper attention to those stories in continuity and that might have been just a coincidence. Either way, I want to emphasize that I have absolutely no intention or even a thought towards implicating any of those authors. Absolutely no thought in that direction, just to make myself perfectly clear. I mention it merely because it fits this scenario of a person(s) who took it upon herself/themselves to rearrange story rankings according to their own opinions and tastes.

2.​

I also want to announce that I've decided to take down all of my stories. I have already initiated the procedure and I suppose it will take a couple of days. I've been struggling with motivation to write for months and this campaign really didn't help in that regard as every time I would log on to Lit I would get that small dose of negativity that would bear down on my already dangerously low motivation. If I was as motivated as I was in the early months I would probably shrug it off easily but now it simply precipitated something I had been thinking about for a while. The biggest reason for my low motivation by far is the lack of readers' feedback and I would like to use this opportunity to criticize all the readers out there for not understanding how important their input is to all of us. When I was just a reader, I must shamefully admit that I had no clue of the importance of commenting. The thought that some authors would care about my opinions and impressions of their stories never even crossed my mind Now I know.
The third reason is the fact that my early stories carry the burden of my writing being done in a non-native language. The mixing of tenses, the problematic use of pronouns in some places, and the switching from scene to scene that I thought could be done by pressing enter several times (some of those hard returns were removed in the process of publishing) instead of using some symbols to cut the scene, led to readers complaining about disconnects, and so on... When I became aware of it, I cringed every time I checked some of my early works.
So all in all, I want to be positive about all this. I want to use this lack of motivation and this bombing campaign and try to turn them into something good. I want to take some time and work on my old stuff and maybe reignite some of the passion in the process and hopefully write some new chapters, so when/if I decide to publish them again, it will be with corrected mistakes ( as far as I am able to do it ) but also with some new content and scenes in the old chapters and I hope to publish several new chapters as well. We will see. Maybe I will end up thanking this person for bombing me, after all

3.
​

As I said in the title, this thread is also about ratings. I've used the communication with Laurel to pitch an idea that would hopefully put a stop to these malicious bombing campaigns. I suggested implementing an option for an author to disable anonymous voting for their story. A similar thing already exists for comments even if we have the power to delete them. This way when you find yourself targeted by some internet troll, you can simply turn off anonymous voting for a time and thus force that troll to create a new email and a new account on Lit just to place one 1* on your story. I believe that the effort itself would make them drop their bad intentions very soon. Furthermore, it would allow Laurel and Manu to ban the accounts that are created for such purposes. What are your thoughts about this? It feels like such a simple solution. Not a perfect one by any means, but still quite a simple one, and one that gives authors some way to defend themselves from negative attention.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Hey sorry this is happening to you but I'm glad you're able to make an opportunity of it. Here's hoping I read some of your revised material soon.

 

[MillieDynamite]

You shouldn't take down your stories. The attack is by a petty individual, and all the harm will be removed on a sweep. I have no idea why anyone would do such a thing.

I was told I needed to favorite more stories and follow more writers from my account. It's a good way to get comments and hearts from other writers. I make it a habit to do my favoring from Jo's account here and not mine. I do much of my reading from her account. I'm not good at politicking, never have been, and I'm not going to start now. I'm hesitant to comment under my penname, but I do sometimes.

I hate bullies, they are fun to write about, but aren't fun to be around. Don't give in to the bullying just stand your ground.

 

[SimonDoom]

First of all, I'm sorry that this issue has caused the OP so much distress that he wants to remove his stories. I hope he reconsiders.

The OP and I have had many exchanges on this issue. That exchange generally has been cordial, and I respect his view, but I must disagree.

It's important, as a matter of basic fairness, that the scoring system for all authors must be the same. That principle is completely undone if some authors choose to disable anonymous voting and some don't. That's not workable. I WANT my stories to be subject to the voting of ALL readers, including anonymous ones, but my story scores will be at a possible disadvantage relative to the OP if he disables anonymous voting and I don't. This unfairness, as a matter of principle, is MORE important than the distress that he, or other authors, may feel over the negative voting or comments they receive. Their distress is no more important than my lack of distress.

In the OP's case, every single one of his stories has a red H. His overall average story score is significantly higher than mine. His views, comments, and favorites, overall, are just fine, especially considering the categories in which he publishes. Yet he is upset about anonymous voting. I don't get it. I truly do not get it. What is there to be upset about?

We know by now that the Site will not disable anonymous voting. There is 0% chance this will happen, because as the Site has made clear the majority of readers who respond to stories are anonymous, and the Site is not going to do something that creates an impediment to the majority of readers and their ability to respond to stories.

Readers matter more than authors. This is a cardinal principle that we must all accept whether we like it or not. It's crystal clear why this is so, and it's rational, from the Site's standpoint, why it is so. It's never going to change and there's nothing we can do about it. And, to be clear, I personally DON'T want the Site to do anything about it, and there are other authors who agree with me. I am strongly opposed to putting any obstacles in the way of anonymous readers from voting or commenting.

The answer, in my opinion, is to stop caring so much about scores. There simply is way too much angst on this issue in this forum. I've received my share of nasty anonymous (and non-anonymous) comments and votes. I have stories that have lower scores than I would expect or would hope for. I've had stories hanging just under that 4.5 threshold for months, or even years, and I've been waving my arms like Carlton Fisk in the World Series hoping that the score would get just over the line. And I just don't care. It doesn't in any way stop me from writing stories, doing what I like to do, and enjoying my experience here. My advice: stop caring so much about scores. Get your satisfaction from the process of writing and publication and knowing that you are finding an audience of readers, even if their reaction isn't always what you want it to be.

 

[Winter_Fare]

I mean if you think it will make you feel better by all means delete your stuff. Seriously you don't owe anything to anyone but yourself.

Personally I'm not sure it would make you feel better. There's something called cutting your nose to spite your face, you have fans and followers enough to outweigh the assholes if feedback is important to you.

Regarding stopping anonymous voting, I have to strongly disagree. It won't solve the problem. There are dedicated lowlifes that have a stack of sock puppet accounts ready and waiting to troll people, it's human nature, it's as old as the interwebs.

 

[MillieDynamite]

It's a tale as old as time, beauty and beast. Of course, I'm beauty. What does that make you?

I mean if you think it will make you feel better by all means delete your stuff. Seriously you don't owe anything to anyone but yourself.

Personally I'm not sure it would make you feel better. There's something called cutting your nose to spite your face, you have fans and followers enough to outweigh the assholes if feedback is important to you.

Regarding stopping anonymous voting, I have to strongly disagree. It won't solve the problem. There are dedicated lowlifes that have a stack of sock puppet accounts ready and waiting to troll people, it's human nature, it's as old as the interwebs.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

First of all, I'm sorry that this issue has caused the OP so much distress that he wants to remove his stories. I hope he reconsiders.

The OP and I have had many exchanges on this issue. That exchange generally has been cordial, and I respect his view, but I must disagree.

It's important, as a matter of basic fairness, that the scoring system for all authors must be the same. That principle is completely undone if some authors choose to disable anonymous voting and some don't. That's not workable. I WANT my stories to be subject to the voting of ALL readers, including anonymous ones, but my story scores will be at a possible disadvantage relative to the OP if he disables anonymous voting and I don't. This unfairness, as a matter of principle, is MORE important than the distress that he, or other authors, may feel over the negative voting or comments they receive. Their distress is no more important than my lack of distress.

In the OP's case, every single one of his stories has a red H. His overall average story score is significantly higher than mine. His views, comments, and favorites, overall, are just fine, especially considering the categories in which he publishes. Yet he is upset about anonymous voting. I don't get it. I truly do not get it. What is there to be upset about?

We know by now that the Site will not disable anonymous voting. There is 0% chance this will happen, because as the Site has made clear the majority of readers who respond to stories are anonymous, and the Site is not going to do something that creates an impediment to the majority of readers and their ability to respond to stories.

Readers matter more than authors. This is a cardinal principle that we must all accept whether we like it or not. It's crystal clear why this is so, and it's rational, from the Site's standpoint, why it is so. It's never going to change and there's nothing we can do about it. And, to be clear, I personally DON'T want the Site to do anything about it, and there are other authors who agree with me. I am strongly opposed to putting any obstacles in the way of anonymous readers from voting or commenting.

The answer, in my opinion, is to stop caring so much about scores. There simply is way too much angst on this issue in this forum. I've received my share of nasty anonymous (and non-anonymous) comments and votes. I have stories that have lower scores than I would expect or would hope for. I've had stories hanging just under that 4.5 threshold for months, or even years, and I've been waving my arms like Carlton Fisk in the World Series hoping that the score would get just over the line. And I just don't care. It doesn't in any way stop me from writing stories, doing what I like to do, and enjoying my experience here. My advice: stop caring so much about scores. Get your satisfaction from the process of writing and publication and knowing that you are finding an audience of readers, even if their reaction isn't always what you want it to be.

Simon, I respect the fact that your opinion is different from mine and I can say that some of your points seem reasonable to me too, but I feel I need to correct you on two accounts.
First, you keep saying The Site wants this and The Site wants that, The Site will never do this, and so on. Unless you are Laurel's alt I don't see how you can make such claims with that degree of confidence. I respect that it is the impression you have gotten over the years, but to project that much certainty about those things is over the top.
Second, you clearly haven't given my post enough attention as I have never said I was taking my stories down due to scores. I said it was due to other reasons mostly - low motivation, some early mistakes, and so on, while bombing lowering my scores is contributing only in the sense that it injects me with some negativity every time I see it because it projects maliciousness. Laurel has reverted my scores every time so there is no real loss there, nor am I fretting about it much as I have said many times what I think of scores. The temporary lowering of scores does hinder the visibility of my stories to a degree, but it is nothing major and nothing permanent, so that is not really it.

 

[Mastered_again]

The beginnings of thought police?

 

[MillieDynamite]

Have you met any of the police? How can you accuse most of them of thought?

The beginnings of thought police?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I mean if you think it will make you feel better by all means delete your stuff. Seriously you don't owe anything to anyone but yourself.

Thanks. It does feel like the right thing to do.

Regarding stopping anonymous voting, I have to strongly disagree. It won't solve the problem. There are dedicated lowlifes that have a stack of sock puppet accounts ready and waiting to troll people, it's human nature, it's as old as the interwebs.

I am just looking at it from the point of view of the effort required. With anonymous voting, I assume that votes are linked to IPs and by using proxy/VPN you can probably abuse the system and vote more than once. If you needed an account to vote then your vote on a specific story would be tied to your account so no amount of technical shenanigans would allow you to vote more than once, except if you made an effort to create a new email and then create a new account just so you can place one more vote. That was the whole idea behind my suggestion, to make the trolls invest much more effort into their bombings. Would it solve the problem? Nope. Would it reduce the problem? Yes, in my opinion

 

[MillieDynamite]

I would think that reoccurring votes in too short a time would send up a red flag, even with a VN. That would be true of anyone trying to down or upvote a story. I mean, they fall so friggin fast when they are downvoted.

 

[PrincessArianrhod]

Sorry to hear you're struggling with motivation. Don't let it spill over; it can make a hell of a mess to clear up later. Best to take whatever time you need and don't expect anything of yourself. I've had to remind myself a few times that it's the art I enjoy and while feedback etc is nice when it comes our way, it isn't the driving force; we are.

You'll find your mojo again, no doubt, it just needs a holiday.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Okay, I would be fine with an author having an option to ban anonymous voting on his/her stories. Hell there's already an option to ban anonymous comments, so why not?

That said, I personally wouldn't do it. I don't even feel that I get enough votes as it is, and silencing a whole (majority) portion of the site seems like a bad idea to me.

That said, I haven't been the target of any uno-bombing attacks, so perhaps if feel differently if that were the case.

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I would think that reoccurring votes in too short a time would send up a red flag, even with a VN. That would be true of anyone trying to down or upvote a story. I mean, they fall so friggin fast when they are downvoted.

I am not sure how exactly anonymous voting works on Lit, but what I've noticed since this bombing campaign started is that I get 2-3 bombs on my stories, and then after several hours it happens again. There has to be something in the way it works that can be abused as I really doubt that every time it is 2-3 different people voting who just happen to vote on my stories at the exact same time

 

[Smuttyandfun]

You are a very talented writer, and I think it's a shame that a troll is spoiling the fun of writing for you.

I really don't think you should take down your stories. Instead, if you feel the need to, why don't you just step away for a while. Don't even look in on your scores. Just take a break from the site.

When your muse has found you again, then write, contribute and find the joy again.

I've had loads of one bombs. And right now, I've got a troll who loves to bash my top rated stories. I've decided just to ignore him, otherwise, I feel like he's won. And I don't think I should let him win.

Personally, I think you're too good of a writer to walk away, or to let your troll win.

Whatever you decide, I do hope you find your muse again. Because I think it would be a real shame if this was enough to stop you from enjoying what you obviously enjoy doing, and readers have enjoyed, too, judging by your scores and all the positive comments you've received.

 

[Voboy]

​

I also want to announce that I've decided to take down all of my stories. I have already initiated the procedure and I suppose it will take a couple of days.

I think that's a shame. But it's your work, not mine.

The biggest reason for my low motivation by far is the lack of readers' feedback and I would like to use this opportunity to criticize all the readers out there for not understanding how important their input is to all of us. When I was just a reader, I must shamefully admit that I had no clue of the importance of commenting. The thought that some authors would care about my opinions and impressions of their stories never even crossed my mind Now I know.

​

Now you're being ridiculous. You're taking "this opportunity to criticize all the readers out there" for doing the same thing you did yourself. That's hypocrisy.

You didn't know your power when you were just a reader. Neither do the people who aren't giving you feedback. What gives you the right to criticize them? They're merely ignorant, as ignorant as you used to be. Stop holding them to a higher standard than the one to which you formerly held yourself.

As I said in the title, this thread is also about ratings. I've used the communication with Laurel to pitch an idea that would hopefully put a stop to these malicious bombing campaigns. I suggested implementing an option for an author to disable anonymous voting for their story. A similar thing already exists for comments even if we have the power to delete them.

This would weight the voting on contests and HoF, so my thought is that a writer who disabled anon voting would probably not be in contention for any of that.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

You are very talented writer, and I think it's a shame that a troll is spoiling the fun of writing for you.

I really don't think you should take down your stories. Instead, if you feel the need to, why don't you just step away for a while. Don't even look in on your scores. Just take a break from the site.

When your muse has found you again, then write, contribute and find the joy again.

I've had loads of one bombs. And right now, I've got a troll who loves to bash my top rated stories. I've decided just to ignore him, otherwise, I feel like he's won. And I don't think I should let him win.

Personally, I think you're too good of a writer to walk away, or to let your troll win.

Whatever you decide, I do hope you find your muse again. Because I think it would be a real shame if this was enough to stop you from enjoying what you obviously enjoy doing, and readers have enjoyed, too, judging by your scores and all the positive comments you've received.

Wow, thank you for all those kind words. I am actually doing this to try to boost my motivation. I feel like I should remove all the things that are killing my motivation and simply reset myself. The grammar/structural mistakes I made in earlier chapters have always irked me as I would always imagine some reader thinking "Oh wow, this dumbass can't even get the grammar right!" I feel like fixing all those things and letting the stories stand on their merit without the jarring effect of those kinds of mistakes. Also, being able to log onto Lit without seeing someone's pettiness being projected on my stories also feels like something that would let me reset. I could be wrong, I guess, but what is the worst that can happen?

 

[Constories]

Wanna know the kill move to stop (singular) trolls from fucking with your scores?

Write in LW.



Yeah, the score isn't that high, but nobody has the time to drag it down. Look how many votes that thing has. I have it on good authority that other categories don't get that many votes. Lol

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I
Now you're being ridiculous. You're taking "this opportunity to criticize all the readers out there" for doing the same thing you did yourself. That's hypocrisy.

You didn't know your power when you were just a reader. Neither do the people who aren't giving you feedback. What gives you the right to criticize them? They're merely ignorant, as ignorant as you used to be. Stop holding them to a higher standard than the one to which you formerly held yourself.

Thus the tone of it and the smiley I put. I am simply using this to tell them this way how important their feedback is to most of us. I didn't really mean "criticizing" as criticizing. I thought that was obvious from the tone, but maybe it wasn't.

 

[Smuttyandfun]

Wow, thank you for all those kind words. I am actually doing this to try to boost my motivation. I feel like I should remove all the things that are killing my motivation and simply reset myself. The grammar/structural mistakes I made in earlier chapters have always irked me as I would always imagine some reader thinking "Oh wow, this dumbass can't even get the grammar right!" I feel like fixing all those things and letting the stories stand on their merit without the jarring effect of those kinds of mistakes. Also, being able to log onto Lit without seeing someone's pettiness being projected on my stories also feels like something that would let me reset. I could be wrong, I guess, but what is the worst that can happen?

I've got loads of stories I need to fix. To be honest, some of them make me cringe. I'm not going to take them down, though. When and if I ever find the time, I'll revise and resubmit them. But I would never take my stories off the site, just for the few that I think are cringe worthy.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Maybe you should try autotone.

Thus the tone of it and the smiley I put. I am simply using this to tell them this way how important their feedback is to most of us. I didn't really mean "criticizing" as criticizing. I thought that was obvious from the tone, but maybe it wasn't.

 

[SimonDoom]

Simon, I respect the fact that your opinion is different from mine and I can say that some of your points seem reasonable to me too, but I feel I need to correct you on two accounts.
First, you keep saying The Site wants this and The Site wants that, The Site will never do this, and so on. Unless you are Laurel's alt I don't see how you can make such claims with that degree of confidence. I respect that it is the impression you have gotten over the years, but to project that much certainty about those things is over the top.

Laurel has said so. She's made it clear that the majority of votes and comments come from Anonymous readers, and she's not going to do anything to stop them because it would be bad for overall feedback. This doesn't come from me.

Okay, I would be fine with an author having an option to ban anonymous voting on his/her stories. Hell there's already an option to ban anonymous comments, so why not?

Here's the problem with this. There's no problem with your eliminating anonymous comments, because that has nothing to do with me. But eliminating anonymous votes while STILL allowing your stories to be ranked in contests and toplists DOES affect me and your fellow authors, and if we choose not to eliminate anonymous comments we may be at an unfair disadvantage relative to you. That's unfair. It is a system that will incentivize gamesmanship among authors. I personally don't want to eliminate anonymous voters, but if the system allows you to do so then I have to choose between allowing everyone to vote, something I (and many others) want, and considering whether it puts me at a competitive disadvantage relative to you, if we assume that anonymous votes, overall, are lower than anonymous votes (I'm not sure this is true).

Why should we do this, to assuage the concerns of the minority of authors who actually care about this issue? I assume most authors never think about this issue or care about it, and a substantial number of authors like me strongly do NOT want anonymous votes eliminated.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Laurel has said so. She's made it clear that the majority of votes and comments come from Anonymous readers, and she's not going to do anything to stop them because it would be bad for overall feedback. This doesn't come from me.

All right, I believe you, but when was this? I mean, in that case, she already reneged on what she said as she did allow authors to disable anonymous comments. Same as all of us, Laurel can change her mind

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Laurel has said so. She's made it clear that the majority of votes and comments come from Anonymous readers, and she's not going to do anything to stop them because it would be bad for overall feedback. This doesn't come from me.



Here's the problem with this. There's no problem with your eliminating anonymous comments, because that has nothing to do with me. But eliminating anonymous votes while STILL allowing your stories to be ranked in contests and toplists DOES affect me and your fellow authors, and if we choose not to eliminate anonymous comments we may be at an unfair disadvantage relative to you. That's unfair. It is a system that will incentivize gamesmanship among authors. I personally don't want to eliminate anonymous voters, but if the system allows you to do so then I have to choose between allowing everyone to vote, something I (and many others) want, and considering whether it puts me at a competitive disadvantage relative to you, if we assume that anonymous votes, overall, are lower than anonymous votes (I'm not sure this is true).

Why should we do this, to assuage the concerns of the minority of authors who actually care about this issue? I assume most authors never think about this issue or care about it, and a substantial number of authors like me strongly do NOT want anonymous votes eliminated.

"Competitive Advantage?" What exactly are you talking about?

What are you competing for? In contests? Obviously in contests there would have to be a standardized rule about which voting settings are legal.

But for normal scores? I don't understand why you would care? If it bothers you so much that other authors get better scores by removing anonymous voting, then Laurel could easily remedied that by only giving you an orange H (or whatever) if you turn off anonymous voting.

Again, I'm not going to remove anonymous voting for myself, but I wouldn't mind if other people did it.

 

[Voboy]

Thus the tone of it and the smiley I put. I am simply using this to tell them this way how important their feedback is to most of us. I didn't really mean "criticizing" as criticizing. I thought that was obvious from the tone, but maybe it wasn't.

I think "inform" is the verb you're looking for, but even so?

They're not reading this. You're not reaching them. This is you, venting. Your readers are no better educated than they were yesterday, I'm afraid.