Yet another question about categories

[EarlyMorningLight]

I’m nearly finished with a story that contains both BDSM and Group Sex scenes. Both are central to the story but in terms of raw content there’s more BDSM. Based on what I understand about the hierarchy of categories here, BDSM would trump, correct?

 

[Kumquatqueen]

That's how I'd see it. I'd also make it obvious either in a header or just from the first few paragraphs of the story that multiple people will be involved, so people only wanting to read One True (het) Pair stories can nope out before getting to vote.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

That's how I'd see it. I'd also make it obvious either in a header or just from the first few paragraphs of the story that multiple people will be involved, so people only wanting to read One True (het) Pair stories can nope out before getting to vote.

Yeah, I’m planning on a whole heap of upfront disclaimers with this one.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think you are correct. A heads-up to the readers is a good idea.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

There’s a lot of wiggle-room, generally. In terms of ‘trump’ categories, I tend to think of them as those centred on things which some readers, rightly or wrongly, would find offensive, especially if they hadn’t been expecting it. Those include gay male, non-consensual, extreme BDSM, some fetish (eg water sports), sometimes interracial and sometimes trans. For instance, using the example above, if you have a couple of lovers peeing on each other in the middle of a Romance tale, your scores will take a hit and you’ll hear about it at length. It’s simpler to put them into a category where such is expected, in this case Fetish.

As you note, if you’re in doubt, a warning up front is a good idea. There are some here who will disagree, saying we’re all adults and writers shouldn’t have to baby readers. To me, it’s simply good manners.

 

[Trionyx]

I’ve put warnings in an intro paragraph and some readers still complain in their comments. I agree with TP about trump categories. Water sports in romances definitely won’t fly.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

I’ve put warnings in an intro paragraph and some readers still complain in their comments.

I think it was Mark Twain who remarked that people who won't read have no advantage over those who can't read. I still think it's a good idea to try, if only to deny the whiners any real basis for complaint.

 

[tenyari]

It's really odd that you can't place a story in multiple categories.

But you can tag your story to at least note all the categories it logically fits within.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's really odd that you can't place a story in multiple categories.

But you can tag your story to at least note all the categories it logically fits within.

It seems at first blush to be weird, but think about it from the perspective of the reader.

The reader is interested in being able to find stories in a category he's interested in, and also not having too many stories in that category list, which makes it difficult to find the right story.

Another problem: If stories are in multiple categories, then it multiplies the number of stories one sees in toplists for a category. That ALSO makes it harder to find the stories one wants to read.

There is a logic to keeping it simple and sweet, even if it means doing short-shrift to stories that straddle categories.

 

[tenyari]

It seems at first blush to be weird, but think about it from the perspective of the reader.

I actually am thinking about it from that perspective.

My main hurdle to reading stories here is that I can never find them because they're placed in one category when I am seeking them for their content that fits in another.

For example, anything with any element of 'sci fi / fantasy' gets tossed in there regardless of what kind of erotica it happens to be. Making that category near useless for a reader. This category in particular is a problem as most of the categories are about a 'fetish of kink' related to a type of erotic nature, but this one is a genre - so it happens to cover ALL 'types of erotics' stories as well as that genre, making it meaningless.

If I can't clearly find a story that deals on some angle I seek, because it also happens to deal on another angle so got thrown over there - I miss that story.

Likewise if a story has more than one theme in it, and I heavily dislike one of those themes, but it's been placed in a category I am seeking because it also has that - then I get frustrated when I find the story is trending towards some fetish / angle I dislike.

The single category and no standard to tagging makes it very hard as a reader to find anything of value. I find myself clicking out of a lot of stories in frustration, and passing over other stories out of uncertainty.

What if an author writes an exhibitionist story about a gay alien losing his virginity?
Is that 'non human', 'exhibition', 'gay', 'scifi' OR 'first time'?
- What if a reader wants to read a story that is exhibitionism and first times, but is turned off by 'scifi' or 'gay', and neutral on 'elves and aliens'? And another reader likes 'gay alien' stories as long as they're not about exhibitionism. These readers are going to get tripped up by that story. And the reader who likes all of these themes might never find the story because they only think to look in one of the categories, and it's been put in another.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's really odd that you can't place a story in multiple categories.

But you can tag your story to at least note all the categories it logically fits within.

I share that frustration. Every one of my stories here crosses at least two categories, and wherever I end up categorising them I know I'm missing readers who don't think to look for lesbian romance in SF/F etc. etc. Plenty of other story sites support multiple categorisation and it works fine.

AFAIK the reason why Literotica does it this way is simply that it's an old site and that kind of design wasn't uncommon when it was set up. Having been set up that way, it's a lot of work to change over. I understand there are plans to switch to a more tag-based system but when that might happen is anybody's guess.

 

[tenyari]

AFAIK the reason why Literotica does it this way is simply that it's an old site and that kind of design wasn't uncommon when it was set up.

Yeah.

I'm not asking for a revolution. Just venting frustration.

That said I almost find it easier to find stories on the old alt.sex.stories repo than here - granted NO ONE was enforcing tags on UseNet so a LOT of writers mis-tagged there and you can end up getting "squicked" by an extreme turn off really fast. But with those writers who followed the ancient popular tagging system - stuff is easy to filter through.

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

It seems at first blush to be weird, but think about it from the perspective of the reader.

The reader is interested in being able to find stories in a category he's interested in, and also not having too many stories in that category list, which makes it difficult to find the right story.

Another problem: If stories are in multiple categories, then it multiplies the number of stories one sees in toplists for a category. That ALSO makes it harder to find the stories one wants to read.

There is a logic to keeping it simple and sweet, even if it means doing short-shrift to stories that straddle categories.

But do readers’ wants shape the interface, or does the interface shape user behaviour, or at least reward some patterns of behaviour over others? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that, on a site with a rigid category structure, reader behaviour becomes increasingly rigid, and writers who straddle categories have to walk on eggshells to protect the fragile sensibilities of people who get mad if they encounter something slightly outside of their very specific kinks.

This is a specific interest of mine because user experience strategy and design is part of what I do professionally.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

I will often scan the list of tags for a category - if I see the content in my story listed in the tags for that category, then I feel safe posting it there.

 

[Bramblethorn]

But do readers’ wants shape the interface, or does the interface shape user behaviour, or at least reward some patterns of behaviour over others? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that, on a site with a rigid category structure, reader behaviour becomes increasingly rigid, and writers who straddle categories have to walk on eggshells to protect the fragile sensibilities of people who get mad if they encounter something slightly outside of their very specific kinks.

This is a specific interest of mine because user experience strategy and design is part of what I do professionally.

I suspect there is some of that, but I don't think it's all that's going on.

Literotica has been around more than twenty years, which is a long time for a website, and other than adding new stories there hasn't been a lot of change during that time. (Or rather, not much that the average reader would notice.) That tends to filter the user base in favour of people who don't like change, because the ones who do like change probably jumped ship five or ten years ago to try out the newer rival sites.

That difference in demographics probably affects the behaviour you're talking about.

 

[ElectricBlue]

But do readers’ wants shape the interface, or does the interface shape user behaviour, or at least reward some patterns of behaviour over others? I don’t think it’s a coincidence that, on a site with a rigid category structure, reader behaviour becomes increasingly rigid, and writers who straddle categories have to walk on eggshells to protect the fragile sensibilities of people who get mad if they encounter something slightly outside of their very specific kinks.

This is a specific interest of mine because user experience strategy and design is part of what I do professionally.

I think that's a really interesting question, chicken or egg?

But what I continue to find astonishing, frankly, on an adult website, is the high number of readers who get squicked so so easily, and don't understand "back out now."

Sure, I understand triggers and warnings, and the need to protect one's well being and so on, and I'm an advocate of socially responsible erotica (which for me means thinking hard about what you write, and considering exactly those things in my content), but I read so many of these threads, and think, really? Should you even be here if you can't manage these unexpected things?

I think some folk expect writers to jump through hoops to manage their readers' sensitivities. I expect my readers in turn to be adult about their behaviour - it's not my job to anticipate every fragility, but if you're fragile, it most certainly is your job, and that might mean, "don't read certain categories, full stop."

 

[EarlyMorningLight]

I think that's a really interesting question, chicken or egg?

But what I continue to find astonishing, frankly, on an adult website, is the high number of readers who get squicked so so easily, and don't understand "back out now."

Sure, I understand triggers and warnings, and the need to protect one's well being and so on, and I'm an advocate of socially responsible erotica (which for me means thinking hard about what you write, and considering exactly those things in my content), but I read so many of these threads, and think, really? Should you even be here if you can't manage these unexpected things?

I think some folk expect writers to jump through hoops to manage their readers' sensitivities. I expect my readers in turn to be adult about their behaviour - it's not my job to anticipate every fragility, but if you're fragile, it most certainly is your job, and that might mean, "don't read certain categories, full stop."

I’ve worked in creative fields for decades, and have come up against my fair share of “do it for the exposure” or “we’re just a startup/small business, we can’t afford you, give us a discount” type shenanigans. One of the things about giving away your work for free is that it completely changes the dynamic. When people get your work for free or for cheap, they immediately treat you differently than a paying client. You’ve told them through your actions that you don’t place value on your time and effort, so why should they? Financial unsustainably aside, the reason I tell young creatives to stay away from these types of jobs is that the clients invariably become petty, demanding, and derogatory. And by not placing value on your own work and expertise, you’ve given them license to treat you with disrespect and second-guess your work every step of the way.

For hobbyist writers, platforms like Lit give us a chance to get our work out there without the hassles of investing significant time and effort into marketing and promotion. It gives us the freedom to write what we want without having to chase commercial trends. And even though it’s still a mediated platform, it gives us a chance to create more direct relationships with our readers than what we can achieve through the commercial platforms. There are a lot of pluses.

The downside is that a significant number of people equate getting something for free with the idea that they’re automatically getting something substandard, and that gives them the license to treat the writers like shit. Mind you, none of them care enough about “quality” to start paying for their smut, but in their minds, they’re doing us a favour by reading our work at all.

 

[Strixaluco]

It's really odd that you can't place a story in multiple categories.

But you can tag your story to at least note all the categories it logically fits within.

As reader I often wish the list of tags was in the beginning, not the end. That would work better than multiple categories.

 

[ElectricBlue]

As reader I often wish the list of tags was in the beginning, not the end. That would work better than multiple categories.

Tags are at the beginning of stories, top left.

Use the latest interface.

 

[Strixaluco]

Tags are at the beginning of stories, top left.

Use the latest interface.

No on mobile.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No on mobile.

The site put tags at the top of stories with the new interface, which was rolled out about two years ago for both mobile and computer devices.

Are you sure you're using the latest interface, because hey, the site made a major fix, which addressed a major problem, and maybe it's you who needs to catch up.

 

[Strixaluco]

The site put tags at the top of stories with the new interface, which was rolled out about two years ago for both mobile and computer devices.

Are you sure you're using the latest interface, because hey, the site made a major fix, which addressed a major problem, and maybe it's you who needs to catch up.

I wasn't active here before a few months ago (or I have been, but it was like 10 years ago and not on any of my current devices). But I found the tags now. It's kind of hidden in plain sight.