Yes, the rich really do pay their “fair share” of income taxes

[HisArpy]

It's very easy to sit here and say that the government should force the rich to pay more taxes, but the reality is not quite so straightforward.
The rich are, rich - and that gives them options.
They could, for instance say - no thank you - ill leave the country, take all my manufacturing or whatever jobs their company provides in the country - and go elsewhere.

Even those that dont provide jobs - could simply leave the country - and how much tax would you get from them then?

Having a lot of money means you get to 'negotiate' what you pay in tax.
Is it fair? probably not, but it is the system and the world we live in.

And since we're talking of fair - what about those who havent worked a day in their lives - been given homes, money, food, all provided by the government at the taxpayers expense, without contributing anything at all. I dont think that that is fair either.

(I live in the UK so our tax and social services system is very different from the US)

The reality is that this is limited by several factors.

First, just because you move out of your country of citizenship, you don't change citizenship. Without a change of citizenship, you're still going to owe taxes to your country of citizenship regardless of where you earned that money. You get an offset for the taxes you pay where you earn the money, but you're still going to have to file/pay taxes to your country of citizenship.

Secondly, the choice of where to go is difficult since most political entities have taxes in one form or another. It's the aggregate tax burden which is important and of those nations with low aggregate taxes few are havens for "the rich."

Third, when broken down to it's most basic form, consumers are who pay the taxes for everyone via hidden pass through pricing. It doesn't matter if you're rich or poor, if you consume goods some of the money you pay for those goods are going to be used to pay the income taxes for the owner of those goods. Those dollars are the dollars "the rich" pass on to government as "their" taxes over and above any "sales tax" which is collected.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

All in all, it sounds like you blame poor people while being perfectly fine with rich people extorting them.

That is kind of my take to.

 

[IsobelDoc]

Ah now the reason comes out, you pay more than you should. By who's standards? Yours?

Don't like paying taxes, why don't you move to some other country where the tax rates are not so high? I'm betting you stay put, just like those wealthy people do.

I dont move, because I can't afford to. its as simple as that.
You, with your 54 ways of paying less tax, may have plenty of money and have that luxury - but i'm stuck where i am, barely making ends meet and having the government steal a percentage of what I break my back to earn each month. Then they give it to some lowlife who hasnt worked a day in their lives - even though they are perfectly healthy and able to, just because they don't want to.

 

[HisArpy]

I dont move, because I can't afford to. its as simple as that.
You, with your 54 ways of paying less tax, may have plenty of money and have that luxury - but i'm stuck where i am, barely making ends meet and having the government steal a percentage of what I break my back to earn each month. Then they give it to some lowlife who hasnt worked a day in their lives - even though they are perfectly healthy and able to, just because they don't want to.

Welcome to being one of those dangerous Right wing conservatives who thinks your stuff belongs to you and not anyone else.

 

[IsobelDoc]

and no i'm not ok with the rich avoiding taxes. but im also aware that the 'negotiations' on tax burdens is part of the process of attracting business to the country. You think that the Chinese car manufacturers that are building factories in the UK just now didnt negotiate what taxes they would pay before they agreed to set up here?

If you think that then you are seriously deluded.

 

[adrina]

Who are the freeloaders? What percentage of those on social assistance truly don't want to work? Name them. Don't just throw that line out there, back it up with fact, not your personal feelings.

In your estimation, how many people (percentage) on average is that?

All in all, it sounds like you blame poor people for choosing to be poor while being perfectly fine with rich people extorting them.

Poverty wages cost U.S. taxpayers about $153 billion each year, according to a recent report from the University of California, Berkeley. That's because, when families depend on low-wage jobs to survive, they're forced to rely on government programs like Medicaid and food stamps to make ends meet.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/low-wages-cost-taxpayers-153-billion_n_7055202
(originally a WaPo piece, but paywall blah blah)

Seems like the biggest beneficiary of Welfare in America are big corporations.

Oh and this was in 2015. You can bet it has increased since then.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I dont move, because I can't afford to. its as simple as that.

And I don't move because I like where I live, and the taxes are not a big enough burden to make me want to move.

You, with your 54 ways of paying less tax, may have plenty of money and have that luxury - but i'm stuck where i am, barely making ends meet and having the government steal a percentage of what I break my back to earn each month. Then they give it to some lowlife who hasnt worked a day in their lives - even though they are perfectly healthy and able to, just because they don't want to.

Now the real reason come outs. You feel sorry for yourself, and think all those people on welfare are living up the dream. Maybe try social assistance sometime. Here in Canada that works out to about $900.00 bucks a month. You can sure live high on the hog on $10,800.00 bucks a year!!

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Welcome to being one of those dangerous Right wing conservatives who thinks your stuff belongs to you and not anyone else.

Then go make your own country and you can make your own tax laws. Otherwise quit bitching about the status quo.

 

[IsobelDoc]

And I don't move because I like where I live, and the taxes are not a big enough burden to make me want to move.

Now the real reason come outs. You feel sorry for yourself, and think all those people on welfare are living up the dream. Maybe try social assistance sometime. Here in Canada that works out to about $900.00 bucks a month. You can sure live high on the hog on $10,800.00 bucks a year!!

I'm not in canada - nor in the US - I can only comment on what I see in the UK and what I see daily in the UK is we have a massive and increasing 'wont work' sub culture. People who have never worked, and brought their several kids into the world and taught them the same values.

And why shouldn't i feel sorry for myself - i work 60 hours a week, for a pittance, and almost half of that pittance is stolen from me to give to someone that can't be arsed to prise themselves out of bed in a morning. Again i'm not talking of people in genuine need but of those who could work, but choose not to.

Then go make your own country and you can make your own tax laws. Otherwise quit bitching about the status quo.

Dont talk crap. That very same argument could be turned around and we could say if you dont like the amount of tax the rich are paying then go make your own country and charge them more. Otherwise quit bitching about the status quo

 

[ll74]

I'm not in canada - nor in the US - I can only comment on what I see in the UK and what I see daily in the UK is we have a massive and increasing 'wont work' sub culture. People who have never worked,

Do you actually see that or do you just perceive that?

 

[Fuzzy1975]

I'm not in canada - nor in the US - I can only comment on what I see in the UK and what I see daily in the UK is we have a massive and increasing 'wont work' sub culture. People who have never worked, and brought their several kids into the world and taught them the same values.

Well show me some proof. Otherwise all I see is you bitching.

And why shouldn't i feel sorry for myself - i work 60 hours a week, for a pittance, and almost half of that pittance is stolen from me t

Stolen? You don't use the roads, walkways, bathroom or drink the water...for examples....

Dont talk crap.

It's not crap it's the truth, you both live in societies that have laws that allow taxation. Don't like that move somewhere else and make your own country.

 

[IsobelDoc]

Do you actually see that or do you just perceive that?

I actually see it.

 

[IsobelDoc]

It's not crap it's the truth, you both live in societies that have laws that allow taxation. Don't like that move somewhere else and make your own country.

If we are going down that road - and you dont like the fact that the rich are not paying enough tax... then move somewhere else and make your own country where they pay more - and stop bitching about the status quo

 

[ll74]

I actually see it.

Bullshit.

 

[KeithD]

Bullshit to the thread assertion.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

I am just pointing out, that historically the rich are now paying the lowest share of their income towards the services that taxes pay for, in the country in which they reside. It's not an observation nor a complaint, it is a FACT!

Perhaps. I really don’t know. Marginal tax rates and actual tax payments are different things. This thread deals with 2001-2020.

 

[IsobelDoc]

A pertinent question would be then - if you dont feel that the rich are indeed paying their 'fare share' of tax - how much should they be paying?

I am by no means rich - but with National insurance I pay 54% of my montly wage in tax (after allowances)
(40% income tax and 12+2% National insurance)
And before you ask - i dont even make close to six figures.

 

[ll74]

A pertinent question would be then - if you dont feel that the rich are indeed paying their 'fare share' of tax - how much should they be paying?

I am by no means rich - but with National insurance I pay 54% of my montly wage in tax (after allowances)
(40% income tax and 12+2% National insurance)
And before you ask - i dont even make close to six figures.

They should pay 54% of their monthly wage then

 

[Pad_Foot]

lol in the 1950's the rate was 90%, in the early 80's 70%....now it's 26% and you think that is too high??? take your opinion piece and shove it up your ass.....lol

But but BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT !!!!!!!!!!!!
Trickle Down !! The Economy is so much better now that "they" pay less!!!!
Voodoo Economics?? Who said that???

The RICH suck up money and resources and trickle their piss down on the rest of us, while storing their wealth off shore, and moving AMERICAN businesses off shore. Communist thought? OR fucking TRUTH ??

 

[IsobelDoc]

Bullshit.

I'm not going to go toe to toe with you on this. I dont want to row with you or for things to get personal between us.

I want to make a couple of things clear I do believe that the rich should pay more tax, I just am of the opinion that they are in a much better position to determine their own tax burden, certainly than I am.

I am also fully in favour of a welfare system but I believe that there are those who abuse the system, who could and should contribute to the country rather than taking from it. There was an estimate that Benefit fraud in the uk cost the country about 2.4 billion pounds in the year 2019-2020.

I work in a busy inner city hospital - and I see poor people all the time, its my job to help them. I also see those who are not poor, who are driving around in BMW's and wearing designer clothes and living lavish lifestyles, having never worked a day in their lives, because they know how to play the system. How do they know ? they learned it from their parents who also played the system.

It is these people I resent paying my tax to fund. Not the ones who deserve to be assisted. Our problem in the UK isnt coming from immigration. Most immigrants come to work, to earn themselves a better life. Our problem is the increasing underclass of people who are learning at their mothers knee that the best way to live - is to do so at the expense of the state.

 

[Tayloroc]

Analysis by the Tax Foundation of 2020 tax and revenue statistics recently released by the IRS reveal some interesting findings. Below are from a summary published in today’s WSJ:

- The top 1% of earners paid 42.3% of the country’s income taxes. (a two-decade high in the share of taxes paid by the 1%)

- That same 1% reported earnings of 22.2% of adjusted gross income (AGI) on their tax returns, meaning their share of taxes paid as a group is roughly double their share of income.

- The top 5% of earners reported 38.1% of total AGI but paid 62.7% of all income taxes.

- The bottom 50% of earners reported 10.2% of AGI but paid 2.3% of all income taxes.

- In the aggregate the top 1% in 2020 earned at least about $550,000 and paid an average income-tax rate of 26%.

- Those making more than $220,000 but less than $550,000 paid an average rate of 17.5%.

- For those in the next grouping, above about $150,000, it’s 13.1%. Above $85,000, 9.5%. Above $42,000, 6.5%.

- The bottom 50% of taxpayers, those below about $42,000, paid an average rate of 3.1%.

- The trend over the past two decades is that the income tax burden has been shifting even more to the highest earners. In 2001 the top 1% con-tributed 33.2% of income-tax revenue, nine points lower than in 2020. The TCJA tax reform in 2017 has not changed the trend.

- The next income group, those between the top 1% and the top 5%, have also been picking up more of the bill, 20.4% in 2020 versus 19% in 2001.

- Meanwhile, the share of income taxes paid by lower earners has been going down. The bottom 50% of Americans in 2001 provided 4.9% of the revenue. As of 2020 it was 2.3%. The next income group, those between the top 25% and the bottom 50%, used to contribute 13.5% of the income tax. That has fallen to 9.2%.


It must be noted that these figures are for the income tax only. They don’t include payroll taxes or excise taxes on gasoline and other goods, both of which are less progressive. But income taxes contribute half of all federal revenue (and roughly another third is Social Security and Medicare)

I'm not going to go toe to toe with you on this. I dont want to row with you or for things to get personal between us.

I want to make a couple of things clear I do believe that the rich should pay more tax, I just am of the opinion that they are in a much better position to determine their own tax burden, certainly than I am.

I am also fully in favour of a welfare system but I believe that there are those who abuse the system, who could and should contribute to the country rather than taking from it. There was an estimate that Benefit fraud in the uk cost the country about 2.4 billion pounds in the year 2019-2020.

I work in a busy inner city hospital - and I see poor people all the time, its my job to help them. I also see those who are not poor, who are driving around in BMW's and wearing designer clothes and living lavish lifestyles, having never worked a day in their lives, because they know how to play the system. How do they know ? they learned it from their parents who also played the system.

It is these people I resent paying my tax to fund. Not the ones who deserve to be assisted. Our problem in the UK isnt coming from immigration. Most immigrants come to work, to earn themselves a better life. Our problem is the increasing underclass of people who are learning at their mothers knee that the best way to live - is to do so at the expense of the state.

What’s really a shame in the US is that we are not keeping the extended child care tax credit for the working poor. By any measure, it reduced child poverty levels by a lot.

 

[ll74]

I'm not going to go toe to toe with you on this. I dont want to row with you or for things to get personal between us.

You're blaming poor people . I don't give a shit whether you think it's personal.

I want to make a couple of things clear I do believe that the rich should pay more tax, I just am of the opinion that they are in a much better position to determine their own tax burden, certainly than I am.

It's a simple percentage. If a rich person pays 10% of their income and a poor person pays 45%, the poor person is paying more of their money.

I am also fully in favour of a welfare system but I believe that there are those who abuse the system, who could and should contribute to the country rather than taking from it. There was an estimate that Benefit fraud in the uk cost the country about 2.4 billion pounds in the year 2019-2020.

There are rich people who abuse the tax system...what's your point?

I work in a busy inner city hospital - and I see poor people all the time, its my job to help them. I also see those who are not poor, who are driving around in BMW's and wearing designer clothes and living lavish lifestyles, having never worked a day in their lives, because they know how to play the system. How do they know ? they learned it from their parents who also played the system.

You're obviously assuming you know where their money came from....else how do you know?

It is these people I resent paying my tax to fund. Not the ones who deserve to be assisted. Our problem in the UK isnt coming from immigration. Most immigrants come to work, to earn themselves a better life. Our problem is the increasing underclass of people who are learning at their mothers knee that the best way to live - is to do so at the expense of the state.

You literally have no clue...you're perception is not based on factual information.

 

[IsobelDoc]

It's a simple percentage. If a rich person pays 10% of their income and a poor person pays 45%, the poor person is paying more of their money.

You really are a simplistic moron. A poor person may pay a higher percentage of their income, and pay maybe 5 or 6k per year in tax. 10% of a rich persons income could be literal Millions or even more.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Apparently the think tank of wealthy businessmen not only misrepresents context but is glaringly tone deaf in an age of stagnating wages paired with astronomical growth of wealth for the rich. And of course the historically high wealth distribution gap - which hasn't been seen for almost 100 years.

Wonder what happened then. Good thing we have the social net programs. Currently at least. Given your druthers - and the wealthy businessmen think tank - those would go away.

It is insanely un-American to believe what is good for big business and the wealthy is good for America. It defies logic and principle.

This thread is not about businessmen or stagnant wages. It provides IRS data that illustrates that the highest earners pay a greater percentage of their income in taxes than middle class and low income taxpayers, and that they contribute a higher proportion of total tax receipts. That probably surprises a lot of people, especially President Biden who recently said the rich should pay their “fair share.”

 

[Fuzzy1975]

Perhaps. I really don’t know. Marginal tax rates and actual tax payments are different things. This thread deals with 2001-2020.

If you are going to discuss tax rates, then why limit it to 20 years? Oh right...