how fair taxing of billionaires reaps rewards for communities... Mass. seeing over $800M more than expected with 3 months still to go

[butters]

Massachusetts is declaring early victory, with an announcement this week that the state’s tax on its highest earners has yielded $1.8 billion in additional income.

The money from the so-called “fair share” tax has been earmarked to boost transportation and education, including giving every public-school child in the state free lunch, Healey’s office told Fortune last fall, and while the fate of the surplus funds isn’t yet clear, it’s likely to be designated for capital projects related to education and infrastructure. “Those are two areas of immense need,” the senate budget chief, Michael Rodrigues, said on the senate floor, according to State House News Service.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/new...&cvid=f9a98be12a164b57a0c479a4f1f3d8fa&ei=340

 

[TastySuckToy]

If the high earners are fine with high taxes, then they'll stay and pay as little of it as possible under the tax code.

Once it gets too high for them, they'll just leave for more favourable areas with less tax.

 

[JohnEngelman]

If the high earners are fine with high taxes, then they'll stay and pay as little of it as possible under the tax code.

Once it gets too high for them, they'll just leave for more favourable areas with less tax.

To move to a country with lower taxes rich people will probably need to move to a country with a high crime rate, dangerous drinking water, and dirt roads.

 

[JohnEngelman]

When the top tax rate never got below 70%. and was often higher the national debt as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP) declined from 114% in 1945 to 32% in 1980.

The national debt as a percentage of GDP grew to 129% under Trump, but declined to 123% after two years of Biden.

Republicans are using the rise in the national debt for which they are responsible in efforts to cut popular domestic spending programs.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-by-year-compared-to-gdp-and-major-events-3306287​

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/02inpetr.pdf

 

[TastySuckToy]

To move to a country with lower taxes rich people will probably need to move to a country with a high crime rate, dangerous drinking water, and dirt roads.

Then they move to high wealth neighbourhoods where that isn't the case.

 

[JohnEngelman]

Then they move to high wealth neighbourhoods where that isn't the case.

If rich people move to low tax countries, while continuing to make their money in the United states, the money they make here can be taxed.

Also, in low tax countries they will probably need to live in gated communities, with private guards. They will need to have private water purification plants and electricity generating plants. They will not be able to rely on telephone communication.

 

[policywank]

Then they move to high wealth neighbourhoods where that isn't the case.

Unless I misunderstand this refers to a state tax. To avoid it all one has to do is leave the state, not the country. There are also other ways that people will change their behaviour to minimize taxes aside from moving to a different jurisdiction.

A significant challenge in understanding the impact of these things is that whether on a prospective or reflective basis governments and economists tend to look at only the amount of tax they they think they will collect or did collect on a given level of taxable activity. It is much more difficult to assess the impact on all of the other decisions people make in terms of consumption, investment and compensation structure.

I think that in principle there is such a thing as the "right" level of taxation and for most western economies that involves progressive taxation meaning those that earn more pay more. The question is how much more is the right and fair amount. Too often the political rhetoric just devolves into misrepresenting circumstances and concluding that as long as there is any need anywhere we should just tax the rich more. At some point this becomes counter productive.

 

[TastySuckToy]

If rich people move to low tax countries, while continuing to make their money in the United states, the money they make here can be taxed.

So they make their money elsewhere. Problem solved.

Also, in low tax countries they will probably need to live in gated communities, with private guards. They will need to have private water purification plants and electricity generating plants.

Sure. Wealthy people have the options to leave high tax areas and setup shop somewhere else, and poorer areas welcome that with open arms.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Unless I misunderstand this refers to a state tax. To avoid it all one has to do is leave the state, not the country. There are also other ways that people will change their behaviour to minimize taxes aside from moving to a different jurisdiction.

Oh absolutely. Doesn't even need to be tax amounts, but how taxes are spent and jurisdiction issues.

Baton Rouge just had a vote where a majority of higher wealth citizens got tired of their tax dollars being wasted, so they voted to make their own city, St. George.

Naturally this has lead to a lot of whining from the less wealthy residents being left behind in their own jurisdiction, ranging from claims of racism to claims the wealthy are disproportionately taking tax dollars.

Which ironically, should be cause for celebration if those accusations were actually true: "Oh no! The racists benefiting from our tax dollars are leaving! How dare they!"

 

[MajorRewrite]

So they make their money elsewhere. Problem solved.

Sure. Wealthy people have the options to leave high tax areas and setup shop somewhere else, and poorer areas welcome that with open arms.

As already pointed out, the top marginal tax rates in the US were much higher from after WW2 to the 1970s. The nation prospered and there was no flight of rich people to other nations.

 

[TastySuckToy]

As already pointed out, the top marginal tax rates in the US were much higher from after WW2 to the 1970s. The nation prospered and there was no flight of rich people to other nations.

High tax rates don't mean much when there are many legal loopholes to avoid them, especially when the wealthy lobby and pay politicians to ensure such options exist.

 

[MajorRewrite]

High tax rates don't mean much when there are many legal loopholes to avoid them, especially when the wealthy lobby and pay politicians to ensure such options exist.

So the rich have no reason to flee the country. Glad you agree.

 

[TastySuckToy]

So the rich have no reason to flee the country. Glad you agree.

And the rich don't actually pay high tax rates and any appeals to increasing tax rates on the rich are empty political nonsense, because the rich get all the loopholes they want while having the politicians in their pockets. Glad you agree.

 

[JohnEngelman]

For years public opinion surveys have indicated popular support for a more progressive tax system.

https://www.google.com/search?q=pol...IARABGBSSBwUxLjguMqAHrEE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

At the same time:

Fox News Poll: Voters favor taxing the wealthy, increasing domestic spending​

By Victoria Balara Fox News
Published January 24, 2019 5:55pm EST

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fo...xing-the-wealthy-increasing-domestic-spending

This is a winning issue for the Democrats if they choose to exploit it.

Those who advocate a flat tax clandestinely acknowledge that tax deductions are economically unnecessary.

Consequently, I advocate a steeply progressive tax system with no dedications. This would make travesties like this impossible:

 

[TastySuckToy]

For years public opinion surveys have indicated popular support for a more progressive tax system.

The tax system hits the middle class and the poor. As I explained above, the weathly have many ways of avoiding it. So much so that big corperations can report huge profits, not pay any taxes and even get money back from the government.

Like Trump said, the system is rigged and everyone knows it.

The government wants to squeeze a million people who can't fight back for a thousand dollars, not try to squeeze ten billionaires for a million dollars each, when they will fight tooth and nail with lawyers, lobbying, bribes, etc.

 

[Escierto]

You communist! Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk need every penny they have.

 

[JohnEngelman]

The tax system hits the middle class and the poor. As I explained above, the weathly have many ways of avoiding it. So much so that big corperations can report huge profits, not pay any taxes and even get money back from the government.

Like Trump said, the system is rigged and everyone knows it.

The government wants to squeeze a million people who can't fight back for a thousand dollars, not try to squeeze ten billionaires for a million dollars each, when they will fight tooth and nail with lawyers, lobbying, bribes, etc.

I have already pointed out that the way to unrig the system it is to remove all tax deductions. In addition, tax evaders should b e severely punished.

 

[MajorRewrite]

The tax system hits the middle class and the poor. As I explained above, the weathly have many ways of avoiding it. So much so that big corperations can report huge profits, not pay any taxes and even get money back from the government.

Like Trump said, the system is rigged and everyone knows it.

The government wants to squeeze a million people who can't fight back for a thousand dollars, not try to squeeze ten billionaires for a million dollars each, when they will fight tooth and nail with lawyers, lobbying, bribes, etc.

Trump’s “solution” is another tax cut for the rich.

The truth is the rich DO pay taxes.

The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes.

 

[TastySuckToy]

I have already pointed out that they to unrig it is to remove all tax deductions.

Best of luck with that, ain't gonna happen.

In addition, tax evaders should b e severely punished.

Oh they are, just not the wealthy ones. At best they get a slap on the wrist.

 

[policywank]

Our situation here (in Canada) is somewhat different than the U.S., but there are some parallels.

1. We have relatively aggressively progressive taxation systems. Higher income earners do pay a lot more tax. Whether it should be more aggressively progressive is another matter.
2. We tax, income, consumption and property, but for the most part not wealth. So while high income earners do definitely pay more tax because they have higher reported income people with a ton of wealth that don't take income (i.e. a salary) may not pay as much tax. In principle that is because they are living off of tax paid assets - i.e. they already paid tax on their accumulated wealth.
3. In practice, however, the mega rich do have a lot more ways to avoid taxation on their earnings. But the really sophisticated tax schemes are mainly only accessible by the mega rich - the top .001% not the top 1%.
4. Not every means of reducing tax is an unethical loophole. Most were put in place for a reason, including to motivate entrepreneurs to take risks that the average worker cannot even imagine. And it is those risks and initiatives that drive the economy for everyone's benefit.
5. But many tax minimizing provisions sort of become loopholes either because they get used for unintended purposes or because they are never repealed when their original purpose is no longer relevant.
6. The tax systems are unwieldy messes that are inefficient and unfair in at least some ways. But it is generally not as simple as the average person wants to believe. And truly reforming it would ruffle a whole lot of feathers and be political unpalatable.
7. There is also the issue of predictability. Capital and investment thrive on predictability and stability. Capital is drawn to countries where the rules are stable and flees those where they are unstable. Pulling the rug out from under investors after they have made their investment (and that includes the big institutions and pension funds that invest on behalf of the little guy) is a sure fire way to drive them away and make sure they never invest again. That is why countries like Argentina become such a mess - the policies are often terrible but even worse is their propensity to make wholesale changes every decade or so.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Trump’s “solution” is another tax cut for the rich.

The truth is the rich DO pay taxes.

In 2021, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.4 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes.

So the top 1% pay almost half of all federal income taxes.

And I thought the argument was the rich don't pay their fair share, but the actual evidence shows they pay vastly more than their fair share. How interesting.

 

[MajorRewrite]

So the top 1% pay almost half of all federal income taxes.

And I thought the argument was the rich don't pay their fair share, but the actual evidence shows they pay vastly more than their fair share. How interesting.

A moment ago, you argued that the rich don’t pay taxes so raising taxes on them is irrelevant.

Now, faced with facts, you say the rich do pay taxes and are in fact paying too much!

Twisting yourself in knots like that is going to hurt your back.

The truth is: the rich do pay taxes and raising the top marginal tax rate does increase revenue.

 

[JohnEngelman]

The tax system hits the middle class and the poor. As I explained above, the weathly have many ways of avoiding it. So much so that big corperations can report huge profits, not pay any taxes and even get money back from the government.

Like Trump said, the system is rigged and everyone knows it.

The government wants to squeeze a million people who can't fight back for a thousand dollars, not try to squeeze ten billionaires for a million dollars each, when they will fight tooth and nail with lawyers, lobbying, bribes, etc.

I have explained what my solution is. What is yours?

 

[JohnEngelman]

You communist! Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk need every penny they have.

The Cold War ended three decades ago. Anti Communist demagoguery does not work any more. keep up to date.

 

[TastySuckToy]

A moment ago, you argued that the rich don’t pay taxes so raising taxes on them is irrelevant.

Now, faced with facts, you say the rich do pay taxes and are in fact paying too much!

Twisting yourself in knots like that is going to hurt your back.

The truth is: the rich do pay taxes and raising the top marginal tax rate does increase revenue.

I absolutely concede the argument, the rich do indeed pay taxes and pay far more than their fair share, as proven by your source.