yeh yeh, still asking about how to turn vanilla into chocolate -- the hard questions

[Phoenix Stone]

Reprinting here a bit of a pm I sent today, in hopes that wider distribution might help with some answers. (Have gone thru library -- Thanks! read lots. Seen castlerealm, Akasha's site, and some others. Still struggling.)

My husband does know I have non consent fantasies, which I could tell he kind of put out of his mind after wincing. He didn't know until very recently, didn't quite get it that that's virtually the Only way I get off. It really did help me talk about it, be more clear and matter-of-fact, going on rapedungeon for a while and talking with some people there who turned out to be nice. It was strangely cool to be able to get into that there, to yell my support of feminism there and my being unequivocably clear and against Real rape (lots of discussion about gray areas, how do you play non-consent, etc), and still like the fantasies.

Anyway, don't know if dh has as much in him, dom-wise, as I need but he's certainly willing. And enjoying what we've done more than he and I ever expected.

Sticking point for me is more that I want verbal commands. Like lots of talk. He's not a talker. Or writer.

Other hard point for me is knowing how much and what I need. Or how far. It seems to be more the Way it's done, rather than what, physically is done. Not as clearcut as weapons or flogging, for instance. Those would possibly work or not work for me, depending on how it was played, not that they were being used per se, iykwim. (Like tieing up, blindfolds and gags, which we tried, didn't do anything for me, yet a simple grab, done with intent, did. Does that make sense?)

Not there yet, and not exactly sure what to try next. Especially since the words are so important to me and he doesn't wanna. (Not sure if it would help explaining it better, or finding a way of keeping it simple. Or something.) And, understandably, doesn't want me to play online. Flirting I miss, too, whether rl or in words online. He cuddles and stuff but doesn't flirt.

Don't know what to do. Stuck. Ideas? Am I off-base here?

 

[NCShin]

Sticking point for me is more that I want verbal commands. Like lots of talk. He's not a talker. Or writer.

Not sure if this would work, but since from what you've said you are both trying things out I'll post it for the heck of it.

What if one night you tell him you will not do anything unless he tells you to do it.

You have the remote, he wants it, you won't give it up unless he TELLS you to give it to him. IE doesn't ask for it.

If you only want this to be sexual, let him know that you're going to play dead unless he tells you exactly what he wants you to do. I'd have to imagine that at first the commands might be pretty simple and maybe not even really D/s based. Maybe it might just start with, "move a little" or some such. If he sees that you enjoy it, he may be willing to say more as time goes on.

If you're both willing to switch, you might top for a night and show him what you're looking for as far as verbal commands.

As far as the rape thing....

I'm not sure this would meet your fantasy, but maybe you could set "one night this week" that when you walked into the bedroom, he'd "jump" you.

From the male point of view on this, (I posted someplace around here my experience on this) I'd suggest not to struggle unless he's into that. Give in easier than your fantasy would want you to. The real force was what the problem was for me.

dunno if this will help, but GL

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Thank you for responding -- you got me thinking.

Ya know, you just reminded me of something that worked fairly well -- voice-controlled sex-toy. Willing to do whatever he wants but only responds to voice commands, soon as his voice stops, I stop. We only did it without him touching me though because once he touches me, that's it, no more talking. Reason? He likes it just fine when I 'play dead.' Well, play asleep, anyway. In fact, usually when he does his control thing, it's about getting me to lie still and let him do everything. Which is nice, too, though hard for me.

And he loves to bite my neck, shoulders, etc. Hmm. I keep think of things we Are doing. We're actually doing pretty well in adding things to both of your satisfaction. Think I need to visualize better wht feels like it's missing.

He's even done the jumping me thing. Jeez, the more I think about it, the more I can see that I haven't been giving him enough credit for trying stuff.

And that I need a clearer picture of what still feels so damned un-there about it. I think it's like buildup or anticipation or something, which is where the wanting flirting and teasing comes in. (I'd probably do better with the much-maligned in 'what to watch out for' sites -- online geek/horny guy fake dom, since the rl physical is so less important to me than the knowing how to get to the other person mentally.)

(After the first post I started thing about the verbal commands, and how he's got the basics -- stay, roll over, play dead -- down just fine, though any good doggy trainer would say that perhaps Owner needs to be more convincing in execution -- and that maybe we could move on to full sentences now. Would love to be commanded to beg more, too. If I may be allowed to beg for begging? )

He doesn't like to do teasing or anticipation but I offered to work for it. He can set conditions or make deals/trades. In other words, I thought maybe he wasn't getting enough out of it. He's getting sex but he'd be getting that anyway, with less work, as he probably sees it. (Especially since he'd just as soon have me lie quietly so he can adore me.) He's considering the offer.

Sort of funny in a way -- may I please beg for you? (What will I give him if he will let me beg for him. ) But hey, whatever works.

I've tried switching a little. He either laughs at my attempts or gets irritated. He definitely likes to be the doer, even to giving head. If I give him, he would rather move my head, fuck my face, which is cool. So not a sub, I don't think.

Any ideas for ways to demonstrate without your partner getting mad or laughing?

Other ideas for ways to encourage teasing and other forms of anticipation?

Hey, so far so good! After writing this I'm feeling pretty encouraged!

(Thanks for the forum, it's great to be able to come here. Even if I'm Still not sure I belong.)

 

[rosco rathbone]

Damn, rapedungeon. I totally forgot about that site.

 

[Pure]

Phoenix,

Your specs are very specific, and the only way anyone could carry them out would be if they were written down; i.e., you make the script, then get the 'actors.'

That does raise a dilemma about the 'spontaneity' of the event, doesn't it.

 

[Mr Blonde]

I am speaking as a man who has explored non-consent territory with more than one submissive.

Even if you had a compatible partner, your requests and desires are so specific and ritualized that most men would not feel in charge of the situation. Meaning....even if a man wanted to explore non-consent, he would not want to explore it with you. If he did a non-consent scene while saying nasty things to say, I bet you would tell the husband WHAT nasty things to say next time. Sorry, but it seems compulsive and just a bit much.

At some point any self-respecting man would say: "Hey, I am willing to play around and try some kinky things, but why don't you go do this stuff with your next husband? Because I'm out of here."

Why do you think some of us are single? I have met some great women with whom I was compatible...similar career goals, similar hobbies, can have interesting conversations for hours at a time. Oh, but they weren't submissive. Everyone is a little kinky, but "a little kinky" is not what I wanted so I did not pursue those relationships.

This is just the internet, so my opinion doesn't mean squat....but maybe it is time for you to accept your husband as he is or simply end the marriage. I am sorry, but damn....yes, people in long term relationships have an obligation to explore variety to keep their partner happy in the monogamy, but this guy has already over-extended himself to try to please you. Your needs sound way beyond the scope of what he can do.

 

[Queen Bee]

Phoenixstone, perhaps things feel "un-there" because whatever he agreeably does or says in the way of mock-rape, and even if he enjoys it as much as you do, he's still ultimately predictable. You know that he's a gentle person and that he adores you, so there's no genuine frisson of danger, and there's not even the novel intensity that comes with a new and largely unknown sex partner.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

doublepost

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Phoenixstone, perhaps things feel "un-there" because whatever he agreeably does or says in the way of mock-rape, and even if he enjoys it as much as you do, he's still ultimately predictable. You know that he's a gentle person and that he adores you, so there's no genuine frisson of danger, and there's not even the novel intensity that comes with a new and largely unknown sex partner.

I think you really put your finger on it here. Thank you so much for cutting thru all that and understanding.
This morning i showed my husband ssp's post on the fetish thread and he said much the same thing -- that he thinks it's the adrenaline rush. This gives us some places to go with it -- what you said about the intensity of the unknown and novelty, for instance.

Thanks again! Hope to see you around.

ps

 

[sigsauerprinces]

I think you really put your finger on it here. Thank you so much for cutting thru all that and understanding.
This morning i showed my husband ssp's post on the fetish thread and he said much the same thing -- that he thinks it's the adrenaline rush. This gives us some places to go with it -- what you said about the intensity of the unknown and novelty, for instance.

Thanks again! Hope to see you around.

ps

my post in the fetish thread-you mean my gun fantasy that i edited?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Ooooh, yeah!

Meant to say Wow, and Yowch and make a lot of other noises like that but was too cowardly. Now that's what I call Making someone come.
Sheesh, and I'm not even into weaponry, or at least never thought about it before. Was trying to figure out if it was your story, or the topic, or that you were hot when you were writing it or what it was that got me going so much.

Anyway, thank you both Queen Bee and SigSPrincess, for getting us thinking in this direction.

(And thank you Princess for encouraging me to be more brave about putting it out there what I want, even knowing I'd get flack.)

 

[sigsauerprinces]

im really glad you enjoyed it makes me happy when ppl like what i write wasnt sure if ppl were really feeling me tho, thats why i took it down. i know its on the extreme edge, but its one of my favorite fantasies. i did save it tho, maybe i'll go put it back...

 

[Queen Bee]

Glad I could help pinpoint things for you. Good luck!

ssp, I didn't get to see your gun fantasy. Sounds interesting; I hope you will repost.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

Glad I could help pinpoint things for you. Good luck!

ssp, I didn't get to see your gun fantasy. Sounds interesting; I hope you will repost.

tis reposted-its in the fetish thread

 

[Phoenix Stone]

I am speaking as a man who has explored non-consent territory with more than one submissive.

Even if you had a compatible partner, your requests and desires are so specific and ritualized that most men would not feel in charge of the situation. Meaning....even if a man wanted to explore non-consent, he would not want to explore it with you. If he did a non-consent scene while saying nasty things to say, I bet you would tell the husband WHAT nasty things to say next time. Sorry, but it seems compulsive and just a bit much.

At some point any self-respecting man would say: "Hey, I am willing to play around and try some kinky things, but why don't you go do this stuff with your next husband? Because I'm out of here."

Why do you think some of us are single? I have met some great women with whom I was compatible...similar career goals, similar hobbies, can have interesting conversations for hours at a time. Oh, but they weren't submissive. Everyone is a little kinky, but "a little kinky" is not what I wanted so I did not pursue those relationships.

This is just the internet, so my opinion doesn't mean squat....but maybe it is time for you to accept your husband as he is or simply end the marriage. I am sorry, but damn....yes, people in long term relationships have an obligation to explore variety to keep their partner happy in the monogamy, but this guy has already over-extended himself to try to please you. Your needs sound way beyond the scope of what he can do.

Mr. Blonde, I'm surprised at you!

There are lots of smartass and/or defensive ways I started to respond to this but will play it straight (as much as I can without overstretching and tearing a muscle.)

Instead, first a quote from my husband of 23 years: 'yes, it is frustrating, but what he's not figuring into the equation is that we're in love.'


There is a lot that you don't know about us. For another instance, you either misread my posts or made some assumptions, when you said that my desires are At All ritualized. Nor do I believe that they are terribly specific. That, in fact, is the main problem at this point. I don't know what I want, or what will work -- just a general direction and some likely suspects.

The 'specifics,' if they can be called that, seem to be as follows: I know I like talk and I seem to like commands, I enjoy being bitten, and I have non-consent fantasies. That's it. That's all she wrote.

There are some things that we've tried, that haven't done anything much for me, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't do them. I certainly would. It just means they don't happen to hit my buttons. My problem is figuring out what Does, (not what I'd consent to.) He isn't trying to get me to do stuff, so the point is moot, but I would do most anything except the 3 that seem to be pretty typical. (Kids, animals and scat. And, jeez, even the last is soft.) But, lucky for me, dh has no interest.

If you wanted to inform me that I'm inclined toward topping from the bottom, I already knew. If it wasn't my natural inclination -- which of course it is -- avoiding such would still be part of the challenge when one undertakes to coax, (encourage, etc.) domming from someone who wouldn't have gone there otherwise.
There are ways -- which come easier to others than to me, and I would have welcomed help in this regard. (Thank you to the one who pm'ed me privately with suggestions.) But that wasn't the question you answered. You seem to have answered a question I didn't ask.

You might want to look at what you were aiming at in writing the following:
'even if a man wanted to explore non-consent, he would not want to explore it with you;'
'any self-respecting man would say, ...go do this stuff with your next husband? Because I'm out of here."
this guy has already over-extended himself to try to please you.
'beyond the scope of what he can do.' Etc.

Did I push a button here? You seem to have personalized this, and to be identifying with my husband, seemingly having a better understanding of his capacity and overextension, his level of self-respect, (and, for that matter, my appeal,) than i do. (That domly mindreading thing I hear about? )

It is interesting to me that the 'sensitive' dom reacted harsher than the Smackish one. The other smartass thing I still want to say is that I guess it's lucky neither of us are particularily 'self-respecting.'

Lastly: To make it easier for you, and some others, to deal with me, you might want to think of me as a Domme -- who absolutely insists on being treated as a sub in bed.

Ps. Now that you've heard the many ways in which your post was unhelpful, here's a positive effect -- you did do me one favor. My husband is no longer worried that I'll be swept off my feet by some online dom. Thanks!

 

[Mr Blonde]

No, there are no buttons being pushed. You are asking us how to turn vanilla into chocolate. I wonder what sort of replies a man would get if he posted: "Hey, I am a Dom and I want to explore non-consent with my wife. I love her but she is as vanilla as a cup of milk. How can I get her to satisfy my needs?" We can only speculate about what sort of heated replies might be given to such a question.

You are trying to introduce power-exchange into what has been a successful vanilla marriage. The risks are described as being greater than the rewards. If my comments seemed harsh, let's see....near the beginning you say non-consent desires were kept a secret from him. You list all of the things he doesn't do for you. You say you don't even know if it is possible for him to please you.

You have experimented enough to know if he has an inner-Dom ready to spring up out of nowhere. He doesn't. It is play-acting. In another post, you had said that he had teased you that he would have his way. Etc. And for the big finale, he had vanilla sex in mind!

Again, you are scrambling up a love marriage and that can have fallout. I recently confessed to an acquaintance my involvement in BDSM. They had some questions and at one point it was asked: "How can you piss on her face at night and give her a smiling kiss in the morning?" There is a balance inside natural Doms. I can get satisfaction from humiliation and gentle affection. Not everyone can retain such perspectives. Yes, you can take a vanilla guy and through rituals retrain him to be more sadistic. But he will also become desensitized from enjoying the moments of light affection. Only a natural can hold onto both things at once.

Can I take a vanilla woman and train her to take beatings? Yes! Even enjoy the beatings? Yes! But what would be the consequences? I would never go down such a road. BDSM people make consensual choices. I recall you objected when someone said that submissives must be "broken"....again, BDSM is not done by force or manipulation. Men can be broken in the process of being play-role Doms as well. Returning to my acquaintance, he admitted that it is possible he could eventually enjoy pissing on a women. But if that happened, this guy was adament that he could never respect that woman again.

Again, yes, this is all based on my theory that there is a discontinuity where people are either normal or deviant. But you see me with my statistics and whatnot, and I believe this is a real phenomenon I have observed. Doms (at least me) have a way of straddling that line where we can sincerely be both normal and devious in a relationship. Remember that non-consent is a very serious proposition. Perhaps he has gone as far as he can because he does not want to let go of the normal side.

I am not spending hours carefully crafting a perfect response, but these are my genuine thoughts so if they are not appreciated then just fling back some insults at me and let it go. We can share this forum and not carry a grudge from thread to thread. Regardless, good luck with things!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Ok, this seems to me a more reasoned response and I can reply to. (That didn't come out exactly as I'm thinking it but is best I can do right now.) It felt more direct, and cleaner. And it gives me some idea as to where the misunderstandings came in, without feeling attacked. (Don't know if I'm explaining the diff on why this doesn't come off as an attack and the other did, and depending on what affect you were meaning to have, it may not matter to you, of course.)

In any case, to respond to the content, rather than style (it can be amazingly hard to get past How something is said, sometimes), while we may just agree to disagree on overall philosophy of how people and deviancy works, there are some points you missed.

"near the beginning you say non-consent desires were kept a secret from him."
Nope, never said that. He knew, he just didn't get it that that's virtually All I fantasize about. I told him, but it's not something he wanted to hear, or something I wanted to tell him -- just thought he Should know -- and I find it deeply shameful so admittedly didn't push the point. We both avoided that particular hard truth a bit.

"You list all of the things he doesn't do for you."
Huh? You mean things he doesnt' want to do? If I listed that somewhere, it was to give an idea of what his limits are so that I could get help coming up with something else.

" You say you don't even know if it is possible for him to please you."
Yeah, how Could I know? There have been moments, but not knowing what I want or whether he's just going along with this right now until he gets bored, I really can't know. It Feels like it's more of a communication problem -- that it's new territory for us both but in different ways, but.... I'll deal with that when I get there. When it's more clear. There are always forms of pleasing onesself -- videos, do-it-yourself techniques, and I would have welcomed those. (See how much better communication gets when you say it straight? It helps me think more clearly. Thank you. I had't even Thought of videos for some reason, until trying to answer this question from you. That helped.)

"You have experimented enough to know if he has an inner-Dom ready to spring up out of nowhere. He doesn't. It is play-acting."
Nope. Not true. He certainly does. And it's not out of nowhere. I'm only just recognizing that. He's a major laid-back control freak. heh heh My driving record is better than his, yet he also Has to drive. In 23 years I've never driven him anywhere because he's gotta. He'd drive the damn airplane if he could. And the roller-coaster. (which is another clue. I'm perfectly comfortable letting the other person driving, trusting them to know what they're doing even when I shouldn't. And I love roller coasters. He hates them.) He's not one to playact.

" In another post, you had said that he had teased you that he would have his way. Etc. And for the big finale, he had vanilla sex in mind! "
I just thought this was cute. Frustrating but cute. The idea was, and has been, for us to find things that please us both. For instance, turns out he Really likes to do that 'word-activated sextoy' thing. (Tho maybe I should call it 'word activated Live Nude Girl' as we both hold off from touching -- it's more of a show.) Only figured it out because of taking what we both like into the mix and putting it together. I love words, he loves to watch, waiting can be hot to both of us. It doesn't fit the bdsm label but so what? For me it's about my willingness to do whatever he wants while he watches. And he loves that control, so same thing there.

ooopss not done, be back. hubby has to get on computer. Back.

"You are trying to introduce power-exchange into what has been a successful vanilla marriage. The risks are described as being greater than the rewards."

You say This, then you say give it up or get out of the marriage. This isn't a game to me. I wouldn't be going to all this trouble on a whim that is easily giveupable for Another 23 years. Putting off what I want for 23 years, in the hopes that my feelings would change or go away on their own, should give you some ideas of how 'lightly' I take my marriage. Or do you think I've remained in a marriage for 23 years having vanilla sex while fantasizing on something at the opposite end of the spectrum lightly or out of inertia or something?

Btw, I've always felt that people who just know either my husband or me and meet the other one often wonder what the heck we are doing with each other. He says that his friends Don't really wonder wonder why he puts up with my, er, strong-mindedness because I'm such a babe D ) -- but what they don't get, what he's also told me, is that He would be So bored with a mild-mannered lass -- the subby type you'd probably prefer. And I get asked how can I stand to be married to such a saint, to which the proper response is, 'you'd have to be a saint to put up with me. Lucky we found each other, huh? Actually, I've found many guys are eager to put up with me -- but my husband is the only person I've ever found that I never get tired of. Even if I wasn't in love with him.

" "Hey, I am a Dom and I want to explore non-consent with my wife. I love her but she is as vanilla as a cup of milk. How can I get her to satisfy my needs?" We can only speculate about what sort of heated replies might be given to such a question."

Never said he was as vanilla as a cup of milk. While his porn pref, for instance, is kissing and partially clothed women in white cotton (which is Far more vanilla than most guys, I'd guess) right from the start we explored all kinds of stuff together. (light bondage, outdoor sex where we could get caught, anal, etc). He likes to play.
And how I can 'get' him to satisfy my needs isn't exactly the question. More like how can i get my needs met within the parameters of this situation and with a willing partner. (Willing to try stuff and see if he likes it.) There is always the problem of 'getting' one's needs met in any relationship. Especially one where you were quite young when you met.

"Again, you are scrambling up a love marriage and that can have fallout. I recently confessed to an acquaintance my involvement in BDSM. They had some questions and at one point it was asked: "How can you piss on her face at night and give her a smiling kiss in the morning?" There is a balance inside natural Doms. I can get satisfaction from humiliation and gentle affection. Not everyone can retain such perspectives. Yes, you can take a vanilla guy and through rituals retrain him to be more sadistic. But he will also become desensitized from enjoying the moments of light affection. Only a natural can hold onto both things at once."
I'm hoping he'll read this and give me his perspective but he strikes me as being a remarkably balanced guy in lots of ways. Never had a problem doing kinky stuff and still enjoying the loving stuff too. Maybe partly because I don't think he has his ego or self-image tied up in that part of it, and I don't think he recognizes social norms and taboos as being 'right.' There's just what he likes and what he doesn't like. As long as no one is being truly non-consented against, he doesn't care. He's not at All into right and wrong as concepts anyway -- more like kind and fair versus non.

"Can I take a vanilla woman and train her to take beatings? Yes! Even enjoy the beatings? Yes! But what would be the consequences? I would never go down such a road. BDSM people make consensual choices. I recall you objected when someone said that submissives must be "broken"....again, BDSM is not done by force or manipulation. Men can be broken in the process of being play-role Doms as well. Returning to my acquaintance, he admitted that it is possible he could eventually enjoy pissing on a women. But if that happened, this guy was adament that he could never respect that woman again."
Knew this one might come up, so should have been more clear. Certainly there is no force here, not physical anyway. Manipulation? Well not without his knowledge. No mickies in his drink or anything. In fact he regularly comes by and reads what i post. Partly to check up on me, and partly because he can. But we don't talk about this, as he's not a guy who likes to talk about feelings and such. Considers it major torture in fact, so one reason I'm here, to get ideas for stuff to Do. He likes to Do stuff. I don't think he's 'breakable' in the way you mean -- he's a pretty independent guy and takes care of himself. Have I ever gotten him to do something he didn't want to do sexually? Nope. Don't think so. (still not explaining this one well, either. feel free to ask.) Oh yeah, there Is something. I more or less manipulated, insisted etcetera that he learn how to french kiss many years ago. I'm pretty sure he likes it now or he wouldn't keep doing it -- or at least he likes my reaction to it. I don't think he's 'broken' though.

"But you see me with my statistics and whatnot, and I believe this is a real phenomenon I have observed." What statistics?

"Remember that non-consent is a very serious proposition. Perhaps he has gone as far as he can because he does not want to let go of the normal side."
He's a pretty flexible guy. Innately, from what I can tell. More so than any guy I've ever met. And he doesn't seem to have a problem with non-consent with me, just with me telling him it's non-consent. He's perfectly happy to do his thing whether I like it or not -- just doesn't want me to tell him. Because he likes to do. To do what He wants to do. He's not trying to get a response out of me one way or another. That's just a bonus. (I know I'm not explaining this very well. Might have to come back to it. He'd be the last guy in the world to purposely rape somebody. But... if I want him to jump me or whatever, hey no problem. Not sure he exactly has a normal side in the way you mean. Or a kinky side.)

You see, there is a lot you didn't know (and a lot you still dont.) I thought I had enough credibility by now as a thinking person, to have people willing to ask questions and not just assume I'm full of shit, don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to my own life, and basically telling me I shouldn't be asking what I'm asking. Why not take me at my word that I know why I'm asking it and deal with the question?

"We can share this forum and not carry a grudge from thread to thread. " Wasn't carrying a grudge, just wanted a response, or at least to give you that way to deal think about me so you wouldn't sound so pissed off -- felt the perspective of thinking of me as a Domme (who demands to be treated as a sub) might make sense to you, and allow you, and others, to get past having to either stretch their definition of subs farther than you want to, or condemn me (as being improper, or outside the pale). Just another way to look at how we respond to each other based on labels.

Most people are a pretty mixed bag. Don't be so quick to assume it's all so simple or that what you've heard before (how to turn vanilla into choc) means exactly the same as it did last time, anymore than when someone calls themselves slave or sub, domme or master it means exactly what the last person meant by the same term.

 

[lovelylisa]

I'm sorry if I missed this from the other posts, but do you think it's a possibility that he's interested but too scared of his own feelings?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Hi Lisa,

I can't believe you made it thru all those long posts! You deserve roses just for that.

Turns out, well, I wasn't gonna post about this yet because I'm still waiting to be sure whether it continues but.... the night he read my last post, he uh (don't know why I'm suddenly getting so bashful about this) had quite a time with me. Like he was suddenly my Dream Dom come true, yet seemed just like himself, very There, very into it, tuned in, kind of ruthless etc

Thought about posting a new thread called 'houston we have liftoff' and just making it be a dancing banana smilie!

We haven't talked about it a lot since because I got bashful and he's not much of a talker. He probably would Never have said a single word about it afterward, if I hadn't. When I asked him about it directly, he said that now that he knew that I didn't mind and rather liked it, and discovered he didn't mind and rather liked it, he decided to go ahead. End of discussion.

Is that funny or what - somebody who, you can probably tell, likes to talk as much as I do, married to a guy who would consider that a full, deep discussion of his feelings. But hey, it's worked for 23 years so far....