Writer's Advice

[Guest]

are almost always unnecessary. Penis length, cup size and other assorted dimensional details are a mood-killer for most readers. Find a different means of letting the reader know what is big or small or unusual - but only if it is IMPORTANT to the story.

Would she be any less interesting of a character if she was a B, instead of a D or a DD? I would hope not. Big dimensions often mean shallow characters, or worse -writers.

I disagree, the blue collar workers of America are totaly transfixed on those attributes, I think you are missing the masses and the total fixation on pure sex.

 

[cantdog]

are almost always unnecessary. Penis length, cup size and other assorted dimensional details are a mood-killer for most readers. Find a different means of letting the reader know what is big or small or unusual - but only if it is IMPORTANT to the story.

Would she be any less interesting of a character if she was a B, instead of a D or a DD? I would hope not. Big dimensions often mean shallow characters, or worse -writers.

That size shit sucks ass.

your shallow

cantdog

 

[cantdog]

The one I see all the godblessed time is a complete sexual history as the character is introduced. With measurements, too, sometimes, and an indication whether the character works out. And it turns out to be completely superfluous, because none of that matters a whit in most cases, not to the story.

I also see belabored, action-by-action, right-hand-does-this-while-left-does-that description, particularly in the sex scene. I think that's a universal newbie mistake, trying to convey every single action.

The examples are bad, but I think the reason they are bad, in the end, is that they are extraneous distractions. They add little or nothing and they bog down the story something fierce. My adverbs are usually disguised as verbals or prepositional phrases, but I use adverbs. With a will, if not willingly.

 

[Guest]

Once again I see your lack of connection with the masses of people who only want to stroke it. For Christ sake read the stats and get a clue, this is not your personal vehicle to literary greatness. Give me a break……who do you think you are? Gods gift to literature? The problem in lit is those who think they are author’s of great works……..sheeze wake up! You pen porn………..PORN! No matter how you justify it will never win you a Nobel prize. Trying to make it great is your greatest down fall.

Jmt

 

[cantdog]

Okay, jmt, you have no use for a writer's thread. I hear ya.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Once again I see your lack of connection with the masses of people who only want to stroke it. For Christ sake read the stats and get a clue, this is not your personal vehicle to literary greatness. Give me a break……who do you think you are? Gods gift to literature? The problem in lit is those who think they are author’s of great works……..sheeze wake up! You pen porn………..PORN! No matter how you justify it will never win you a Nobel prize. Trying to make it great is your greatest down fall.

Jmt

JMT,

You, along with everyone else is entitled to their own opinion, of course. That includes the subject of writing. But I was just curious, you claim CantDog is out of touch with the masses. What credentials do you have to judge him and to speak for the masses?

Rumple Foreskin

 

[cantdog]

I don't think he's after me, Rumple. Just everyone who would care about how to write in the usual sense that phrase is meant. His condemnation seems to be general. He proposes that stroke is a special case with special rules of its own.

 

[cantdog]

Besides, I am clearly out of touch with the masses, personally. Have been since I quit watching the tube and working in a firehouse.

 

[Singularity]

Sizing Up The Audience

I'll agree with jmt that there is a great appetite for stroke stories that emphasize sizes and anatomical details among the readership, and that pure sexual-heat vignettes often do well in the voting.

But there is also a significant population of readers who wish for a bit of bread wrapped around the orgasmic meat of their sandwich. And to those, "size does matter" and usually in a negative way. As a generalization, I'll say that the female readers are a lot less tape-measure oriented than many of us knuckle-draggers.

I think an excellent stroker can appeal to both audiences, if it is well written; but you do have to decide who your target audience is, too. All of the "how-to" advice gathered here is only as good as the context in which it is applied. Writers are like marketers - they have to decide who they are selling/writing for and then give that customer segment what they want to capture and retain their interest.

So beyond all the structural and syntax and POV and "show, don't tell" dictums, knowing who you are writing for (besides yourself) is just as important as the mechanics of putting coherent words together in the right sequence. We're all writing for someone besides our own eyeballs here, and knowing how to connect with those you want to touch is equally importnat as the technical writing skills.

So in other words, adjust your aim depending on what you're trying to hit.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Sin,

Each writer should handle discription in whatever form seems to work best for them. It isn't a matter of right or wrong, but what works. No one I know of suggests dimensions aren't important in porn and shouldn't be mentioned. However, many Lit writers have come to feel that to just give precise measurements feels clinical and unrealistic.

Many times, a novice writer will have a first person narrator say something like, "She was 5'10, a blonde goddess with fantastic, 44 DD, boobs." Of course the obvious question is, how does he know these exact measurements.? Truth be told, most of us married guys couldn't give you our wife's measurements, much less some female we've only seen dressed.

Instead of statistics, why not describe her height and build? I have no idea what Pamela Anderson's exact current measurements are, and wouldn't care if we met on a topless beach. Knowing me, I'd be cool and suave and say something like, "Wa, wa, wa, wa."

It is harder to describe what Ms PA or any other person looks like than it is to just give their "vital" statistics. But many writers believe it makes the scene sexier. If you or jmt don't, then do it your way. After all, it's your story.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[KarenAM]

Writing advice? Here's what I've tried, for better or worse:

1. Read great writers. Read them a lot, and read a lot of them. Learn to read them critically and analytically. Learn why they are great.

2. Learn the rules of style, grammar, point of view, etc. that get talked about in critique groups and how-to books, and then learn how to break them. When you can write author-intrusive passive 2nd person flashbacks within flashbacks, and write them well, you'll have made it, because if you can write that, you can write anything.

Now stop reading my inane blather and go write something.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Writing advice? Here's what I've tried, for better or worse:

1. Read great writers. Read them a lot, and read a lot of them. Learn to read them critically and analytically. Learn why they are great.

2. Learn the rules of style, grammar, point of view, etc. that get talked about in critique groups and how-to books, and then learn how to break them. When you can write author-intrusive passive 2nd person flashbacks within flashbacks, and write them well, you'll have made it, because if you can write that, you can write anything.

Now stop reading my inane blather and go write something.

I agree wholeheartedly with 1 but not 2.

I love to read the great writers, and by reading them critically and analytically I can lean lots, and do. There is a line I will not cross, most of my reading is done for my pleasure and entertainment. I love to learn anything and everything and even learn to improve my own writing while reading, but I have to enjoy what I am reading.

Most people on this thread have attempted to lump all readers into a stroke group or other group, or identify specific groups of readers. I have been finding all readers to be individuals, perhaps leaning towards or searching within a category, but with wildly diverse ideas and interests in that category. So trying to shoot someone down for wanting to write good porn is senseless. It isn't good porn if it isn't well written.

I love to read a well-written story, I know a good author has taken a good idea which I am interested in and carried ME, into HIS story, because he is a good writer. I may not be able to identify each thing he did well, or how he did it better than another author may have, but I also know my reading interests may vary wildly from the next reader. So he is an author I like, and I am a reader he likes.

Stupid blather "huge 19 inch cocks rammin wet cunts" just doesn't interest me even when all I want is a stroke story. If it is well written and intelligently put together than I may continue, but porn writing is writing, and has to be good for me to keep reading.

I have an friend/editor, maybe I shouldn't listen but I do. To write for this site, and the diverse individual readers, on an x-rated site, I often agree with less writing of locations, weather and imagery, and more head-bangin fuckin. But the weather, location and imagery have to be there to get the reader to the head-bangin sex. So I edit lots of imagery, and add lots of sex, and hope to come out with what I would like, a wellwritten but hot as hell story with lots of sex.



On number 2, when I get to the 2nd person flashbacks within flashbacks I throw the book in the trashcan. Not because it isn't well written, but because I don't want that. I am not reading to get a headache, I don't want to work for this story, I want entertainment.

I would never attempt to write something like that.

My reading varies from sci-fi- to historical documentaries and heavily into everything in-between. I may not be a good writer, but I am a very good reader, and I know what I like.

OMGosh, talk about inane blather, ooops.

 

[shereads]

Start.

 

[wishfulthinking]

Know and accept (and eventually overcome ) your weaknesses. As Kassiana said,

If you know you're weak on spelling or grammar, get a proofreader.

Zoot: half-empty bottle of booze on the kitchen table

I'm going to take this out of context and twist your meaning to say that I think authors need to draw a line between detail and irrelevant info. For example, if X later grabbed that bottle and poured it over Y's chest and belly and licked it off, then that is detail. If they move to another room, people will be left wondering and not focusing on where the story is going.

BS: Start with action, not backstory or philosophy

I hate backstory, mostly because it is done in a dry manner, and does not add much to the story. If done right

Also, read dialogue out loud.

JMT: Do we all speak perfect grammar? in normal conversation?

I think that is the point, dialogue shouldn't read like a textbook, but be realistic, even if it is "oh yeah, oh fuck yeah, oh...fuch...yeah!"

JMT: Give me a break……who do you think you are? Gods gift to literature? The problem in lit is those who think they are author’s of great works……..sheeze wake up! You pen porn………..PORN! No matter how you justify it will never win you a Nobel prize. Trying to make it great is your greatest down fall.

As BS said, good writing is good writing. Porn makes money like any other genre, why should it be treated any less seriously?

 

[TheEarl]

I tend to disregard most of these rules and do what feels right in the context of what I am writing.

I don't like to include action in dialogue-line paragraphs in general, because it breaks the flow and cleanness of the dialogue, for one, and because actions have a natural predisposition to spill to characters other than the one that is talking. This is a general principle, but one that I will break without a second thought if I feel I need to.

If I want to add a short pause in a character's speech, and if graphic signs aren't enough to mark that pause in an appropriate way, I will interrupt it with an action. Whether everything (speech1+action+speech2) will be condensed in one paragraph or broken in three, depends on the emphasis I want to place on the pause.

Your (second) example felt inelegant to me, because the action imposes itself on the dialogue. It is pervasive and an obvious ploy to avoid tags. If I have to use an action in a dialogue paragraph, it is highly unlikely that it will be anywhere near as long as the portion of text in quotation marks, or that it will happen three times in a row.

Interesting. My example was a little bit forced as I wanted to demonstrate my point in every sentence. I'd normally use it just enough to convey who was speaking when. That bit may've been a little inelegant, but you'd be amazed how many character traits can be displayed through simple use of actions there and how it can actually progress the story onwards. Interesting to hear how someone else does it though.

This is two people, with a pointer that signals who is talking... the 'cigarette' stuff.

Here's the problem.

Six people around a table having a real conversation; interruptions, shouting, talking over each other. To do it your way requires the writer to jump through hoops to keep the pointers active.

This makes for a lot of unnecessary content where "Jason said... Elizabeth said... Robert said... Jason replied... Pamela asked... Elizabeth said..." keeps the reader focussed on the important thing 'the conversation' AND makes the conversation easy to track.

With two people, your way is doable.

With more than two... you're making it more difficult on yourself.

Sincerely,
ElSol

That's a very good point and not one that I've considered. My stories do tend to be character-light and I think the most people I've had in a conversation in one of my stories has been 4. In that case, I would resort to dialogue tags, but only where absolutely necessary.

The Earl

 

[shereads]

Trying to make it great is your greatest down fall.

As a reader, I'd say the greatest downfall of a writer is choosing to settle for the bottom-feeders as an audience.

Pornography, like everything else, is bottom-heavy with mediocrity. So what? There's nothing about sex as a topic that prohibits great writing.

The fact that there's no Booker Prize for porn says more about political correctness in the publishing business than it does about the existence of great erotica.

No doubt, it's easier for a sloppy porn writer to find readers than it would be for a sloppy writer of just about anything else. That just means that those of us with more discerning tastes have to look harder to find the good stuff. Like sifting gravel to find gold nuggets, it's a tough job but somebody has to do it.

As a connoisseur of dirty stories, I'm grateful for the preponderance of slipshod work - because there are a number of writers here who freely admit they might never have started writing if porn hadn't looked so easy. A few of them have produced work of such emotional depth that it would be worth reading even without the explicit sex scenes that Lit readers expect. They didn't achieve that by writing down to the "masses of people who only want to stroke it." In fact, they probably risk losing some readers whenever they produce something exceptional. Not everybody who reads porn actually likes to read.

But some of us do like to read. We like to read, and we like to squirm a little when we read. Our needs are satisfied by only the most potent talent wielded with a deft hand.

Is it warm in here?

I live in fear that my favorite Literotica writers will someday fall victim to the belief that they have to leave erotica behind in order to grow. Nothing against vanilla literature, but personally, I would have liked Moby Dick better if Ishmael had been narrating from a bed in a seedy Nantucket brothel.


[/threadjack]

 

[scheherazade_79]

When you get a bad case of writer's block, put the story on the back burner for a while and just experiment writing about characters in various situations. How they might act if they were arrested, or just relaxing at home on their own, or at a posh cocktail party etc. Some of the scenarios might give you ideas for your current story or a future story. Equally, they might not - but you're guaranteed to discover a lot more about your character, which will give them more of a 3D feel when they feature in your story.

 

[elsol]

*sigh*

ElSol's Advice on Writing

a) Do not begin with 'well-intentioned' advice.

First write, then make yourself a better writer.

At some point, you're going to have to get behind the wheel. Why not see if you're comfortable in it; you don't have to start the car, but spinning the steering wheel a little and making *vroom* noises is okay.

The things ElSol Has Learned Through Writing About HIS Writing

1) Do not begin with an epic (novel): the first guy to run a marathon... died.

I'm sure some people have the willpower, heart, and lungs to get off their lazy asses and run 26 miles or write a novel; but if you had to bet your house, would you put your money on Mister McDonald's for lunch and dinner making it to the finish line?

2) Good writing is not in the creation, but in the editing.

3) Learn to edit your own work.

4) Have someone else edit for you -- this is in addition to the editing you do.

Things ElSol Has Had To Pound Into Submission In His Writing

1) Single sentence paragraphs.

These are meant for emphasis, but I used them like they were coming out of a machine-gun instead of a pen. It made for a story where the reader could tell I was TRYING to write.

2) Using the word 'that' instead of who or which.

The girl that slapped Monica was at the mall on Saturday.
The girl who slapped Monica was at the mall on Saturday.

Replacing 'who' or 'which' with 'that'... makes 'that' more common in your writing; almost as common as a period.

3) Using the word 'that' unnecessarily.

The reason that I slapped Monica was....
The reason I slapped Monica was...

4) The word 'with' is a trap.

The sentence:
"I can be philosophical about it now, but sometimes I still think of how it could have been with bitterness."

Technically... this sentence should be read:
"I wonder how this would have been if I had acted with bitterness the whole time..."

What I meant was:
'think with bitterness'

Try not to separate 'with' from the thing it's modifying.

I can be philosophical about it now, but sometimes I still think, with bitterness, of how it could have been.

5) If you've gone through your editing process-- then the light bulbs goes *TWINK* and you add/change content.

You must go through your editing process for AT LEAST the content that you added. Along with content, you added mistakes.

6) To borrow from a much better writer than myself, kill your babies!

Even in 'flowery, lengthy descriptions' control must be exercised.

Stories move forward; sometimes at a lazy southern summer noon pace but still forward, even the sex should advance the story.

Just because you wrote 19 pages of 'great' content'... doesn't mean it's works great with the rest of your story.

7) www.dictionary.com (the thesaurus section)

ElSol's Opinion About Narration

a) Third person narrators, outside the Watson POV's, do not have opinions.

If they do, it is the writer's opinion... and the writer has TOLD rather than SHOWN.

This is what I believe the whole "Show, don't Tell" thing points to.

b) The most important personality in a first person narrated story is the narrator's.

The object in a first narrated story is not to make the reader 'believe' they are the main character... but to place the reader in the ultimate voyeur's position, inside someone else's mind.

In most cases, it is an automatic death sentence for a first person story if the narrator is not invested with personality.

----

And if you read all of this, you wasted 5 minutes since I could only tell you about MY problems, not YOURS.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[shereads]

But there is also a significant population of readers who wish for a bit of bread wrapped around the orgasmic meat of their sandwich.

Yikes.

 

[elsol]

That's a very good point and not one that I've considered. My stories do tend to be character-light and I think the most people I've had in a conversation in one of my stories has been 4. In that case, I would resort to dialogue tags, but only where absolutely necessary.

The Earl

Yeap; I write mostly MFF stuff... at least dialogue is easier to keep straight than whose hand is on whose left breast... (Wait, David has breasts!)

*sigh*

Also I use dialogue for a LOT of exposition (impact character abuser that I am), therefore I live and die by not letting the reader be distracted from the conversation.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[elsol]

As to trying to make it make it great being a downfall...

If I have written good porn (and opinions vary on the issue), it is because I was trying to write great porn. I shudder to think the shit I would have produced if I was aiming any lower.

Actually, I don't have to imagine... I've read my first drafts.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Black Tulip]

Wow, this thread has been growing like mad since it was started.
Some very interesting additions too.

I will certainly put the links from Impressive into my favorites. They will be very useful for keeping characters under control. LOL

Like many others have already said (hehehe) rules can be broken.

I found I nearly always have something about the light at the start of a story. Usually in relation to the weather. I will not change that. Hmpfff.
Imagine Rembrandt had listened when he was being told to quit painting those silly beams of light into his paintings.
Maybe it's Dutch to notice the light? I even decide which house to live in by taking into account how the sunlight streams through the windows.

That brings me to something else. If I would listen to JMT I'd better stop writing this instant. I never can or will know what's in the mind of the American blue-collar worker. It's no use for me to aim at the masses he's talking about because they are totally alien to me.

My writing is influenced mainly by reading heaps of Dutch literature. None of you will have heard about those writers. But my stories are mostly rated in the pleasant H range.
Not thousands of readers or hundreds of votes, but enough to make me think there are more than enough readers on this site who want to read an interesting story first and get excited or tickled as a bonus after.

In my opinion that has nothing to do with being a blue-collar worker or not. It only says something about the willingness to get carried away by the imagination of a writer. You can find that openness in all levels of society. Just as you can find closed and rigid minds all over. Including fairly intelligent people on a porn site.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Is sex not sex?

Do we all speak perfect grammar? in normal conversation?

I think you forget the level of the reader.........stroke factor is the driving force...... is it not?

I sit around the house in dirty jeans and a tee shirt, but when I go out I dress. I think publishing sloppy stuff is embarrassing and insulting.

Stroke factor isn't the driving force for me. I want to write stuff that'll pick people up and shake them till their molars rattle. I put the sex in so they have something to do while I close my hands on their throats.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I want to write stuff that'll pick people up and shake them till their molars rattle. I put the sex in so they have something to do while I close my hands on their throats.

Can I save this for future reference? Very quotable.

 

[Liar]

a) Third person narrators, outside the Watson POV's, do not have opinions.

Isn't Watson first person?

#L