Writer's Advice

[impressive]

3. Never use a verb other than “said” to carry dialogue.

The line of dialogue belongs to the character; the verb is the writer sticking his nose in. But said is far less intrusive than grumbled, gasped, cautioned, lied. I once noticed Mary McCarthy ending a line of dialogue with “she asseverated,” and had to stop reading to get the dictionary.

4. Never use an adverb to modify the verb “said” . . .

. . . he admonished gravely. To use an adverb this way (or almost any way) is a mortal sin. The writer is now exposing himself in earnest, using a word that distracts and can interrupt the rhythm of the exchange. I have a character in one of my books tell how she used to write historical romances “full of rape and adverbs.”

I find these two contradictory. Either I write:

"Cover your eyes," Sheila whispered.

... or I write:

"Cover your eyes," Sheila said softly.

If the more descriptive verb is not used, then the adverb is almost necessary. Alternatively, I could use a prepositional phrase:

"Cover your eyes," Sheila said in a whisper.

... which just sounds stupid to me.

(Of course "whispered softly" is just redundant redundant.)

So shoot me.

 

[TheEarl]

I find these two contradictory. Either I write:

"Cover your eyes," Sheila whispered.

... or I write:

"Cover your eyes," Sheila said softly.

If the more descriptive verb is not used, then the adverb is almost necessary. Alternatively, I could use a prepositional phrase:

"Cover your eyes," Sheila said in a whisper.

... which just sounds stupid to me.



So shoot me.

I'm going to have to disagree with Leonard as well, but on different grounds. I dislike said. I see it as a waste of a word. If it's in speechmarks, then it's dialogue, so we don't need to be told 'he said, she said'.

I'd say the only reasons for dialogue tags are if you want to add a particular stress to the way a word has been spoken (whispered, growled, etc) or if you need to remind your reader who is talking. And I find the latter can be more elegantly done with an action.

"What the hell are you saying?" Kelly flicked open the cigarette packet with a tapered finger and drew a stick out.

I think dialogue tags as a species should be kept to minimum.

And I think I've just given big clues to anyone who wants to try and guess me in future Voice challenges.

The Earl

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'm going to have to disagree with Leonard as well, but on different grounds. I dislike said. I see it as a waste of a word. If it's in speechmarks, then it's dialogue, so we don't need to be told 'he said, she said'.

I'd say the only reasons for dialogue tags are if you want to add a particular stress to the way a word has been spoken (whispered, growled, etc) or if you need to remind your reader who is talking. And I find the latter can be more elegantly done with an action.

"What the hell are you saying?" Kelly flicked open the cigarette packet with a tapered finger and drew a stick out.

I think dialogue tags as a species should be kept to minimum.

I believe the point was that actions don't belong in dialogue tags. A far more elegant and correct way of re-writing your example would be:


"What the hell are you saying, John?"

Kelly flicked open the cigarette packet with a tapered finger and drew a stick out.


That way, both you and Leonard can be happy.

 

[TheEarl]

I believe the point was that actions don't belong in dialogue tags. A far more elegant and correct way of re-writing your example would be:


"What the hell are you saying, John?"

Kelly flicked open the cigarette packet with a tapered finger and drew a stick out.


That way, both you and Leonard can be happy.

Okay, mine was a bad example of what I meant. The question added abiguity; the "Kelly flicked open the..." is not a dialogue tag, but an action that's in the same paragraph. It was confused by the fact that I gave Kelly a question and the the question mark made it unclear as to whether the next sentence was separate or a dialogue tag.

Better example:
"This is bullshit." Kelly flicked open the cigarette packet with a tapered finger and drew a stick out.

John sighed. "Do you have to smoke in here?"

Kelly struck a match against the table and held it to the end of her fag. "Yes. I do. Now what the fuck were you talking about?"

You understand who's talking at all times and there's no need to resort to any kind of dialogue tags.

The Earl

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Earl and Imp,

The valid points you both raise are why I always call them guidelines.

The "said" deal is echoed by many other writers, including Stephen King, but not by all of them.

As for the two tags Imp mentioned; I suppose the alternative is to describe the voice, something like, "Cover your eyes." Sheila's voice was soft, yet tinged with urgency.

That's all fine and good, I suppose. But too much of that could slow the pace. What King and Leonard want writers to avoid is using tags to "show" instead of "tell". But it's each writer's call.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[TheEarl]

Earl and Imp,

The valid points you both raise are why I always call them guidelines.

The "said" deal is echoed by many other writers, including Stephen King, both not all of them.

As for the two tags Imp mentioned; I suppose the alternative is to describe the voice, something like, "Cover your eyes." Sheila's voice was soft, yet tinged with urgency.

That's all fine and good, I suppose. But too much of that could slow the pace. What King and Leonard want writers to avoid is using tags to "show" instead of "tell". But it's each writer's call.

Rumple Foreskin

Yeah, I have to say I agree with not using 'growled', 'whispered', 'grinned', etc every time. I just say that said is waaay overused and on most occasions it's completely unnecessary.

The Earl

 

[impressive]

nevermind

 

[Guest]

Is sex not sex?

Do we all speak perfect grammar? in normal conversation?

I think you forget the level of the reader.........stroke factor is the driving force...... is it not?

Jmt

Don't correct the above words on penalty of death.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Yeah, I have to say I agree with not using 'growled', 'whispered', 'grinned', etc every time. I just say that said is waaay overused and on most occasions it's completely unnecessary.

The Earl

I agree. IMHO, there are many more cases of tags being overused than tags needing to be added. BUT, that applies to all tags, not just "said." I think the theory with "said" is they become an icon that aren't read, or consciously even noticed by the reader, but serve to tell him who is talking w/o slowing the pace of the dialogue.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Okay, mine was a bad example of what I meant. The question added abiguity; the "Kelly flicked open the..." is not a dialogue tag, but an action that's in the same paragraph. It was confused by the fact that I gave Kelly a question and the the question mark made it unclear as to whether the next sentence was separate or a dialogue tag.

I knew what you meant. I still think that it's much more elegant, correct, and truthful if you purge dialogue paragraphs of everything not-dialogue. Your "better example" is exactly the same as the previous example on that matter.

 

[Rubyb]

Wow - great thread. Thanks everyone for contributing. A nice list of rules and I do believe that some are meant to be broken.

Here's a few more:

In an erotic scene, not everyone gets to "cum" everytime. They don't always "cum" together, either.
Men need to recover, women need to breathe, bodies need to rest.

If you try to force your characters to take a particular action and it goes against the definition of the character, his/her morals, etc, then nobody is satisfied. It can make for great plot complications, but that character then has to deal with those actions.

It's okay to let your characters run away with the story if it takes you and the readers down a better path that you had planned.

If you don't enjoy and get lost in your own story, neither will your readers.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

nevermind

Chickenshit. Good thing I have the email notification thing turned on.

 

[TheEarl]

I knew what you meant. I still think that it's much more elegant, correct, and truthful if you purge dialogue paragraphs of everything not-dialogue. Your "better example" is exactly the same as the previous example on that matter.

Okay, then I misread you. I thought you were thinking that my action sentence was a dialogue tag (and if the dialogue hadn't been a question, it would've finished in a comma) and that was what I was trying to clarify. However my clarification made nothing clearer .

JOI: Why do you think it is better to separate dialogue and not-dialogue? How do you add pauses (without saying "She paused," obviously) in the middle of a character's dialogue if not with an action sentence?

The Earl

 

[Lisa Denton]

Oh, but first, the very best advice:


Write it!


(then do the above )

MY New Story

Poor lil carsonshepherd lay tied up naked on the bed, it was almost dawn when he came to, and he had a terrible hangover. Lisa had got him drunk on 2 beers (whimp) and tied him up after he passed out.

He saw her coming towards him and he was scared, she looked really mean and was hiding something behind her back. He could smell his own fear, and felt as if he was in a hell from which he might never recover.

Carsonsheperd beggeg her "Please don't do this Lisa, I'm gay."
She laughed and said "So am I."

He remembered she wrote toy stories and the fear became even more intense and showed in his eyes.

"What is that behind your back Lisa, sex toys?" he croaked.
She laughed again and showed him her whip "You are the sex toy carson."

Carsonsheperd passed out, so the story had to end (Gosh, I was likin it)



EDITED TO ADD: Oooops, this was done without no editing.

 

[Lisa Denton]

See what I mean, I needed to edit, edit, edit, on that little bit, uh, not carsonsheperd's little bit, but what I wrote.

 

[BlackShanglan]

If I write in scenes and always from the point of view of a particular character—the one whose view best brings the scene to life—I’m able to concentrate on the voices of the characters telling you who they are and how they feel about what they see and what’s going on, and I’m nowhere in sight.

That's a great comment on the importance of voiced narrative and descriptions. I think that's one of the most common things I end up saying when editing or reviewing stories - too many passages where the point of view and voice are unclear or undirected. While it's possible to write from a completely detached omniscient thrid person that contains no trace of any character perspective, narrative voice, or commentary from the omniscient viewer, it's extremely dull. There's no one to talk to or empathize with, no emotional reaction, and no voice. I think Leonard is dead-on there.

Shanglan

 

[Lauren Hynde]

JOI: Why do you think it is better to separate dialogue and not-dialogue? How do you add pauses (without saying "She paused," obviously) in the middle of a character's dialogue if not with an action sentence?

The Earl

I tend to disregard most of these rules and do what feels right in the context of what I am writing.

I don't like to include action in dialogue-line paragraphs in general, because it breaks the flow and cleanness of the dialogue, for one, and because actions have a natural predisposition to spill to characters other than the one that is talking. This is a general principle, but one that I will break without a second thought if I feel I need to.

If I want to add a short pause in a character's speech, and if graphic signs aren't enough to mark that pause in an appropriate way, I will interrupt it with an action. Whether everything (speech1+action+speech2) will be condensed in one paragraph or broken in three, depends on the emphasis I want to place on the pause.

Your (second) example felt inelegant to me, because the action imposes itself on the dialogue. It is pervasive and an obvious ploy to avoid tags. If I have to use an action in a dialogue paragraph, it is highly unlikely that it will be anywhere near as long as the portion of text in quotation marks, or that it will happen three times in a row.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

That's a great comment on the importance of voiced narrative and descriptions. I think that's one of the most common things I end up saying when editing or reviewing stories - too many passages where the point of view and voice are unclear or undirected. While it's possible to write from a completely detached omniscient thrid person that contains no trace of any character perspective, narrative voice, or commentary from the omniscient viewer, it's extremely dull. There's no one to talk to or empathize with, no emotional reaction, and no voice. I think Leonard is dead-on there.

Shanglan

I agree, and would like to add: when you're writing a story, pick your perspective and narrative voice and stick to it.

 

[carsonshepherd]

See what I mean, I needed to edit, edit, edit, on that little bit, uh, not carsonsheperd's little bit, but what I wrote.

Bwahahahaha!

Lauren, cool av

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think you forget the level of the reader.........stroke factor is the driving force...... is it not?

I think it's not. Or rather, I think that you can make stroke less of a factor in your work by writing it that way. We're rather blessed here with a site that consciously tries to join the literary with the erotic and make room for both. Some readers and writers lean more one way, and some more another. I feel very grateful that there are those who sometimes enjoy what I write despite the fact that some of it is quite far from stroke. At the moment, in fact, my highest-rated story is the one with only one instance of sex occurring 25,000 words into the story. Here, at least, one's readers appear to be very much what one makes of them.

I actually just received an email from someone who wrote me some pleasant feedback on a different story. That reader enunciated very clearly the belief that good writing was good writing regardless of genre, and that it was important for writers to seperate the appeal that good writing creates in a story from the appeal of individual kinks and fetishes that might tantalize some readers. The reader's point was that the better story is that in which the writer has written a story that attempts to appeal to all readers on some levels, rather than to only specific readers (stroke-hunters, fetishists, etc.) on one level. I wholeheartedly concur. It's possible to appeal to those interested in stroke or a specific fetish with a few hot sex scenes strung together, but it's also possible to appeal to them with a story that does more - and that also reaches a broader audience, beyond the fetish/genre and even beyond erotica.

Shanglan

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Lauren, cool av

Even if I get caught cheating...

 

[OhMissScarlett]

"You are the sex toy, carson."

that's sigworthy.

 

[gauchecritic]

Give your characters someone to be. If you read your story and think your character could be inserted into anyone else's story then they are not a character they are a cypher.

Some methods of being: Limp from an old rugby injury. Squint like Karen Black. Having a name like Mrs Malaprop. (very useful for comedic effects). A slight lisp.

But always remember that a character never hangs by a defect.


Never start anything, never begin anything, never do anything suddenly. In fact never do anything that ends with -ly.


If you edit on the fly, good for you, but read it again once you've finished.

If you edit afterwards then write, dammit, just write til you get to the end. Then edit.

Imagery is everything, but not everything should be imagery.

 

[elsol]

Okay, mine was a bad example of what I meant. The question added abiguity; the "Kelly flicked open the..." is not a dialogue tag, but an action that's in the same paragraph. It was confused by the fact that I gave Kelly a question and the the question mark made it unclear as to whether the next sentence was separate or a dialogue tag.

Better example:
"This is bullshit." Kelly flicked open the cigarette packet with a tapered finger and drew a stick out.

John sighed. "Do you have to smoke in here?"

Kelly struck a match against the table and held it to the end of her fag. "Yes. I do. Now what the fuck were you talking about?"

You understand who's talking at all times and there's no need to resort to any kind of dialogue tags.

The Earl

This is two people, with a pointer that signals who is talking... the 'cigarette' stuff.

Here's the problem.

Six people around a table having a real conversation; interruptions, shouting, talking over each other. To do it your way requires the writer to jump through hoops to keep the pointers active.

This makes for a lot of unnecessary content where "Jason said... Elizabeth said... Robert said... Jason replied... Pamela asked... Elizabeth said..." keeps the reader focussed on the important thing 'the conversation' AND makes the conversation easy to track.

With two people, your way is doable.

With more than two... you're making it more difficult on yourself.

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[Singularity]

Tape Measures...

are almost always unnecessary. Penis length, cup size and other assorted dimensional details are a mood-killer for most readers. Find a different means of letting the reader know what is big or small or unusual - but only if it is IMPORTANT to the story.

Would she be any less interesting of a character if she was a B, instead of a D or a DD? I would hope not. Big dimensions often mean shallow characters, or worse -writers.