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Why Do People Write NC/R?

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"I mean... you literally write NC/R. You just don't put it in that category, and it's NC/R against men."

madelinemasoch said:
I never thought of it that way before.
Click to expand...

I swear this is a sincere question. I'm just not phrasing it well.

How did you think of your male characters as willing? Like NTH I only skimmed a few bits, and I see they're somewhat conflicted at times, but...can you imagine the average person experiencing that and then going, yeah, no problem, it was fine? Not a small self-selecting group that have extensively discussed and experimented with milder forms of it, but every single person, as appears to be the case in your story?

Again I apologize for the accusatory tone. You're writing fiction. I've read way more disturbing stuff. And I believe you're sincere in saying that you never thought of it that way. I just can't figure out how.
 
joy_of_cooking said:
How did you think of your male characters as willing? Like NTH I only skimmed a few bits, and I see they're somewhat conflicted at times, but...can you imagine the average person experiencing that and then going, yeah, no problem, it was fine? Not a small self-selecting group that have extensively discussed and experimented with milder forms of it, but every single person, as appears to be the case in your story?
Click to expand...
It's not that I thought of them as willing, just as somewhere on a sliding scale between resistant/defiant/deluded and (at least) tacitly complicit. Also, it is a small group we're dealing with. But to answer the question, it's because I think of NC/R as r*pe.
 
I just said this a little bit ago in the story ideas forum-not for the first time-but seeing this thread is ongoing I'm going to put it here for people to think about.

The site says it doesn't want real rape stories(unless they're in loving wives which seems to get a free pass) and they want the victim to enjoy it to take it off the hook from NC over to Reluctance. So what we get is what we're discussing with the OP, an absolutely non consensual scenario which ends with-as Joy of cooking said-yeah, that was fine. This is what the site wants.

Now, for me personally, I think its better to just allow a flat out rape fantasy. I wouldn't read or write them, its not my thing, but others like it and its in its own section so whatever floats your boat. The understanding is this is fiction, so why does it matter if its rape or rape for 10k words and words 10,001-002 are "Oh, yes!". Because by doing it the latter way of "suddenly...yay!" what that says is no never means no, and there's so much of that already being spread throughout society, does that need to be perpetuated here?

But now here's the main point. Lit doesn't allow rape stories? They have an entire category full of them. Its called mind control.

If someone is hypnotized, under a spell, under the influence of a magic ring, controlled by someone who has literal mind controlling abilities, or just drugged....they cannot give consent. For any that dispute that, why is slipping someone a roofie rape? Because....say it with me...they cannot give consent. Fact...bestiality is a crime because...animals cannot give consent.

So while we all discuss the NCR(and come on people "Literotica does not allow rape....but we have a cat called non consent...okay)category and the 'rule' etc....no one is looking at the category that is undisputable rape because its 100% non consensual.

It is what it is, and people are free to write it, read it, enjoy it or avoid it. I'm not shaming, and I'm not for censoring anything and the site can do and allow whatever they want on their site.

But FFS enough with the joke that its not allowed here, its been right here all along, but few seem clever enough to see it. Or maybe they just don't want to.

If this post gets deleted it means the site knows it too.
 
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lovecraft68 said:
You seem really focused on this being about men.
Do you get that upset when its woman? Because few ever care about that it seems, but do something to a man and OMG!!!!!!
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If you read @madelinemasoch 's stories, you'll see it never happens to women.

But for the record, yes, if someone wrote a gender-flipped version with a bunch of male doms and female subs and then said, "I've never thought of it as non-consent" I would also be baffled.
 
lovecraft68 said:
You seem really focused on this being about men.
Do you get that upset when its woman? Because few ever care about that it seems, but do something to a man and OMG!!!!!!
Click to expand...
No, he's following on from my assertion, i.e., that madelinemaosch is already writing noncon, and arguably more violent noncon in many places, but she hadn't really thought of it that way. It wasn't a gotcha (I don't think) just a "how did you not see this as noncon?" And her answer was "because she thinks of NC/R as rape."

Which... I mean, if someone is kidnapped, caged against their will, forced to watch sexual acts they don't want to see, subjected to violence as a way for someone else to get off, etc.... Whether that's done to a man or a woman, that's NC/R. I mean, that's straight up sexual assault by the statutes. I'd argue the stuff going on in those stories (cigarette burns to the genitals? Yikes!) should already go over in NC/R, probably in many cases with the "mindbreak" and "violence" tags.
 
Cagivagurl said:
Rape..... Is rape....
It a violent act it is not about sex.
Rape includes beating, broken bones, cuts bruises, STD's... Great trauma...
Talk to somebody who has been raped...
Ask them is they enjoyed it....
I wish you luck
This is not a personal attack against anu single person, or kink shaming...
I am simply saying, Rape is an act of violence against anothr human being....
Their livs could be ruined forevr... The harder they fight, the more physical harm they receive...
There is no lubrication. Women's vaginas are cut and cruised, which might destroy thir chances of having children...
That is rape....
Trying to sexualise rape is not fair to the millions of women who have their lives destroyed every year....

Cagivagurl
Click to expand...
No one is in favor of real life rape and no one thinks the victim enjoys it. But many people enjoy rape fantasies. 60% of women is a stat I've seen a lot. There is nothing wrong with these people enjoying these fantasies. It doesn't mean they want to be raped. Serving this demand, for others or one's self, is one of the reasons people write ncr. In fantasy like this, it makes perfect sense that the victim experiences pleasure from the rape. Who wants to fantasize about having a traumatic painful experience with no redeeming qualities? Maybe some people but usually a ravishment fantasy is about someone being forced to experience overwhelming pleasure. There was discussion of ravishment in another thread that was kind of productive.

A subset of ncr stories are about people becoming sex slaves. It's not much different from a bdsm story, perhaps a femdom story where the mmc is reduced to an object, kept in a cage, made to eat kibble off the floor, etc, forever. That's a kind of sex slavery, as is a story where someone has to become a sex slave to resolve their debt or avoid blackmail or whatever. No one thinks this would be pleasant in real life. These are fantasies about power, forced submission, finding one's self suddenly without the rights we all expect and take for granted irl.

Then there are people wanting to write realistic rape, the traumatic kind. Their motive may be to write a dark story with gritty subject matter, like a true crime story. Or to write about empowerment through revenge on the rapist. It may be to write about trauma they have experienced, as mentioned above. In the past, people have thought I was talking about this kind of trauma writing when I was actually only talking about ravishment fantasy. So to be clear, they are different motivations and different kinds of writing, not to be conflated. Trauma writing is not for titillation, and would be more likely to include aftermath and PTSD and not likely to include pleasure, unless it's an involuntary orgasm which the victim feels is a betrayal by their own body causing further feelings of guilt and trauma.

madelinemasoch said:
It's not that I thought of them as willing, just as somewhere on a sliding scale between resistant/defiant/deluded and (at least) tacitly complicit. Also, it is a small group we're dealing with. But to answer the question, it's because I think of NC/R as r*pe.
Click to expand...
Because it is. I don't get why it keeps popping up that people think the site doesn't allow rape. It definitely does. What they don't allow is snuff, permanent injury/maiming, or rape where the victim gets no pleasure. Ravishment, forced pleasure, is the base template. It's been the template for bodice rippers forever. But the site doesn't want torture porn, where the only point is the victim being destroyed. They want stuff someone with a rape fantasy would enjoy.
 
djrip said:
Then there are people wanting to write realistic rape, the traumatic kind. Their motive may be to write a dark story with gritty subject matter, like a true crime story. Or to write about empowerment through revenge on the rapist. It may be to write about trauma they have experienced, as mentioned above. In the past, people have thought I was talking about this kind of trauma writing when I was actually only talking about ravishment fantasy. So to be clear, they are different motivations and different kinds of writing, not to be conflated. Trauma writing is not for titillation, and would be more likely to include aftermath and PTSD and not likely to include pleasure, unless it's an involuntary orgasm which the victim feels is a betrayal by their own body causing further feelings of guilt and trauma.

I don't get why it keeps popping up that people think the site doesn't allow rape. It definitely does. What they don't allow is snuff, permanent injury/maiming, or rape where the victim gets no pleasure. Ravishment, forced pleasure, is the base template. It's been the template for bodice rippers forever. But the site doesn't want torture porn, where the only point is the victim being destroyed. They want stuff someone with a rape fantasy would enjoy.
Click to expand...
I was in the midst of making a few opinions in this vein but I doubt they would add anything new at this point.
 
NoTalentHack said:
No, he's following on from my assertion, i.e., that madelinemaosch is already writing noncon, and arguably more violent noncon in many places, but she hadn't really thought of it that way. It wasn't a gotcha (I don't think) just a "how did you not see this as noncon?" And her answer was "because she thinks of NC/R as rape."

Which... I mean, if someone is kidnapped, caged against their will, forced to watch sexual acts they don't want to see, subjected to violence as a way for someone else to get off, etc.... Whether that's done to a man or a woman, that's NC/R. I mean, that's straight up sexual assault by the statutes. I'd argue the stuff going on in those stories (cigarette burns to the genitals? Yikes!) should already go over in NC/R, probably in many cases with the "mindbreak" and "violence" tags.
Click to expand...
You are completely right, from a principled point of view.
In the sense of this whole discussion, I'll reiterate what I've already said in other threads. If all the stuff we write here has no real-world repercussions, then yeah, everything should be allowed. BTB, rape, snuff, underage, you name it. You can choose to read what you want and avoid what you don't want to read. It is as simple as that. But if the content we create here does have real-world implications, then some things are more dangerous and much more of an issue than some other stuff. Women are being raped every day in most parts of the world, while for the life of me, I can't remember the last time I heard about a guy being raped, with the exemption of prison (I seriously doubt those guys have access to Literotica though ;)). In that sense, rape stories where victims are women should be much more of an issue than vice-versa, even though rape is rape, regardless of the gender of the victim. I understand that some people hate certain themes for reasons other than the real-world implications, but I personally think those reasons are not good enough to put restrictions on freedom of speech and artistic expression.
 
Men don't admit to rape, and when they do, it isn't taken seriously. Whether it is man-on-man rape or woman-on-man doesn't matter. Especially when it is a woman raping a man, the man doesn't want to admit it. Think you taunted when a girl kicks your ass? Think how bad it would be to say she raped you?
AwkwardlySet said:
Women are being raped every day in most parts of the world, while for the life of me, I can't remember the last time I heard about a guy being raped, with the exemption of prison (I seriously doubt those guys have access to Literotica though ;)).
Click to expand...
 
1692146382623.png

I am not sure if this data covers the US only or not, but still, it is 10 to 1 anyway. It IS a much bigger issue any way you look at it.
 
This is reported abuse. It has no figures on unreported. Less than 40% of rapes (female or otherwise) are reported. You're a man, right? Will you admit if a girl rapes you?
AwkwardlySet said:
View attachment 2261791

I am not sure if this data covers the US only or not, but still, it is 10 to 1 anyway. It IS a much bigger issue any way you look at it.
Click to expand...
 
MillieDynamite said:
This is reported abuse. It has no figures on unreported. Less than 40% of rapes (female or otherwise) are reported. You're a man, right? Will you admit if a girl rapes you?
Click to expand...
Once again, you have a point. But realistically, how often does that happen? This is mostly a numbers game, and while I acknowledge that women raping men shouldn't be neglected, I don't think it comes anywhere close to the incidence of the opposite thing happening. I am simply trying to be pragmatic in the sense that we should focus on the bigger issue and put priorities.
 
It seems like we just had a long dialogue on this subject in another thread. The reality is that many people enjoy NC/R stories, just like many people like horror stories. Lovecraft just recently started a thread on horror and is, apparently, an avid consumer and supporter of that genre. I see no difference between reading horror (where people are murdered and brutalized in horrible ways) and reading rape. When I pose that challenge, nobody can respond to it and explain the difference. There is no difference. I don't accuse Lovecraft of apologizing for or supporting murder. Obviously, that's absurd. It's equally false and silly to say that people who defend the writing and reading of NC/R stories are supporting rape. Nobody here is doing that. That's exactly the kind of ad hominem attack that should be purged from these threads, IMO (and by the way, I don't think the OP's original thread qualified as an ad hominem attack, and I think it was wrongly deleted).

People like entertainment about violence and sex, and many like them mixed together. That's just the way it is. The vast majority of those people have no bad intentions and are not more likely to engage in antisocial acts. It seems to me reasonable to suppose this is especially true about Literotica, which is a place for people to indulge fantasies they wouldn't want to share with others.

It is completely fruitless and beside the point to keep harping on how rape in the real world is bad. Of course it is. That has nothing to do with what is going on here.
 
Cagivagurl said:
Rape..... Is rape....
It a violent act it is not about sex.
Rape includes beating, broken bones, cuts bruises, STD's... Great trauma...
Talk to somebody who has been raped...
Ask them is they enjoyed it....
I wish you luck
This is not a personal attack against anu single person, or kink shaming...
I am simply saying, Rape is an act of violence against anothr human being....
Their livs could be ruined forevr... The harder they fight, the more physical harm they receive...
There is no lubrication. Women's vaginas are cut and cruised, which might destroy thir chances of having children...
That is rape....
Trying to sexualise rape is not fair to the millions of women who have their lives destroyed every year....

Cagivagurl
Click to expand...

All true, but you can still write about it. You just can't post it here.
 
AwkwardlySet said:
Once again, you have a point. But realistically, how often does that happen? This is mostly a numbers game, and while I acknowledge that women raping men shouldn't be neglected, I don't think it comes anywhere close to the incidence of the opposite thing happening. I am simply trying to be pragmatic in the sense that we should focus on the bigger issue and put priorities.
Click to expand...
Men are much, much less likely to report rapes than women. It's hard to get numbers on it, but there's a big separation. Here's an article from about a decade ago: https://slate.com/human-interest/20...ually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men. The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent of rape and sexual violence victims. But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her, although they couldn’t explain the rise beyond guessing that maybe it had something to do with the publicity surrounding former football coach Jerry Sandusky and the Penn State sex abuse scandal.
Click to expand...

The 14% stat is pretty old. Men and boys massively underreported their rapes in the past. They still do, just not as much.

From this NIH study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3067991/

Four male veterans—all victims of male rape—recently presented to a Veterans Affairs (VA) outpatient clinic, providing further insight into this seldom-studied phenomenon.

A common theme emerging in treating male rape victims is a lost sense of manliness. Male victims voice their concern in reconciling their masculine identity with their experience of being raped. One patient reported that he never disclosed it to his wife of 30 years; the sense of stigma from the rape was felt as huge and devastating.

The veterans treated in this VA outpatient setting all reported a preference for a female psychiatrist and difficulty in discussing rape with a male psychiatrist. It is possible that male rape victims experience more negative counter-transference reactions from male psychiatrists. Male psychiatrists may not be free of homophobic reaction, which further hinders patients from articulating the history of the abuse.

None of the 4 victims examined disclosed his rape to any male psychiatrist by whom he was examined. One of the male victims was labeled as “malingering” in spite of 2 severe suicide attempts. The physician became frustrated by the perceived “secretiveness” of the patient and interpreted it as malingering. While patients dread the idea of disclosing the rape to a man and fear how telling would affect them, they also complained that no male psychiatrist had asked them about a possible abuse history. Treatment of rape victims should start with an exploration of our own beliefs about male rape.
Click to expand...
"If you're raped, you're less of a man." That's what literally decades, maybe centuries of American and British culture have taught. You don't talk about it, you don't report it, you move on with your life. Get revenge if you can and you can get away with it. But never tell anyone it happened. Certainly never tell anyone who could affect your job, social relationships, community standing, etc.
 
AlinaX said:
allocishet
Click to expand...
This word led me to the term cisgender, and I don't understand. It sounds like cisgender just means, a normal person that doesn't think they are something that their body isn't. Is that right?

And then, what's with this polycule thing? Holy crap, the words I've been subjected to today... I've been drinking too much for this lol...
 
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