Why are some rape stories allowed, some arent?

[cantdog]

Jefferson

As you say, dude, you are coming into us here after some days of furious discussion.

Currently, for some reason, we are interpreting rape laws. The original discussion was more along the lines you are speaking of. The first, say, two pages of this thread.

Boxlicker has been rejected here for a too-violent, too-brutal story. So have others, but in this thread you will be able to read that it happened to box. So there IS a line. The question isn't WHY. They can ban redheads if they like. Anything. We said that, too.

The question really is, where is the line? A majority of us assume it is an inconsistent line, because a human is doing it on a subjective criterion.

That said, where is the line, approximately? Lauren herself addressed the issue maybe four or five years ago. Look for the post from Old Weird. He says she was going to support rape fantasies, but not rapist fantasies. I figure because rape is not about sex, really, just about cunt.

So we discussed rape fantasies. Couple of pages worth of that. Now we're onto rape itself, the legal thing, and the meaning of the term "date rape," if it has one. Good thread. Thoughtful, interesting, articulate, and kinda insightful. Especially in the side issues. Worth a read.

cantdog

 

[Tanuki]

I hate to spoil the idea, but it is a fact of life that a LOT of women who are raped, violently, do end up having an orgasm. Their own body betrays them. The assault isn't bad enough, isn't traumatic enough to stop the woman's body from enjoying what it is DESIGNED to enjoy. The human female was designed to enjoy being penetrated by the human male, to assure the continuation of the speicies. Just like the male was designed to enjoy penetrating the female.

I think you are confusing reality with romance novels.

 

[mismused]

So much we don't know about women *Sigh!*

I hate to spoil the idea, but it is a fact of life that a LOT of women who are raped, violently, do end up having an orgasm. Their own body betrays them.

-Doffy (Aka Jefferson) [/B]

===========================

I'm not an expert on rape, and if I, or anyone else has been raped, we couldn't say that made us an expert since what applies to one isn't necessarily applicable to all others. However:

"The clitoris hates being scared or bullied. Some women who hav been raped report that their vaginas become lubricated even as they feared for their lives-- and a good thing too, for the lubrication prevented them from being ripped apart -- but women almost never have orgasms during rape, male fantasies notwithstanding. The clitoris will not be hurried or pushed."

(From: Woman, An Intimate Geography, by Natalie Angier. A most erudite book)

As you can tell, I am not a strong beleiver in this "We'll ruin our children, if we show them sex and violence on TV and in the movies" bit. I think a normal, well adjusted child could watch pretty much ANYTHING on TV or in the movies and understand that it IS MAKE BELEIVE!!!!!

Lecture finsihed.

-Doffy (Aka Jefferson) [/B][/QUOTE]

=========================

I wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole.

mismused

 

[Guest]

I hate to spoil the idea, but it is a fact of life that a LOT of women who are raped, violently, do end up having an orgasm. Their own body betrays them. The assault isn't bad enough, isn't traumatic enough to stop the woman's body from enjoying what it is DESIGNED to enjoy. The human female was designed to enjoy being penetrated by the human male, to assure the continuation of the speicies. Just like the male was designed to enjoy penetrating the female.

-Doffy (Aka Jefferson)

Hi Doffy, it is good to see you again.

You made a good post there and I agreed with a few of you points.

However, I STRONGLY disagree with the above section. The assault IS bad enough and traumatic enough to stop a woman having an orgasm. Believe it or not, when a woman orgasms, that orgasm is usually brought about by what is going on in her brain, even more so than her body. Yes, the physical stimulation certainly plays a massive part, but, without her being there in mind, an orgasm just WILL NOT happen. Believe me.

As for this site and why some stories are accepted and some aren't, it's all about the presentation, intent and often the POV.

Edited to add: Just for the record, I do enjoy a good "rape fantasy". But, this is far from actual rape, because there is will and consent involved. A "rape fantasy" is not very far removed from rough, but loving, sex. Both partners want it and often the woman initiates it. She just wants to be taken by force and often by surprise. This is VERY different from actual rape. As I said above, it's all about the intent. I do have one non-consent story here, and it is told from the POV of the woman. She starts off terrified, but, as the story pans out, it becomes obvious, to both her and the reader, that the whole scenario was set up by her husband, who knew she had some very dark rape fantasies.

Lou

 

[LorriLove]

Hi Doffy, it is good to see you again.

You made a good post there and I agreed with a few of you points.

However, I STRONGLY disagree with the above section. The assault IS bad enough and traumatic enough to stop a woman having an orgasm. Believe it or not, when a woman orgasms, that orgasm is usually brought about by what is going on in her brain, even more so than her body. Yes, the physical stimulation certainly plays a massive part, but, without her being there in mind, an orgasm just WILL NOT happen. Believe me.

As for this site and why some stories are accepted and some aren't, it's all about the presentation, intent and often the POV.

Lou

hiya lou-lou

hay you're mellow today... why not just tell the fucking idiot it's a load of male oriented bullshit that 'he /she / whatever the fuck it is' posted about women cumming while they're being raped for real... jesus what a prick.

 

[Guest]

hiya lou-lou

hay you're mellow today... why not just tell the fucking idiot it's a load of male oriented bullshit that 'he /she / whatever the fuck it is' posted about women cumming while they're being raped for real... jesus what a prick.

Hi, Lorri, babe.

Yes, you are right, I was rather mellow. I just try to keep a lid on how I express myself sometimes, for fear of blowing up and getting over-emotional. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, because he's obviously mis-informed and does not have a clue how an actual rape would feel. I'm not talking physically there, either, I'm talking emotionally.

I just wish that some people would think a little more before they post such idiotic statements.

Lou

 

[Guest]

There are too many gray areas -

But the one thing that bothers me is I can't find a difference between a "threat" and an "implied threat".

Is it only acceptable to prove a rape if the man kicks the shit out of you? Bruised and bloodied?

A friend of mine was on her third of fourth date with a guy (I can't remember which) when after dinner he drove them, despite her protests, to an out of the way wooded area.

Then he wanted sex. She said no. He kept pressuring her, she kept batting his hands away and telling him she wasn't going to have sex with him. It became more and more physical; he was much stronger than her, of course, especially in closed quarters. She told me later she thought she was going to have to get out of the car in the middle of nowhere and walk home in the dark in order to prevent a rape.

He finally gave up, cursed at her, drove home quickly, dumped her off without another word. She was lucky.

BUT - did he beat her? No.

Did he tell her if she didn't suck him off he was going to hurt her? No.

But it was pretty damn obvious he held all the cards.

If he had forced her, and if she had gone to the police (after submitting to him in hopes he wouldn't hurt her too much) her story may not have been believed.

They'd ask her - "And why did you go into that area with this man? Did you want sex? How smart were you to do that?"

In our society, we usually blame the victim. Even in child abuse cases with really young victims we wonder why didn't they escape, why didn't they seek out help?

It isn't because we're terrible people, it's just because it is far easier to blame victims rather than worry about the monsters that live in our society.

 

[LorriLove]

Re: There are too many gray areas -

But the one thing that bothers me is I can't find a difference between a "threat" and an "implied threat".

Is it only acceptable to prove a rape if the man kicks the shit out of you? Bruised and bloodied?

A friend of mine was on her third of fourth date with a guy (I can't remember which) when after dinner he drove them, despite her protests, to an out of the way wooded area.

Then he wanted sex. She said no. He kept pressuring her, she kept batting his hands away and telling him she wasn't going to have sex with him. It became more and more physical; he was much stronger than her, of course, especially in closed quarters. She told me later she thought she was going to have to get out of the car in the middle of nowhere and walk home in the dark in order to prevent a rape.

He finally gave up, cursed at her, drove home quickly, dumped her off without another word. She was lucky.

BUT - did he beat her? No.

Did her tell her if she didn't suck him off he was going to hurt her? No.

But it was pretty damn obvious he held all the cards.

If he had forced her, and if she had gone to the police (after submitting to him in hopes he wouldn't hurt her too much) her story may not have been believed.

They'd ask her - "And why did you go into that area with this man? Did you want sex? How smart were you to do that?"

In our society, we usually blame the victim. Even in child abuse cases with really young victims we wonder why didn't they escape, why didn't they seek out help?

It isn't because we're terrible people, it's just because it is far easier to blame victims rather than worry about the monsters that live in our society.

you are so right sarahh honey... society, or the governing bit of it, always tries to blame the victim and scare her/him off pressing charges... cheaper than along winded rape trial i suppose.

i never intended all this to come out in public but fuck it why not... after a recent... shall we call it 'incident', i was advised by a senior police officer not to report the matter... being a married woman and having allowed myself to foolishly flirt a bit too much when a wee bit drunk in a pub prior to the 'incident'... it was decided the embarrassment heaped on me by the defence and possibly local press wouldn't be worth the effort... and the jury would probably blame me anyway for daring to be a female with a free spirit.

happily... although i didn't want it that way... with the aid of a certain person who should have known better than to be involved... the matter received attention via the law of the jungle, and three of my husband's very big friends spoke to the perpetrators of the 'incident', they have since left the area.

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: There are too many gray areas -

you are so right sarahh honey... society, or the governing bit of it, always tries to blame the victim and scare her/him off pressing charges... cheaper than along winded rape trial i suppose.

i never intended all this to come out in public but fuck it why not... after a recent... shall we call it 'incident', i was advised by a senior police officer not to report the matter... being a married woman and having allowed myself to foolishly flirt a bit too much when a wee bit drunk in a pub prior to the 'incident'... it was decided the embarrassment heaped on me by the defence and possibly local press wouldn't be worth the effort... and the jury would probably blame me anyway for daring to be a female with a free spirit.

happily... although i didn't want it that way... with the aid of a certain person who should have known better than to be involved... the matter received attention via the law of the jungle, and three of my husband's very big friends spoke to the perpetrators of the 'incident', they have since left the area.

I am sorry to hear about the "incident" but glad to hear it has been resolved.

I can't imagine how terrible it must feel to know that you really can't do anything legally to a man like that.

Because you know it isn't his first time. And it won't be his last. This type of behavior usually escalates, especially if he's never been forced to stop.

(Then again, your method of "resolution" may have done a world of good. Perhaps the asshole will think twice before trying that on someone else?)

 

[bridgeburner]

Boxlicker

I don't like your definition (or your spelling) of acquaintance rape.

You didn’t understand the definition of acquaintance rape although I thank you for your gracious copyediting on the spelling. Can I get you to follow me around and do that?

The scenario you provided does not fall under acquaintance rape because the definition is not a literal interpretation of who is an “acquaintance” and what is a “date”. As SweetnPetite pointed out these are not legal terms, but they are the terms used by those who involve themselves in rape counseling and PACs. They don’t have multiple terms for multiple situations. “Yeah, this is Frat Party Rape and that one over there is Office Cloakroom Rape and those are Caught After School in the Locker Room Rape.” All or none of which might be perpetrated by either a stranger or someone the victim knows.

I understand why you are focused on the word “Date” – because it fits the scenarios you want to discuss – but if we’re going to talk about real-life rather than fiction and story crafting then it’s best not to misuse such a term, and insisting that Date Rape only refers to instances where an actual date occurred makes a false distinction.

In this case, I think the alleged victim's actions would be more important than what was said.

If you hear the words “Stop” or “No” then the only safe legal choice is to quit whatever it is you’re doing. If she gets huffy about it then tell her in no uncertain terms that if she says Stop or No then she isn’t getting any. As I said before, it’s not a good idea to count on being able to convince a judge in a rape trial that regardless of what the woman actually said you knew what she really meant.

I also don't mean that beating her up is the only way to rape her, and I certainly didn't mean to imply that. Looking over my recent posts, I don't see how they could be taken to imply that.

By requiring proof of violence or proof of the threat of such in order to determine a rape you didn’t leave room for anything else.

Being scary is something that guys can't help.

My first inclination was to call bullshit on this and then when I realized the context in which you meant it I had to agree. Men are stronger and bigger than women and in most physical altercations will prevail over the woman. So, in that sense, yes, men always to some extent represent a credible source of violence and/or physical compulsion.

No, I don’t believe that is grounds to argue that every sexual encounter, later regretted, might be seen as rape. As SweetnPetite pointed out earlier I think we’d have a lot less problem with these kinds of misunderstandings if people waited to get to know each other a bit before hopping in the sack. Additionally I think that women need to be encouraged to take more responsibility for their sexuality and their choices --- protecting them like children makes them too often childish in their behavior. It’s as damaging and as sexist as denying them the right to choose in the first place.


-B

 

[bridgeburner]

Just general stuff here:


Uh, I think Jefferson was perhaps too vehement in talking about rape victims having orgasms but I don't think he's a prick or was even trying to be a prick. I think he was actually trying to express that whether or not a woman has an orgasm has nothing whatsoever to do with whether an incident is or is not rape. I don't think he expressed that in the best possible way, but let's not pull out the asshole brand just yet.

Likewise I think he overstated his case that well-adjusted children can be exposed to pretty much anything and be fine so long as it's fiction. I think well-adjusted kids are pretty resilient, but their greatest advantage is that they likely have involved and well-adjusted parents --- which is why the kids are so well-adjusted in the first place. There are things that aren't appropriate for kids, but involved parents can mitigate the danger of exposure to such things and this is how kids learn to be grown-ups.

My 4yo nephew is a great kid. He's smart, he's happy, he's well behaved and loving and generous, but I don't think he would be "fine" if he sat through Cannibal Holocaust. Now, when he's 10 that might be a different story although his parents certainly don't intend to LET him see such things at 10. Kids change as they grow oddly enough. ;->


-B

 

[bridgeburner]

Jefferson,

I think I stated this earlier, but just in case I didn't or you missed it I don't know what the exact rule is -- if there is one -- regarding rape stories.

Your best bet is to write the best story you can, submit it and see what happens. If the editors need a change made they'll say so. As you're not in the habit of writing snuff or torture stories I doubt you'll have much trouble ---- but some of the editors are narrower in their thinking than others about what constitutes "extreme".

Best of luck to you. Let me know when you get your story done. I'd like to read it.


-B

 

[angela146]

If you hear the words “Stop” or “No” then the only safe legal choice is to quit whatever it is you’re doing. If she gets huffy about it then tell her in no uncertain terms that if she says Stop or No then she isn’t getting any.

And here we have a *legitmate* exercise of male power in both story and real life.

 

[Guest]

I would like to apologize to any and all I may have offended with my post earlier today. It was written before I'd had any sleep and I now see that I didn't write to my best side.

The "asshole" comment really wasn't necessary.,

 

[LorriLove]

I would like to apologize to any and all I may have offended with my post earlier today. It was written before I'd had any sleep and I now see that I didn't write to my best side.

The "asshole" comment really wasn't necessary.,

for being big enough to explain and apologise doffy honey.

 

[Pure]

Doffy:

"The human female was designed to enjoy being penetrated by the human male, to assure the continuation of the speicies. Just like the male was designed to enjoy penetrating the female. "

Female enjoyment is pretty irrelevant to 'continuation of the species.' Societies which has never heard of female pleasure, orgasm, etc. have done quite well. The sentence would more accurately read:

The 'design' of the human female is to allow penetration by the male, desposit of seed, fertilization (independent of pleasure, orgasm etc-- hell, even consciousness) and thus continuation of the species.

As to *theories* of the females pleasure, I endorse the one that says it's to keep the guy staying around and helping out with the children.

 

[Guest]

Doffy:
As to *theories* of the females pleasure, I endorse the one that says it's to keep the guy staying around and helping out with the children.

(is that why you don't have one?)

 

[Tanuki]

Newest story I'm Still Naughty, Uncle Albert

That's got to be the best story title ever!

 

[Guest]

That's got to be the best story title ever!

Thank you!

It's a Part Two story; Part One is called I'm so Naughty, Uncle Albert.

Written for a friend of mine, actually, named Albert. (And many people do catch the Beatles reference.)

 

[Boxlicker101]

Doffy:

"The human female was designed to enjoy being penetrated by the human male, to assure the continuation of the speicies. Just like the male was designed to enjoy penetrating the female. "

Female enjoyment is pretty irrelevant to 'continuation of the species.' Societies which has never heard of female pleasure, orgam, etc. have done quite well. The sentence would more accurately read:

The 'design' of the human female is to allow penetration by the male, desposit of seed, fertilization (independent of pleasure, orgasm etc-- hell, even consciousness) and thus continuation of the species.

As to *theories* of the females pleasure, I endorse the one that says it's to keep the guy staying around and helping out with the children.

I have to agree with Doffy on this one. I realize that female enjoyment is not necessary for impregnation to occur, although it is a help. However, the human body is designed in such a way that fucking should be fun for both male and female. I don't think anybody on this forum is going to dispute that. If it weren't fun, people, in their natural state, wouldn't do it and the species would have died out long ago.

Even so, I find it hard to believe that if a woman has been physically assaulted and is being held down by two men while another violates her body that she is going to have an orgasm. On the other hand, in an acquaintance rape, or date rape as it is usually called in the newspapers, the man may not even think of himself as raping the woman and may actually be gentle and considerate, except for not listening to her objections. In such a case, the woman may very likely cum.

 

[Boxlicker101]

This is the story that I mentioned as being rejected as being violent and brutal.

CAUTION: If you have read and enjoyed my other stories, I want to warn you that this story has NOTHING in common with them. This is the story of the brutal rape of one man by two violent and despicable men.


Jim and Bill Brody had been on their own since Bill was 19 and Jim was 18. Their parents died in a car wreck that year, leaving their sons with nothing but some bills and the clothes on their backs. Some young men would have buckled down and made something of themselves but the Brody Brothers were just a pair of brutes with no ambition and they took the next freight train out of town.

Years later, the brothers, big, strong and healthy though they were, had never done an honest day’s work in their lives. “Knights of the Open Road” have a certain amount of camaraderie toward each other but there was none toward the Brody Brothers. Even their fellow hoboes knew them as a pair of lazy, nasty, bad-tempered thugs and wanted nothing to do with them.

Jerry Collins was not a real hobo; he was an 18 year old college student majoring in Sociology and he was experiencing the hobo life first hand for research purposes. Blonde, slight of stature and with long hair and a short beard, Jerry had the bad luck one afternoon to get into a boxcar where the only other inhabitants were the despicable Brody Brothers. When Jerry saw he was not alone in the boxcar, he was not concerned, and actually looked on this as a chance to learn more from genuine hoboes. He approached the brothers with a smile on his face and his hand extended.

Jim Brody ignored the extended hand and looked at the smile, the fair skin and the long, blonde hair of Jerry Collins. “Hey, Bro,” he said to his sibling. “We got us a real cute girl here.”

Bill Brody did not ignore the outstretched hand. He grabbed it and Jerry’s wrist with both of his hands and responded to his brother, “Yeah. Let’s fuck her.”

Jerry didn’t really know what was happening until Jim’s big fist plowed into his solar plexus and Bill grabbed him by the head and wrestled him to the floor. Face down, he was defenseless while Bill slugged him in the kidney and Jim kicked him in the temple, stunning him. After that, both brothers punched and kicked him until he was unconscious and then they took off his clothes and held him face down on the floor of the boxcar. When Jerry came to is when the worst part of his nightmare started.

While waiting for their victim to revive, they had flipped a coin. Bill had won and it was his turn first. Jim sat on Jerry’s shoulders while Bill knelt on his legs and spread their victim’s buttocks. “What a nice, cute cunt she got for us,” he said and spit up some phlegm to lubricate Jerry’s anus so he could be sodomized.

“Spit ain’t enough,” Jim said. “We need us some soap and water.” He got up and went to where the brothers had stashed their belongings and got the water bottle and the bar of soap they occasionally used. Bill was big and strong enough to hold the diminutive Jerry on the floor and all he could do was ask for mercy.

“Please let me go,” he begged. “I’ve never hurt you. What are you doing?”

“Shut the fuck up,” Bill responded, punching him in the kidney. “We’re gonna fuck your pretty cunt and there ain’t nothin’ you can do about it.”

Jerry was in so much pain he could hardly talk but he continued to beg for mercy from two men who had none for anybody. “Please let me go. Please don’t hurt me. I’ll go away and never tell anybody.”

Bill just laughed and when Jim returned with the soap and water, he pulled down his pants and used it to lubricate his cock and their victim’s defenseless anus. One thumb on either side held open the anal sphincter and he thrust the head of his cock into the small, soapy opening.

Jerry screamed from the pain of this anal rape, completely unimagined until then. Both brothers laughed and Bill brutally thrust his cock in the rest of the way, all the way through Jerry’s rectum and into the end of his colon. As their victim cried and whimpered from the agony, and from his helpless rage, Jim held him down and Bill sawed his cock in and out of his anus, ignoring the blood from the torn tissue.

“Her cunt is sure tight. This is the best piece of ass I’ve had in a long time,” Bill exulted. “You’re gonna love fucking her too when I get done.”

“Hurry up. I’m real horny. I ain’t fucked nobody in a long time. You can fuck her again when I get done with her. I know I wanna fuck her a couple of times anyhow.”

Jerry had passed out from the incredible pain of the rape and his internal injuries by the time Bill ejaculated into his savaged rectum. Bill pulled his cock out and moved aside and his brother took his place. Jim soaped up his cock but Jerry’s anus was slick enough from the blood and the soap already there, and needed no more lubrication. Without even a thought of mercy or sympathy, Jim rammed his cock into the helpless, bloody anus before him and assaulted their victim until he also climaxed.

That day was bad beyond belief for Jerry Collins but at least he was unconscious much of the time and missed the worst part of the pain and degradation of his rape by the Brody Brothers. They took turns through the evening, each brute sodomizing him three times, and when they were through, they left him lying in his own blood from the massive internal injuries.

Just before they lay down to sleep, Jim said to Bill, “We’ll fuck her again in the morning, if she’s still alive.”

“What do you mean, if she’s alive? We’ll fuck her whether she’s alive or not.”

 

[Guest]

Box, all I can say to that is: I'm not fucking surprised it got rejected!!!

Jeez, mate, I thought I'd read some nasty stuff in my time, but, bloody hell! In fact, I have read a lot of stuff much worse than that, in content, BUT that kind of stuff at least had a story behind it and some kind of resolution. What you wrote there was, on the face of it, merely sick, gratuitous violence.

Can I ask, and only because I'm interested from a writer's POV: what prompted you to write that?

Lou

 

[Guest]

I would like to apologize to any and all I may have offended with my post earlier today. It was written before I'd had any sleep and I now see that I didn't write to my best side.

The "asshole" comment really wasn't necessary.,

It's ok, honey. I really don't believe you meant to offend anyone, and your post, in its entirely, wasn't at all offensive.

I merely picked out that paragraph and felt I had to reply to it, because it just isn't true. I guess it's one of those fallacies that some people hear or read about, then believe.

Lou

 

[Boxlicker101]

Box, all I can say to that is: I'm not fucking surprised it got rejected!!!

Jeez, mate, I thought I'd read some nasty stuff in my time, but, bloody hell! In fact, I have read a lot of stuff much worse than that, in content, BUT that kind of stuff at least had a story behind it and some kind of resolution. What you wrote there was, on the face of it, merely sick, gratuitous violence.

Can I ask, and only because I'm interested from a writer's POV: what prompted you to write that?

Lou

A while ago there was a challenge on a thread to write a porn story using the word "phlegm". I did so but decided to write a really nasty story using it. There would have been a sequel, nasty in its own right, in which the brothers were arrested, convicted and hanged. If the story had been acccepted, I would have written it.

This was the first and last story like this that I will write. It is certainy diffeent from my usual gentle story, isn' it?

 

[cantdog]

It certainly answers my definition of rape. Until this very thread, I had a difficult time featuring rape fantasies at all, because of that kind of image.

I felt there had to be some kind of pathology to get off on rape. Stark, box. Grisly. If there is going to be a line, let's put it this side of that story, I guess. It would ill bespeak our little community if a section of the writing here consistently held stories of that kind. It would be creepy to think a lot of people loved to read them.

So tell me, o ancient one of lit., would that story have been put in "Extreme," back when there was such a section?''

cantdog