Why Amazon is anti-union

[pecksniff]

Because it has experience with unions.

There is an obvious reason why Amazon has opted to respond so aggressively to unionization efforts in the United States. Its European workers are unionized and are actively demanding better wages and working conditions. For example, in Germany, unionized Amazon workers walked off their jobs for higher pay in November during the peak holiday shopping season. Last year, Italian workers went on strike for 11 days to win an extra five-minute break to ensure good hygiene in light of the pandemic. And, in the spring of 2020, French unions demanded that Amazon suspend all activity at its warehouses in the interest of worker safety during the early months of the pandemic. A French court ruled favorably, saying that the company had to suspend deliveries of all nonessential items.

Further, union leaders and unionized workers from various European nations began collaborating with one another last year in what Business Insider called an effort to “swap notes… on how to pressure the retail giant to improve their working conditions.”

This sort of European union activity and cross-border worker solidarity is exactly the type of scenario that Amazon does not want to see replicated in the United States.

As far as I'm concerned, any union-buster is an enemy of humanity, against whom any atrocity is morally permissible.

 

[Champakian]

The employees very recently voted on
unionization and they turned it down.

The problem with a union is that it protects incompetence
and make it impossible to reward the best workers.

No one want to be saddled with incompetence
and no one wants to be unrewarded...

 

[jaF0]

As far as I'm concerned, ...

... you should stick to sniffin' peckers. Chump's seems to be available.

 

[Champakian]

Personal attacks.

Are you in the 12th grade?

Should you be banned as an underage???

 

[JohnnySavage]

The biggest unions represent government workers.

You know... the ones responsible for writing the labor regulations.

Just one of life's ironies I suppose.

In days of yore, capital was fixed and labor was mobile. Now.. Labor is fixed and capital is mobile. Unions have served their purpose because capital can pack up and go if it wants.

 

[Champakian]

Exactly.

The blue collar unions are almost a thing of the past.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

The employees very recently voted on
unionization and they turned it down.

The problem with a union is that it protects incompetence
and make it impossible to reward the best workers.

No one want to be saddled with incompetence
and no one wants to be unrewarded...

 

[Champakian]

However eloquent you feel you are,

a picture really is inferior to 1,000 (or even ten) words...

Fremdschämen

 

[GothTalk]

Because it has experience with unions.



As far as I'm concerned, any union-buster is an enemy of humanity, against whom any atrocity is morally permissible.

Amazon is anti-union because they want to make money and offer maximum performance/service to their customers. That simple.

That doesn't make them the enemy of humanity, nor does it make your call to violence against them moral or permissible.

You're just mad because rich people exist and don't want to destroy their companies for equity and social justices sake....LOL

Try worrying about your own cash flow for a change, maybe then you won't be so upset about others.

I personally love them because they made my sister and I a shit load of money AND they still deliver cool/hard to find products to my doorstep.

 

[Rightguide]

Because it has experience with unions.



As far as I'm concerned, any union-buster is an enemy of humanity, against whom any atrocity is morally permissible.

Amazon is anti-union because they are smart people who care about the longevity of their business. Unionized businesses' are in the minority.

 

[pecksniff]

I've never understood what RWs have against organized labor. Collective bargaining is just another form of negotiation in the marketplace.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Amazon is anti-union because they want to make money and offer maximum performance/service to their customers. That simple.

That doesn't make them the enemy of humanity, nor does it make your call to violence against them moral or permissible.

You're just mad because rich people exist and don't want to destroy their companies for equity and social justices sake....LOL

Try worrying about your own cash flow for a change, maybe then you won't be so upset about others.

I personally love them because they made my sister and I a shit load of money AND they still deliver cool/hard to find products to my doorstep.

No, they are anti union because they don't want to pay people for their work, not because they want to offer a damn thing to their customers. Don't let them fool you.

Nobody is pissed that rich people exist. And that isn't even really part of this conversation in a logical way. This conversation is specifically about unions and the good they do for a nation. Whether or not violence is justified is a serious matter of opinion. I seem to remember history class teaching us it was okay to become terrorists if taxes were raised a modest amount. Did that change at some point?

Everyone is worried about their own, that doesn't mean we are unaware of others. Amazon could deliver nice things to your doorstep any pay better wages you know. And while I don't really find a lot there that isn't easier to find on other sites, that's hardly the point. If I had a real problem with Amazon its that just like every major game changer in history it put people out of work.

 

[Rightguide]

I've never understood what RWs have against organized labor. Collective bargaining is just another form of negotiation in the marketplace.

Because it bargains for the collective instead of the individual who is of paramount importance in a meritocracy like free enterprise.

 

[Comshaw]

The employees very recently voted on
unionization and they turned it down.

The problem with a union is that it protects incompetence
and make it impossible to reward the best workers.

No one want to be saddled with incompetence
and no one wants to be unrewarded...

No it doesn't. Although that has been repeated ad nauseam, there is no proof anywhere that is true. If there is post it and I'll apologize for being wrong.

Having been on both sides of that table, as a union member and shop steward and later a non-union manager, I can tell you if it does happen, it's because the company negotiators screwed up their job as far as negotiating the contract goes.

The ONLY REQUIRED items of negotiation are 1) wages, 2) work hours and 3) working conditions. Everything else does not have to be negotiated.

Since the 1970's companies have been trying to convince (and have for a large part have) the American worker that unions are bad for them.

"They're crooked!" Some are, but the crooks on the work side aren't anymore numerous than those on the company side and in actually are probably less.

"You can do better on your own!" total bullshit. A union is a group that support each other. Not any different from a business association that bans together to change laws.

"Going on strike is unfair to the company because we lose profits!" Really? And the workers get paid while on strike? They do, kind of, but not by the company. It only happens because each contributes to a strike fund while working to make sure each union member gets a little money (most times it's not even up to unemployment compensation levels) during a strike. The workers suffer monetarily as much if not more than a company does during a strike.

Unions are good for the worker AND good for the company. Why do I say that? It gives the worker more disposable income to spend, which is spent on things that companies make. Most union workers are proud of how they do their jobs and do them very well.
Back in the early 80's I was on a large construction job as a plumbers helper and got to observe the union workers (carpenters, tile layers, plumbers, electrical workers) on that job. They brought the project in under budget and well under the deadline. If there were as many incompetent, lazy union workers as you insist there are, it never would have happened that way.

Since the 1970s, union membership has fallen. Right along with it has gone the wages for the middle class.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Because it bargains for the collective instead of the individual who is of paramount importance in a meritocracy like free enterprise.

Except that isn't how reality works in most areas that want and need unions. They are jobs where it is near impossible to rate individual workers in a meaningful way for for one reason or another.

Additionally setting a floor for what people can be paid working in this or that employer doesn't prevent management from promoting people or even just adjusting their pay based on a meritocracy. Though again many jobs don't have any real way of defining a meritocratic way of measuring worth.

 

[GothTalk]

No, they are anti union because they don't want to pay people for their work,

Lots of folks work there for not getting paid to work.

not because they want to offer a damn thing to their customers. Don't let them fool you.

They aren't fooling anything, they're delving the goods, rarer, cheaper, faster or just more convenient and making small businesses possible and more profitable than ever....real world shit, makes my amazing life possible all the time.

I use their services to sell my shit, I invest with them, they make me fuck tons of money. I buy new mining rigs, make even more money.

I love Amazon

Whether or not violence is justified is a serious matter of opinion. I seem to remember history class teaching us it was okay to become terrorists if taxes were raised a modest amount. Did that change at some point?

Taxes aren't the same as voluntary employment, false equivalency.

Nobody is coerced by the EXPLICIT threat of violence to go work for Amazon for unreasonable wages. You don't even have to use their services if you don't like them.

There is no such option to not pay your taxes.... if yu don't pay your fair share then "the man" will eventually come for that and if you resist they will destroy you.

Everyone is worried about their own, that doesn't mean we are unaware of others. Amazon could deliver nice things to your doorstep any pay better wages you know.

Sure, they could, but they don't don't seem to think they need to, so why should they??

They're there to make money, not pay extra for the feel good fee fees.

And while I don't really find a lot there that isn't easier to find on other sites, that's hardly the point. If I had a real problem with Amazon its that just like every major game changer in history it put people out of work.

It also opened up lots of opportunities for lots of people... that's why it's not a real problem anymore than whip makers when horseless carriage came along. Those that can adapt to the changes and overcome? Will... those that can't? Fall out. Which really has been the name of the game since the moment single celled organisms crawled from the primordial ooze. The game is just more conceptual but it still is and will likely always be survival of the most adaptable.

 

[JohnnySavage]

If it wasn't for government set-asides for union labor (at all levels), the number of unionized workers would be cut in half. Those set-asides are the only thing keeping the building trades unionized.

Which is funny because all of the large contractors have a union side and a non-union side. The Union sides are usually 100% government contracts and they are able to charge about 25% more for the same project above the non-union price.

 

[pecksniff]

Because it bargains for the collective instead of the individual who is of paramount importance in a meritocracy like free enterprise.

I know of nothing in RW thinking that says people can't band together for a common purpose.

 

[Bud_Spencer]

It's not the wages that are the big problem, it's the work rules that will kill a company like Amazon.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Lots of folks work there for not getting paid to work.

Did this make sense in your head or did you screw up your word order somewhere?

They aren't fooling anything, they're delving the goods, rarer, cheaper, faster or just more convenient and making small businesses possible and more profitable than ever....real world shit, makes my amazing life possible all the time.

They are not dealing in rarer goods, they are not cheaper nor are they faster. All of these are lies. The not having to leave your house part is nice. They are not making small businesses possible, they are killing them faster than Walmart already was. I'm not really pissed about that. I think we should be working a Basic Income for all citizens but the idea that they are making life easier for small businesses is nonsense.

They have you pretty solidly fooled. Without big government we Netflix, Amazon, UPS and FedEx off the top of my head would NEVER have happened.

I use their services to sell my shit, I invest with them, they make me fuck tons of money. I buy new mining rigs, make even more money.

I love Amazon

Ignoring that everybody by this point knows you're lying about how much money they make you and how much money you are making the reality is that even if you are telling the truth you're the exception to the rule, not the rule. Any law that doesn't prioritize households making less than 70k really shouldn't be on the table. Everybody above that can play there own separate game and 70k isn't even that much money. We've allowed the rich to get so out of control that its absurd.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=media...sc=8-19&cvid=099455bddb7b46b5a622220864d17130

Taxes aren't the same as voluntary employment, false equivalency.

Nobody is coerced by the EXPLICIT threat of violence to go work for Amazon for unreasonable wages. You don't even have to use their services if you don't like them.

If you live around other people and have public services such as waste removal and protection from fires and criminals its actually much more noble than voluntary employment which really shouldn't be a prereq in the modern world.

Amazon hasn't quite gotten there yet but give a few more years and not using them is going to rapidly stop really being an option. And lets stop joking that there is an explicit threat of violence. The IRS doesn't give a half shit about most of us and doesn't bother hunting down those people they should be bugging. We are a self sabotaging country.

There is no such option to not pay your taxes.... if yu don't pay your fair share then "the man" will eventually come for that and if you resist they will destroy you.

Eventually is a very long time unless you fall some where between 40 and 80 percent. Below that they are saving money by not giving your refund and above that you have enough lawyers to to make it to much trouble to bother.

Sure, they could, but they don't don't seem to think they need to, so why should they??

They're there to make money, not pay extra for the feel good fee fees.

Of their own voilition? They shouldn't. This is why we have a government so people who have no good reason not to hold your very life in the palm of their hands from doing just that.

It also opened up lots of opportunities for lots of people... that's why it's not a real problem anymore than whip makers when horseless carriage came along. Those that can adapt to the changes and overcome? Will... those that can't? Fall out. Which really has been the name of the game since the moment single celled organisms crawled from the primordial ooze. The game is just more conceptual but it still is and will likely always be survival of the most adaptable.

The amount of people who benefited is dwarfed by the people it put out of work one way or another. You know the funny part is that you are correct and that's why every couple million years damn near everything dies because the amount of organisms who can adapt are so limited that once something comes along that can hurt those on top everything fucking crumbles.

If you think that it was just whip makers who suffered when automobiles became common you're sorely mistaken.

 

[GothTalk]

They are not dealing in rarer goods, they are not cheaper nor are they faster. All of these are lies.

Nope. Certainly not in the high value plant world.

You're just talking shit you know nothing about.

They are not making small businesses possible, they are killing them faster than Walmart already was.

Yes they are, thousands of them actually. Including mine.

Ignoring that everybody by this point knows you're lying

You don't know shit and you're not everybody.

And lets stop joking that there is an explicit threat of violence.

That's literally what every law on the books is, an explicit threat of violence.

The IRS doesn't give a half shit about most of us and doesn't bother hunting down those people they should be bugging. We are a self sabotaging country.

No, in the real world where adults have responsibilities you pay the IRS or you get fucked.

No, (D)emocrats haven't won and gotten their way yet, self destruction has been largely held at bay by the Republican's.

Of their own voilition? ​They shouldn't.

No shit.

This is why we have a government so people who have no good reason not to hold your very life in the palm of their hands from doing just that.

We are a liberal democracy where private property, civil rights and freedom of association are all things, not a socialist shit hole where they are not, so that's actually NOT why we have a government.

 

[pecksniff]

It's not the wages that are the big problem, it's the work rules that will kill a company like Amazon.

I'm sure a company like Amazon has a sufficient margin of profit to provide better and safer working conditions and stay in business.

 

[GothTalk]

I know of nothing in RW thinking that says people can't band together for a common purpose.

Nobody on the RW is saying they can't or shouldn't.

We are saying low/no skill labor in a low/no skill labor market that is so saturated min-wage is value inflated pay.....don't have it in them.

Low/no skill labor is NOT in a position of power to bargain collectively.... you'll just get replaced.

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Because it has experience with unions.



As far as I'm concerned, any union-buster is an enemy of humanity, against whom any atrocity is morally permissible.

Because they can get away with it. Starting a labor union, from what I hear is not easy.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Nope. Certainly not in the high value plant world.

You're just talking shit you know nothing about.

I've spent almost three years working for Amazon. Maybe in your specific area of expertise they deal with rare things but most of their business is made up of electronics FFS. Nothing you couldn't get a Best Buy and unless you're picky about it has to be the back lit Neon Green Miraculous Ladybug edition nothing you couldn't get at Walmart.

Yes they are, thousands of them actually. Including mine.

Not nearly enough to make up for what they are destroying. And like so many of your claims at this point like most of the board I'm fairly comfortable calling you a liar. Lets take you at face value. You really think Amazon even if you count businesses like yours make up for the business they take away from Brick and mortar locations? Those aren't JUST cashiers. Thsoe are truckers, landscapers, food trucks, vending machines, plumbers, electricians and even UPS. Not every or even most things you get from Amazon are actually delivered from those blue mega vans. Believe me I order enough from them to know. I can literally tell whether it's the mail lady, UPS or Amazon by if they knock on the door and run like hell or if they just leave in a spot where a casual person wakling by wouldn't see it.

You don't know shit and you're not everybody.

I'm close enough to everybody for this particular case. The others who read here have two choices. Believe a post who was regular for a decade and a half and honored a bet they didn't even officially sign on for and someone who keeps changing their name to confuse people. Even BusyBody made sure his names were similar enough that you knew it was him before you read enough posts to figure out the word choice.

If you would be dishonest about something THIS petty there is no reason to believe anything you say.

That's literally what every law on the books is, an explicit threat of violence.

Laws are explicit threats of violence only within your tiny world where things literally don't make sense.

No, in the real world where adults have responsibilities you pay the IRS or you get fucked.

I didn't pay for nearly a decade and never recieved so much as a letter. They don't care about little fish. They just don't.

No, (D)emocrats haven't won and gotten their way yet, self destruction has been largely held at bay by the Republican's.

Its gonna take a minute but the Republicans are gonna die out sooner than later with few idiots to replace them and if it were self destruction Europe would be on fire instead of having longer happier lives than Americans. We are uniquely fucked by Western Civilization standards.



No shit.

We are a liberal democracy where private property, civil rights and freedom of association are all things, not a socialist shit hole where they are not, so that's actually NOT why we have a government.

No, it is one of the leading reasons why we have a government. Just because our government fails at its tasks at an alarming rate because a rigged racist system means absolutely fuck all.