Where In Hell Did We Go Wrong?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I just read this: Henry Ford created the 5 day work week, he created the 8 hour work day, he paid the highest wages in the auto industry, and he reduced the price of the Model T from $900 to $300 between 1908 and 1921.

This nation hasnt made any progress since those days. You still work 5 days and 8 hours. And the price of your car isnt 1/4 of your pay, like in Ford's time, its equal to about what you earn all year.

What in hell is our problem?

 

[sr71plt]

I just read this: Henry Ford created the 5 day work week, he created the 8 hour work day, he paid the highest wages in the auto industry, and he reduced the price of the Model T from $900 to $300 between 1908 and 1921.

This nation hasnt made any progress since those days. You still work 5 days and 8 hours. And the price of your car isnt 1/4 of your pay, like in Ford's time, its equal to about what you earn all year.

What in hell is our problem?

He thought once he'd done that, he was finished. After doing that for decades, he looked up in time to see the Japanese zoom on by because they didn't stop innovating.

 

[JackLuis]

It started after WW I, the US was primed by war contracts and American Business was in the drivers seat, then the Stock Market and stuff caused a depression.

Another war and an advance in technologies, let us end up with the means to annihilate a few square miles and we soon developed even bigger bombs as if one 500 Kiloton wasn't really enough. Most of the industrial might of Europe and the Far east was in ruins and American Business were on top again and profits were up!

The Nort Koreans mistook the word of the Sec of State and caught the US under prepared and gave the Military something to think about.

What with all the money that the Military was spending was pumped into the American economy and Business shifted from Goods to services. IBM makes a good deal of money out of their services division.

The MBA generation started to figure out how to skim every cent of each transaction and forced their employees to follow the plans that had been carefully phrased by Marketing Psychoanalysts.

The Next War was Viet Nam and what a lovely war it was in 1962, The forces of Democracy were holed up in a delightful tropic paradise controlled by the traditional forces of the country and life was sweet.

Then in '65 LBJ dropped the hammer on the "Soviet Menace" and We needed a whole new set of weapons systems to "Stem the Red Tide in Asia".

Good times for the Military -Industrialist Complex!

The focus of American thought was on cutting costs and not about producing more value.

Exit American Industries as they set up low cost foreign manufacturing and suddenly find themselves competing against their same technologies form Companies who learned the business from the Americans.

Fast forward through the Bush years and we have only limited ability to produce the very things we invented. We have allowed our schools to produce cannon fodder for the Military Industrialist complex to expend, as needed to provide the resources for further production of arms for enemies that are as yet unborn.

It is all the Accountant's fault!

 

[amicus]

Interesting lineage there, JBJ, keyed by Hilary Clinton's identifying her political stance as "Progressive, as we were at the beginning of the 20th Century".

Teddy Roosevelt, around that time, was the first to claim that the country had evolved beyond the 'Constitution" and that America should also evolve to meet the demands of a new era. Follow that with the Progressive adminstration of Wilson, all of which coincided with the imposition of the Income Tax amendment, the Prohibition amendment and a host of social issues, National Parks is one, that changed the nature of the Nation from one of Constitutional law, to the progressive activists that sought to change our basic laws.

There was a two hour film on Henry Ford of recent, and being forced to 'Unionize' the Ford Motor company, after he had paid his workers more than union wages for decades, and his son Edsel's involvement with organized crime, and of course, Henry's personal pecadillo's, that eventually forced him to turn the company over to his grandson.

Of course, that is just a small thumbnail of why the United States has slowly but inevitably moved away from the honor it once held as the lone defender of human individual liberty.

...and so it goes...

Amicus

 

[sr71plt]

Gee, this wasn't about the history of the world. As posed, it is a simple question about where a single automaker went wrong. Ford didn't innovate and it's forward planning of changes to its product were always off (except maybe for the Mustang).

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Yesterday I read a book about this very topic. Why are there poor and rich. Why are there impoverished hells.

The answer is: The head of state is a weakling who pays tribute to bandits and thieves.

 

[S-Des]

I just read this: Henry Ford created the 5 day work week, he created the 8 hour work day, he paid the highest wages in the auto industry, and he reduced the price of the Model T from $900 to $300 between 1908 and 1921.

This nation hasnt made any progress since those days. You still work 5 days and 8 hours. And the price of your car isnt 1/4 of your pay, like in Ford's time, its equal to about what you earn all year.

What in hell is our problem?

Maybe you drive too nice a car? I have a vehicle that I really like and is very dependable, and cost me about 1/3 of what I made when I bought it. They are far more to repair than they used to be, but as with most things in our society, I suspect the real problem is in our warped perspective of "need" vs "want."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Maybe you drive too nice a car? I have a vehicle that I really like and is very dependable, and cost me about 1/3 of what I made when I bought it. They are far more to repair than they used to be, but as with most things in our society, I suspect the real problem is in our warped perspective of "need" vs "want."

Let's use calculators. In 1977 I paid $75 for a decent calculator. The same calculator today costs less than $20 (adjusting for inflation, the price is about $5 in 1977 money).

In 1980 I bought a computer with 48K memory for $1500. My present computer with 1.2 gigabytes of memory cost me $600.... or about $200 in 1980 money.

A modern car should cost you about $30.

 

[amicus]

Ahm, JBJ, a little more than that, including tires.

But your point is well taken, upwards of $5,000 is added to the cost of each 'Detroit made' American automobiles, just to pay the inflated Union wages and benefits.

All the 'girly' things, since women began to vote, like seat belts and laws to wear them, airbags, double side walls, catalytic converters, the whole fuel system, redesigned to meet 'cafe'' standards to not pollute the environment.

I mean, I grant these improvements are useful, but I also happen to be a free market fella, you want those things, you pay extra, less us decide what we will buy.

I know I am pissing in the ocean here, not really expecting the tide to rise, (that was a good pee!", from "League of Their Own", since the ladies have gained voice, they want tanks to drive around in so the cell phone on their ear doesn't wabble.

Helluva deal, eh?

Ami

 

[S-Des]

Let's use calculators. In 1977 I paid $75 for a decent calculator. The same calculator today costs less than $20 (adjusting for inflation, the price is about $5 in 1977 money).

In 1980 I bought a computer with 48K memory for $1500. My present computer with 1.2 gigabytes of memory cost me $600.... or about $200 in 1980 money.

A modern car should cost you about $30.

Nonsense. You're talking raw materials and labor costs here. Cars involve vastly more in materials, safety requirements, and assembly time (not to mention the rising costs of the equipment and land they own, plus taxes). Calculators can be made of any material, and use any technology to achieve the single purpose of calculation. Cars have multiple requirements, including the amount of time they are supposed to last (I bought a car that gets on average 200,000 miles). I've never heard of anyone suing for injuries caused by a faulty calculator, but automakers have to keep highly-priced attorneys on staff and have paid out billions for lawsuits.

If you are going to start making those comparisons, how much did a gallon of milk cost a hundred years ago versus today? Last time I checked, the technology hasn't changed that much. Also, since the example you cited said that 1/4 of the salary went to cover the early cars, it really hasn't changed much considering what's involved in the process.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

Yesterday I read about healthcare costs around the world. The book discussed England and Canada and the US and other places. OGG whoops up England, but other places do it better for less money without the socialism.

Singapore did the math and concluded that it spent $1500 a year shuffling paper for every citizen. So they fired every bureaucrat that shuffled healthcare paper and gave the money to the citizen as an income tax credit to use to pay for MD visits or whatever. And they gave every citizen a cheapo inpatient policy that costs about 30-40 bucks a month.

Thats it. You get $1500 a year, for as long as you live, deducted from your taxes and put in a medical savings account. And if youre a healthy old fuck like me, you can will the money to your kids.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

S-DES

Henry Ford didnt re-invent the wheel every time he built a Model T. Detroit in 2009 does.

 

[sr71plt]

S-DES

Henry Ford didnt re-invent the wheel every time he built a Model T. Detroit in 2009 does.

However, in 2009 it isn't called a (big) wheel, it's called a CEO, and it sucks all of the life and assets out of the company.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Amen Brother Floyd.

 

[DeeZire]

Here's your modern-day Model T, the Tata Nano made in India. $2000 without AC. Zero to 60 in 23 seconds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

I don't think you can compare the Model T to the current crop of American cars, however you could compare it to a riding mower, which would bring the price down considerably.

 

[FatDino]

I didn't know you could go wrong in hell.

 

[oggbashan]

Here's your modern-day Model T, the Tata Nano made in India. $2000 without AC. Zero to 60 in 23 seconds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

...

The Nano is designed for a specific market. The Model T was the first (and last) car designed for a world market. Both aimed to bring motoring to the masses who couldn't otherwise afford them.

The Nano has been dogged by political problems. It was intended to be sold at less than the current price but...

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Here's your modern-day Model T, the Tata Nano made in India. $2000 without AC. Zero to 60 in 23 seconds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano

I don't think you can compare the Model T to the current crop of American cars, however you could compare it to a riding mower, which would bring the price down considerably.

I CAN COMPARE THE WORK DAY AND WORK WEEK AND DECLINE IN PRICE AND INCREASE IN PAY. PLUS THE MODEL T OF 1921 WAS VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS THE 1908 MODEL, SO I CAN COMPARE THEM. I MIGHT EVEN COMPARE A 1985 FORD WITH ITS 1995 SISTER IF THEIR DIFFERENCES ARE ENTIRELY COSMETIC, AS THE TAURUS WAS.

LET ME ADD A CURIOUS NOTE ABOUT OUR TIMES. COMPANIES SELL THE EXACT SAME GOODS TO DIVERSE INCOME GROUPS FOR DIFFERENT PRICES. IF YOU GO TO A DEALER TO BUY A CAR ITS LIKELY YOU'LL GET THE CAR FOR MORE OR LESS THAN I PAY BASED ON OUR BUYING HABITS. ITS A NEW TWIST IN THE BUTING TALE.

 

[Liar]

Let's use calculators. In 1977 I paid $75 for a decent calculator. The same calculator today costs less than $20 (adjusting for inflation, the price is about $5 in 1977 money).

In 1980 I bought a computer with 48K memory for $1500. My present computer with 1.2 gigabytes of memory cost me $600.... or about $200 in 1980 money.

A modern car should cost you about $30.

Moore's Law does not apply to every commodity.


Ok, back to the original question: Where did you go wrong? The cancer of the megacorp struck. Market domination lead to complacency. Market domination and domination in financial power lead to stifled competition, corruption of politics and market stagnation. The underdogs looked for having an edge tomorrow, the Big Dogs looked for domination today.

Case in point: Tucker.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Moore's Law does not apply to every commodity.


Ok, back to the original question: Where did you go wrong? The cancer of the megacorp struck. Market domination lead to complacency. Market domination and domination in financial power lead to stifled competition, corruption of politics and market stagnation. The underdogs looked for having an edge tomorrow, the Big Dogs looked for domination today.

Case in point: Tucker.

ARE THE PROBLEMS TOO BIG TO FIX? That is, will Washington and WAL-MART and the teacher's union passively accept any dilution of their power?

I dont believe they will.

I read somewhere that once an institution gets a foot-hold the institution wont change and must be destroyed before any change is possible.

 

[xssve]

Same thing that happened to Wal Mart after Walton died.

Walton was an organizational genius: in the days before computerized inventory management, he organized his staff in way that made it easier for them to do their jobs: department floor managers were in charge of inventory and ordering for their departments, they were on the spot providing customer service, and able to restock and/or reorder when a particular item got low, order larger quantities of hot selling items, discontinue slow sellers, and even take customer requests for items not carried in stock.

Customer service and employee morale was top priority, management was organized around a relatively flat structure of floor mangers bennies and profit sharing offered, keeping employee morale and compensation high and reduced inventory theft, employees felt like part of the team, not just interchangeable parts.

After Walton died, during the midst of the information economy boom, the whole managment systems was altered to reduce costs, departmental floor managers stripped of their autonomy, replaced by computerized inventory managers who worked directly for central management, usually working geographic areas instead of stores, ordering itself is completely computerized, each store has a sister store, and they both receive the exact same stock in identical quantities, based on demographic research, employees run cash registers and stock inventory, period.

The Office in one of these places is a room filled with computers and stacks of printouts, even the environmental controls, heating and air conditioning are controlled form corporate headquarters in Bentonville, and security teams are employed to scrutinize employees as well as customers, and the entire place i run like a high security installation, they're watching you all the time. Employees are often sacked on flimsy pretext's just before their Five year probationary period is up, and they are fully vested in the benefits program.

i.e., the difference between then and now, the old timers told me, is that Walton cared about his people, or at least managed to give that impression, and his management innovations gave Wal Mart the edge over the competition - K Mart at that time was cutting costs by firing older, higher paid employees, replacing them with minimum wage grunts, leading to low morale, dirty stores, etc.

The new management, under his sons, is doing what K Mart was doing then: they care about profits and stockholder returns, and take little interest in doing anything but maintaining the machine to that end.

 

[cloudy]

Walton was an organizational genius: in the days before computerized inventory management, he organized his staff in way that made it easier for them to do their jobs: department floor managers were in charge of inventory and ordering for their departments, they were on the spot providing customer service, and able to restock and/or reorder when a particular item got low, order larger quantities of hot selling items, discontinue slow sellers, and even take customer requests for items not carried in stock.

Not so much as you would think. Know where he learned it? At JCPenney, who was doing all those things before Walmart was even a gleam in Sam Walton's eye. He was a manager for JCPenney for years.

 

[xssve]

Not so much as you would think. Know where he learned it? At JCPenney, who was doing all those things before Walmart was even a gleam in Sam Walton's eye. He was a manager for JCPenney for years.

That's probably right, I haven't actually read much about him, most of what I know is from Kevin Phillips and working for them for a while, talking to the old timers.

Point is, firms are run for the benefit of stockholders now, for the most part, and their focus is on profits, not necessarily sales or competition, but mostly cost cutting, hence outsourcing, computerization, reducing benefits etc.; variable costs, labor primarily.

 

[xssve]

What I remember about Penny's back in the day, was that they had this cool ass little tramway type thingy that ran between the cashiers station on the floor, and the office which was up above on a balcony, and cash and receipts would be shuttled back and forth in that way.

Fascinating stuff to a child.

 

[xssve]

That, and basement sales - women are fucking animals, lol.