When did you first know?

[starrkers]

A question for the ... non-straight (god I hate the english language sometimes, so wordy, but still so lacking in decent terminology) from a curious straight.

I was talking to my daughter (well, she was talking to me) the other day, saying how she loves the group of friends she's with now, and how they know all the good gossip, etc. Like X (sister of one of the group) is bi.

And a couple of weeks ago she said in passing (about her lack of boyfirend) that some of her friends think she's a lesbian. Then she hurriedly added "but I'm not". (to which I assured her it didn't matter what she was, as long as it was happy)

This all got me wondering. I mean, I didn't have my first boyfirend till I was 17 (yeah, I know. shaddup!). X is 14. Can she really know what her preference (or lack of) really is at this age? Can my girl be positive she just thinks the current crop of available males are yuck and not all males?

I dunno, and I don't mean to be rude or anything, but hetero is kinda the expected sexuality - the society norm and all that.

So when did you come to terms with the fact that it wasn't for you?

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[The_Fractal_King]

Technically I'm straight but I cleave closer to asexual -- possibly because I seriously dislike any form of intimate contact beyond hugging (which provides a barrier in the form of clothing).

I probably first started to get the idea that I was outside the norm when I was about 14 and sat down at my computer to find a practical description of masturbating because the I knew of the concept but the mechanics had never occured to me. Most of elementary school was like that, actually. The "family life" classes started then and people started getting a concept of sex and sexuality.

There was one incident that is amusing in retrospect. Some of my friends asked me whether gay or lesbian sex was "better." Obviously they were curious about which one turned me on. I said something to the effect that gay sex made more 'sense' because insertion was possible, the idea of porn was totally alien.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I first started questioning at around 12 or 13. At 14 I had a boyfriend who I later was promised to (kinda like a teenage engagement). Thing is, I really did love him, and in a way kinda still do. But when comes down to it, my attraction to those of my same sex never lessened, but grew.

But ya know.....I had LOTS of friends that never had boyfriends throughout jr. high or high school. The guys available just never appealed to them. Most, if not all, are happily married and mothers, some are grandmothers.


Don't worry....she's just waiting for the right one. Whoever it is...

The more I learn the less patience I have with the gay/straight dichotomization of people's sexuality. It wasn't that way in the classical world. It doesn't appear to have been that way in the early and High Middle Ages. It wasn't until the 14th Century that Europe got into homophobia in a big way and it wasn't until the 19th Century that English even had words for Homosexual and Heterosexual. On a scale of 1-10 where the ends are all one way or the other, most of us fit somewhere in between. Whether we ever act out those attractions is a different question but many an individual has fallen in love, gotten married and produced children before deciding that their true "nature" was in the other direction. I have no answer for how things should be and I'm too old to be curious about the appeal of other guys. If I were quite a bit younger, who knows? Heck, I didn't even find out how much fun girls were until I was in the university!

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[Carnevil9]

When did you first know? I'm assuming that you mean, when did you decide, right? Clearly, one's choice of sexual partners is a conscious choice, isn't it? People are born with free will, after all.......Carney

 

[Misty_Morning]

When did you first know? I'm assuming that you mean, when did you decide, right? Clearly, one's choice of sexual partners is a conscious choice, isn't it? People are born with free will, after all.......Carney

You're a fucking idiot.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

When did you first know? I'm assuming that you mean, when did you decide, right? Clearly, one's choice of sexual partners is a conscious choice, isn't it? People are born with free will, after all.......Carney

No, Carny, not even close.

 

[ImpishSeraph]

I'm hetero (is that the word, lol) but ever since I was in high school, my best friends and circle of friends were mostly gay. I was always a tomboy and just fit in better I guess with them. I don't know if this is the reason for getting along so well with them or not but it's my guess. Still to this day and different set of friends they are mostly gay. My parents thought I was for the longest time. I think for 4 years they kept saying to me that I could be honest with them and that I didn't need to hide it from them. It took forever to convince them that I wasn't. I think at one point I was like "fine! I'm gay so quit asking me." My first boyfriend was at age 18, and they still thought I was. They still tell this story to their friends

 

[Carnevil9]

You're a fucking idiot.

Well, that's nice. Clearly, you disagree with me. Other than PC dogma, can you explain exactly why you have a different opinion than I do?

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

From earliest childhood, I was aware that I preferred girls/women. I dated boys and liked some of them in high-school. But, I embraced my desire for women in my late teens and (with a few memorable exceptions) have been with women exclusively since then.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Well, that's nice. Clearly, you disagree with me. Other than PC dogma, can you explain exactly why you have a different opinion than I do?

There is so much brain research going on that suggests strongly that sexual preference/orientation is congenital that to suggest the idea someone just gets up some morning and decides to change shows a truly sad lack of awareness. Even some of the more Fundamentalist leaders are being "set back a bit" but the research. I don't recall which it was but one of the more prominent ones even went so far as to say that should the day come that it was clearly "proven" that sexual orientation is innate, his church would have to completely change its tune . . . and would do so.

 

[Carnevil9]

There is so much brain research going on that suggests strongly that sexual preference/orientation is congenital that to suggest the idea someone just gets up some morning and decides to change shows a truly sad lack of awareness. Even some of the more Fundamentalist leaders are being "set back a bit" but the research. I don't recall which it was but one of the more prominent ones even went so far as to say that should the day come that it was clearly "proven" that sexual orientation is innate, his church would have to completely change its tune . . . and would do so.

Yeah, that's about what I expected. Vague references to "research" with no actual facts to back it up.

However, my question was to Misty Morning, and I'll look forward to his/her reply.......Carney

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yeah, that's about what I expected. Vague references to "research" with no actual facts to back it up.

However, my question was to Misty Morning, and I'll look forward to his/her reply.......Carney

You could start your re-education here and follow up on the bibliography. That's assuming that you choose to do so, of course.

 

[Misty_Morning]

.....

 

[The_Fractal_King]

Well, that's nice. Clearly, you disagree with me. Other than PC dogma, can you explain exactly why you have a different opinion than I do?

Well there's this quote from the APA in 1994 that might have some effect:

The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.

Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments.

If you spent some time looking through reputable medical journals I'm sure you could find what they're referring to.

 

[Carnevil9]

You could start your re-education here and follow up on the bibliography. That's assuming that you choose to do so, of course.

Thanks for the link. Now you're getting into the spirit of scientific search for truth, rather than PC dogma. I applaud you.

Here is the salient point from your link:

As the study shows, homosexuality cannot be purely genetic, otherwise, all identical twins would have the same sexual orientation as their twin. This is obviously not the case.

I think my point stands: homosexuality is a choice. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it; quite the contrary, I think it is a fine choice of lifestyle. Just don't try to tell me that it isn't a choice to begin with......Carney

 

[The_Fractal_King]

Thanks for the link. Now you're getting into the spirit of scientific search for truth, rather than PC dogma. I applaud you.

Here is the salient point from your link:



I think my point stands: homosexuality is a choice. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it; quite the contrary, I think it is a fine choice of lifestyle. Just don't try to tell me that it isn't a choice to begin with......Carney

But that's wiki. It can say anything.

Best to look at the links provided. Like this one that does show a strong genetic factor in many studies:

http://members.aol.com/slevay/page22.html
Homosexuality clusters in particular families, especially among siblings. Thus, the brothers of gay men are reported to have about a 22 percent chance of themselves being gay, whereas the brothers of heterosexual men have only about a 4 percent chance of being gay (Pillard and Weinrich 1986). Similarly, the sisters of lesbians have an increased chance of being lesbian (Bailey and Benishay 1993).

and

One early study did report a near-100% concordance rate for male monozygotic twins (Kallmann 1952). More recent studies have come up with much lower figures, but have generally reported higher concordance rates for monozygotic than for dizygotic twins, consistent with a genetic influence on sexual orientation. In one study the concordance rate was 52% for male monozygotic twins compared with 22% for male dizygotic twins (Bailey and Pillard 1995). A comparable study of female twins came up with concordances of 48% and 16% respectively (Bailey, Pillard et al. 1993).


Personally I think the most important thing written in that wiki article is that "It is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person's sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people."

 

[Carnevil9]

Thanks, Fractal King, for playing along. You are a good sport, and I appreciate your attempts at employing the scientific method. And I agree that wikipedia is not the end-all of scientific truthfulness. But it is certainly competitive with the AOL link that you cite!

However, website veracity aside, I think you will agree, anything less than 100% "concordance" for monozygotic twins implies that queerness is NOT inherited, NOT genetic, and NOT automatic. Therefore, it is a conscious choice made by a person with free will.

Again, I do not have a problem with this! The more guys who prefer other guy's assholes to sweet pussy, the better it is for me! So I am not complaining. I just don't like to see people deluded by PC dogma.......Carney

 

[Stella_Omega]

I knew I was... confused... by about twelve, perhaps? Before that, I was not confused, I was waiting for my dick to grow. It never occurred to me to worry about it, mention it, or compete athletically-- nor did it occur to me to eschew dresses. I was confused-- I just didn't know it!

By fourteen I was falling in love with girls, in some nebulous kind of way. I wanted to kiss them, and I wanted to take care of them. I wanted to carry books and all of that. And at the very same time, I fantasized about Batman, Robin Hood, and the boy down the street.

Around sixteen, I started menstruating-- and KNEW what sex was all about. Absolutely, without a doubt. It was obvious that it was easier to get boys in bed than girls-- also, I couldn't figure out what to do with a girl, if I got one into bed, my dad's Playboy magazines being less than helpful on women-women sex. And it was glaringly obvious that my penis was not going to appear. So, I enjoyed being a girl for a very long time-- it helped that the Glam Rockers gave me a feminine male image to look at. Most of my boyfriends were pretty-- prettier than me, sometimes (at least, I thought so)...

By that time, though, I was quite aware that I wanted to be a boy-- and that I was bisexual.

 

[Emerald_Dragon]

Thanks, Fractal King, for playing along. You are a good sport, and I appreciate your attempts at employing the scientific method. And I agree that wikipedia is not the end-all of scientific truthfulness. But it is certainly competitive with the AOL link that you cite!

However, website veracity aside, I think you will agree, anything less than 100% "concordance" for monozygotic twins implies that queerness is NOT inherited, NOT genetic, and NOT automatic. Therefore, it is a conscious choice made by a person with free will.

Again, I do not have a problem with this! The more guys who prefer other guy's assholes to sweet pussy, the better it is for me! So I am not complaining. I just don't like to see people deluded by PC dogma.......Carney

I think that expecting someone to have a single gene for homosexuallity is stupid.

Eye color comes from about 12 different gene sequences in the human body. This is where you get so much of the variations of hazel eyes for example.

I would expect that it is somewhat similar for homosexuallity as well.

I guess there could be a 'choice' involved. But that choice is whether or not to deny what you feel is right for you. Rather like being naturally right handed and teaching yourself to be left handed. Or being born ambidexterous and switching back and forth or chosing one to be dominant.

As for twins having to be the same all the time, how do you explain identical twins that are called mirror image twins because one is left handed and one is right handed. I grew up with a pair at my school so dont even tell me that that is my imagination. How do you explain another set of identical twins that I grew up with where one had blue eyes and one had one blue eye and one green.

This would be caused by recessive genes expressing themselves because somehow the dominant ones got shut off. The twins are still genetically identical, it is just that different genes are being expressed. So I guess that shoots your twin theory right out of the water. Stop being so narrow minded and start using your brain.


I would also ask people to remember that homosexuallity is not limited to the human race. There are documented cases of animals that are mated (easiest to observe in the animals that mate for life) to the same gender. This I think strongly influences my personal belief that genetics plays a very heavy role in determining peoples 'preferences'.

 

[starrkers]

I first started questioning at around 12 or 13. At 14 I had a boyfriend who I later was promised to (kinda like a teenage engagement). Thing is, I really did love him, and in a way kinda still do. But when comes down to it, my attraction to those of my same sex never lessened, but grew.

But ya know.....I had LOTS of friends that never had boyfriends throughout jr. high or high school. The guys available just never appealed to them. Most, if not all, are happily married and mothers, some are grandmothers.


Don't worry....she's just waiting for the right one. Whoever it is...

Oh god, I'm not worried about her not finding someone at all. I wouldn't want to 'know' most of her age group either
She is just so sure she's hetero, I find it funny. Hell, when I was her age I wasn't even sure what sex was, let alone who I wanted to do it with!

When did you first know? I'm assuming that you mean, when did you decide, right? Clearly, one's choice of sexual partners is a conscious choice, isn't it? People are born with free will, after all.......Carney

You're a fucking idiot.

No, Carny, not even close.

Thank you Misty, VM. Carny, I do wish you would bother to actually read the thread rather than just the title before flinging your weighted comments.

 

[starrkers]

I never acted on my attration to members of my same sex till I was 36. Too much taboo and potential social "disgrace".


I envy the younger generations....they have much less biotry to deal with.

Misty, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of when asking this question.

I think you and I are a similar age. When I was a teen any boy thought to be "queer" was shunned as possibly contagious. The mere possibility of gayness was an automatic ticket to the class of the outcast. I'm not sure lesbianism even existed in our teen minds - bit like Queen Victoria.

With that kind of undercurrent, I would expect total confusionn in the mind of a teen homosexual person. They expect to be attracted to the opposite sex and then find they're not. What could be more mortifying to a teen mind - that pressure cooker age of peer pressure - than to be different?
Christ, it must've been horrendous.

Either my daughter's group is seriously enlightened, or times have definitely changed (I'm thinking a little from column A, a little from column B).

 

[Stella_Omega]

here's one; My daughter, recently mentioned that she'd always assumed herself to be bisexual-- and she said it is a bit of an adjustment for her to realise that she is, in fact, hetero. She said that she wasn't expecting a default preference.

 

[Carnevil9]

.....Thank you Misty, VM. Carny, I do wish you would bother to actually read the thread rather than just the title before flinging your weighted comments.

Well, that's just silly, now isn't it? The title of the thread is "When did you first know?"

If I hadn't read the thread, I wouldn't even know that it was about sexuality, now would I? For all I would know, it could have been about when I realized that Rosebud was the sled.......Carney (who really wishes people would think before they type)