What's the appeal - - Honestly

[Britva415]

Maybe you could define what you mean by "seduction?"

Because when I hear that word I think of Pickup Artist strategies like Negging, Neuroliguistic Programming pseudoscience, "escalation of physical touch," and nonsense like that. Is that what you're talking about?

No, but clearly this entire tangent is unappreciated, and I have nothing to prove, so I'm dropping it.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Could it be related to cultural norms about gender roles too? If you grew up being taught that women don't enjoy or desire sex as much as men, or that women aren't supposed to initiate flirting or express interest, then I guess you'd have to write creepy songs about a guy lying about the weather to talk his way into a sleepover

Well, for me personally, it probably has a fair bit to do with having grown up watching my grandmother sing that song to my grandpa while enticing him to dance with her.

 

[iwatchus]

Two back to back posts with opposite opinions.

And I don't disagree with @NuclearFairy very often. I am several decades older than her, so it is not generational, I don't think.

To me, that song feeds the belief by too many that when a woman says no, she actually means try harder. The most famous recording of that (Dean Martin?) was very playful, but the words really bother me. I think songs like this (and especially this one) help young men justify thinking with their balls and never accepting no as an answer.

I got in a long tirade in another thread a month or so ago about an artist's responsibility with their work. To me, this one crosses that line. And it is not close. But I am going to drop off this now before I blow gasket.

 

[Britva415]

I see that it was a mistake to imagine that it would have gone without saying, but, I'm very doubtful that prefacing everything I had written with "I believe, based on my experience" would have made any difference.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

To me, that song feeds the belief by too many that when a woman says no, she actually means try harder. The most famous recording of that (Dean Martin?) was very playful, but the words really bother me.

But that's the way it used to be. Playing Hard to Get was a BIG part of seduction.

That back and forth playful banter when both parties already knew the outcome.

 

[djrip]

Could be a generational difference in terminology?

To me most of those examples don't feel like they're in the same category as pickup artist stuff. I see "flirting to show interest," as being distinct from "strategic behaviors intended to win sex," but maybe that distinction doesn't exist for some people?

Could it be related to cultural norms about gender roles too? If you grew up being taught that women don't enjoy or desire sex as much as men, or that women aren't supposed to initiate flirting or express interest, then I guess you'd have to write creepy songs about a guy lying about the weather to talk his way into a sleepover

Yeah they're distinct; that's why I said PUA BS was stupid shitty seduction

 

[Kelliezgirl]

And I don't disagree with @NuclearFairy very often. I am several decades older than her, so it is not generational, I don't think.

To me, that song feeds the belief by too many that when a woman says no, she actually means try harder. The most famous recording of that (Dean Martin?) was very playful, but the words really bother me. I think songs like this (and especially this one) help young men justify thinking with their balls and never accepting no as an answer.

I got in a long tirade in another thread a month or so ago about an artist's responsibility with their work. To me, this one crosses that line. And it is not close. But I am going to drop off this now before I blow gasket.

But that's a two way street. There are plenty of women pushing the "playing hard to get" game.
"Make him chase you" and all that. So, some women create an expectation that men have to chase and ask repeatedly, other women refer to that as "rapey".

 

[EmilyMiller]

Could it be related to cultural norms about gender roles too? If you grew up being taught that women don't enjoy or desire sex as much as men, or that women aren't supposed to initiate flirting or express interest, then I guess you'd have to write creepy songs about a guy lying about the weather to talk his way into a sleepover

This

It really seems to stem from what I said above. Women - or at least good girls - don’t want sex and have to be talked into it.

A) Woman like sex - yes it’s true! B) If I tell you ‘no,’ I fucking means ‘no,’ not ‘try harder.’

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

It wasn't until the last 15 years or so and some connection to Bill Cosby that it got a bad reputation.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

'What's in this drink' had no ill meaning then. It was more like drinking 'courage'.

Probably not until the 80s or 90s and some of the bad things happening in clubs did it change.

 

[iwatchus]

'What's in this drink' had no ill meaning then. It was more like drinking 'courage'.

Probably not until the 80s or 90s and some of the bad things happening in clubs did it change.

Spiking drinks got more prevalent in the 80's, sure. But that just meant the rapists got more ... Subtle?

It also made it scarier for a woman, because being strong or carrying mace was no longer enough. But there were so many other ways of coercion back then that are disallowed officially now. Want to keep your job? That certainly still exists, but it was more prevalent 75 years ago. Ans husbands raping their wives was legal.

 

[Erozetta]

From my perspective, seduction isn't an act done to women, but one they participate in. If they aren't into it, they aren't being seduced, they are being coerced. Coercion is not seduction.

Seduction is appealing tona person's interests to get them to notice you. It's painting someone a dnd mini and giving it to them. It's baking them cookies or making them dinner, it's dancing, it's watching a movie movie together, it's having a conversation. Seduction is understanding the person you're interested in and playing to their kinks before you ever take a shot at being with them..

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I definitely think of "seduction" as a mutual thing. Rape or assault are not seduction in my mind.

Also, I think it's normal and okay for a woman (or a man or anyone else) to want more attention and flirtation and so on before getting to the sex. Or to be interested but not yet sure how far she wants to go. Or to change her mind, then change her mind back, then decide she needs more time to make up her mind but want the guy to keep making an effort meanwhile. Or to want to test the guy a bit to find out how serious he is. The guy can play along if he wants, and if not he can go away and try to play with someone else. As long as she remains interested and he keeps trying, I'd call it seduction. When either of them completely loses interest, the seduction is over.

It's also normal for a woman to be trying to get a guy to like her, making flirty or naughty comments, "accidentally" touching him, asking him out on a date, or simply telling him she wants to fuck. That is all seduction.

Probably the most normal thing in the world is for two people to be unsure how far they actually want something to go but both of them want to find out how much the other one likes them, and then they wind up seducing each other.

Edit: Erozetta just said it better than I did.

 

[YDB95]

'What's in this drink' had no ill meaning then. It was more like drinking 'courage'.

Probably not until the 80s or 90s and some of the bad things happening in clubs did it change.

I don't like that song very much, but it's only fair to point out the woman is pretty clearly hinting that she does want to stay, but social mores of the time dictate that she must pretend otherwise. Which doesn't mean anyone has to like the song - again, I don't - but context matters.

 

[Britva415]

Seduction is whatever seduces someone.

If it seduced them, then it was seduction.

If it didn't seduce them, then it might have been an attempt at seduction but it failed and so there was no seduction.

None of this involves coercion or manipulation.

That's it. Seduction can be a lot of things. In some sense, it's whatever works - where "works" means the seduced person allowed it to happen, used their agency to choose to play along with it, even lean in to it. They made the choice to participate, they made the choice to consummate.

The idea that this choice does not involve the efforts of the seducer is bizarre. I do get that it doesn't always. Of course a person can choose to be the pursuer, theirself, in which case they aren't getting seduced by the other person at all, are they.

But if someone is pursuing seduction, maybe it works and maybe it doesn't, and obviously whether it works or not is the choice of the one who's being pursued. And obviously women make this choice one way or the other all the time. Not every time, but very often.

With that in mind

the seduction of women by men is how women choose which guys to sleep with.

Someone could pretend I mean it's the only way, and spank me for making such a silly statement, but that would be disingenuous.

This isn't even about projecting how or what women think. Like, not at all. I don't know what she was thinking when she chose. And I never pretended to.

It's just the bare, simple meaning of the words. If a guy pursues a woman and, based on his efforts, his manners, his charm, his behavioral attractiveness, she chooses to sleep with him, then, what can I say? She chose to sleep with him, because he seduced her and she obviously liked it enough to choose.

I'm not saying this is the only way it ever happens, but the push-back against this plain, simple truth is surprising. Of course she could choose to not be seduced. Of course she could choose to pursue seduction, herself. Of course there are a zillion other ways she could choose whether or not to sleep with a guy. But let's not pretend guys don't pursue women and women don't choose to allow themselves to be seduced.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't like that song very much, but it's only fair to point out the woman is pretty clearly hinting that she does want to stay, but social mores of the time dictate that she must pretend otherwise. Which doesn't mean anyone has to like the song - again, I don't - but context matters.

Great point, it's a completely CONSENSUAL back and forth.
If a couple has a completely normal back and forth over where they are going to dinner, she wants Italian, he's in the mood for a steakhouse, and he convinces her to get a steak only an insane person would argue that he forced her to go to that restaurant.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I’m glad the world has changed at least a little.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Seduction is whatever seduces someone.

If it seduced them, then it was seduction.

If it didn't seduce them, then it might have been an attempt at seduction but it failed and so there was no seduction.

None of this involves coercion or manipulation.

That's it. Seduction can be a lot of things. In some sense, it's whatever works - where "works" means the seduced person allowed it to happen, used their agency to choose to play along with it, even lean in to it. They made the choice to participate, they made the choice to consummate.

The idea that this choice does not involve the efforts of the seducer is bizarre. I do get that it doesn't always. Of course a person can choose to be the pursuer, theirself, in which case they aren't getting seduced by the other person at all, are they.

But if someone is pursuing seduction, maybe it works and maybe it doesn't, and obviously whether it works or not is the choice of the one who's being pursued. And obviously women make this choice one way or the other all the time. Not every time, but very often.

With that in mind

Someone could pretend I mean it's the only way, and spank me for making such a silly statement, but that would be disingenuous.

It's just the bare, simple meaning of the words. If a guy pursues a woman and, based on his efforts, his manners, his charm, his behavioral attractiveness, she chooses to sleep with him, then, what can I say? She chose to sleep with him, because he seduced her and she obviously liked it enough to choose.

I'm not saying this is the only way it ever happens, but the push-back against this plain, simple truth is surprising. Of course she could choose to not be seduced. Of course she could choose to pursue seduction, herself. Of course there are a zillion other ways she could choose whether or not to sleep with a guy. But let's not pretend guys don't pursue women and women don't choose to allow themselves to be seduced.

Well said.
Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Men will have sex with just about anyone that says yes.
Who has the most sex? Gay men.
Why? Because there are no gatekeepers.

That doesn't mean women don't want sex or don't enjoy sex or anything else like that.
However, the consequences for women are higher, physically, emotionally, and socially so it makes perfect sense that they aren't as promiscuous.

Seduction is the bargaining men do to convince women to open the gate. It's a consensual negotiation.

Do women seduce men as well? Of course, but the bar is a lot lower there. Men barely know how to close the gate.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Well said.
Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Men will have sex with just about anyone that says yes.
Who has the most sex? Gay men.
Why? Because there are no gatekeepers.

That doesn't mean women don't want sex or don't enjoy sex or anything else like that.
However, the consequences for women are higher, physically, emotionally, and socially so it makes perfect sense that they aren't as promiscuous.

Seduction is the bargaining men do to convince women to open the gate. It's a consensual negotiation.

Do women seduce men as well? Of course, but the bar is a lot lower there. Men barely know how to close the gate.

In the world of singles, I think you're basically right, though I do know a single guy who is so attractive (rich, tall, confident, funny) that he is the gatekeeper a lot more often than most guys. I'm not really sure how often the ladies really want nothing but sex though. I think they say that to get in the gate but they're hoping to stay in the gate. If that makes sense. Anyway, at least sometimes the roles do get reversed.

Also, as a happily married man who loves and appreciates my wife and wants to stay happily married to her and would never intentionally hurt her, I can say the gate is closed and that women have sometimes tried to open it. Very flattering and sometimes tempting in a physical sense but just can't happen.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

In the world of singles, I think you're basically right, though I do know a single guy who is so attractive (rich, tall, confident, funny) that he is the gatekeeper a lot more often than most guys. I'm not really sure how often the ladies really want nothing but sex though. I think they say that to get in the gate but they're hoping to stay in the gate. If that makes sense. Anyway, at least sometimes the roles do get reversed.

Also, as a happily married man who loves and appreciates my wife and wants to stay happily married to her and would never intentionally hurt her, I can say the gate is closed and that women have sometimes tried to open it. Very flattering and sometimes tempting in a physical sense but just can't happen.

There are certainly outliers to anything.

There does seem to be something of a phenomenon with some women who find a man who is unavailable more attractive.
I suspect it has to do with the sense of challenge.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

There are certainly outliers to anything.

There does seem to be something of a phenomenon with some women who find a man who is unavailable more attractive.
I suspect it has to do with the sense of challenge.

That is interesting. I haven't put much thought into why it might be....

I do notice that most women seem to trust me more when they find out I'm married. Even though they almost never trying to seduce me or anything, they just seem to switch to the assumption that I must be a fairly decent guy, so they let their guard down a bit. At least that's how it seems to me. Once that barrier is crossed, perhaps it's easier for feelings to develop.

IDK though, I'm not in anyone's mind enough to know for sure.

 

[Britva415]

The beautiful thing about generalizations is that they don't have to be about anyone in particular. Yet any time someone tries to employ a generalization, there's always someone or multiple someones who just ignore (if they're being charitable) or outright flame (if they aren't) the utility of a generalization because outliers exist.

Of course outliers exist. That's why it's a generalization.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Sometimes the generalizations interest me, sometimes the outliers do.

 

[PapaRomantic]

What was this thread about, again? Seems like it went very far sideways....

 

[TheLobster]

Could it be related to cultural norms about gender roles too? If you grew up being taught that women don't enjoy or desire sex as much as men, or that women aren't supposed to initiate flirting or express interest,

Could it be...? Is Penny actually attempting to empathize for once, and trying to see things from a different perspective, rather than quickly dismissing anything that doesn't agree with the One Correct Stance™ that everyone must share?

then I guess you'd have to write creepy songs about a guy lying about the weather to talk his way into a sleepover

Ah, never mind, it's just all the same old routine of her using rolling-face ridicule in lieu of an actual argument. Disappointing.