What's so great about democracy?

70/30

~
Joined
Jul 4, 2002
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If everyone hates us.

Where would we be if the Coalition of the Willing (czech, bulgaria, spain, UK, poland, israel, etc) and the Coalition of the Accepting (qatar, turkey in a couple days, jordan, kuwait, mexico, canada, etc) actually had a popular vote on whether to stand behind GWB?

Yep. GWB and Sharon. Not the most able ranch hands. The MDCs can't even be sold on invasion, in this type of war LDCs and MDCs must be on the invader's side. If not, terror. Looking at Saudi stats, maybe Libya, Iran and Iraq aren't the ultimate destinations.

Overview http://www.bsos.umd.edu/SADAT/ME_SURVEY.HTM

Under the sponsorship of the Sadat Chair for Peace and Development at the University of Maryland, Shibley Telhami prepared a public opinion survey for Zogby International, which interviewed 2,620 men and women in Egypt, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Jordan. The survey was conducted between February 19 and March 11. It focuses on perceptions of the United States in specific political scenarios and on views of United States policy abroad. Previous polls done by Shibley Telhami and by Zogby International in the Middle East showed that neither United States policy nor the United States was viewed favorably.

Summary of Findings

On attitudes toward the U.S.
Very few people in the survey countries have a favorable opinion of the United States: Only 4% in Saudi Arabia, 6% in Morocco and Jordan, 13% in Egypt, and 32% in Lebanon.

Most people say that their attitudes toward the U.S. are based on American policies, not on American values.

On possible war with Iraq
Despite the U.S. claim that it intends to spread democratic values and ideals throughout the world, war with Iraq will bring less democracy in the view of 95% of Saudis, 66% of Moroccans, 60% of Egyptians, 58% of Jordanians, and 74% of Lebanese.

More than three-fourths of Egyptians, Lebanese, and an overwhelming majority (90%) of Moroccans think that war with Iraq will bring less peace in the Middle East. More than half of Jordanians (60%) think that war with Iraq will bring less peace in the Middle East.

More than three fourths of Lebanese, Moroccans, and Jordanians, as well as nearly two-thirds of Egyptians, think that war with Iraq will worsen prospects for settlement of the Arab-Israeli dispute.

Some striking results were prompted by the question of whether or not a war in Iraq will bring more or less terrorism. In the view of 97% of Saudis, 87% of Moroccans, 81% of Lebanese, 74% of Egyptians and 78% of Jordanians, war in Iraq will bring more terrorism........
 
Despite the U.S. claim that it intends to spread democratic values and ideals throughout the world, war with Iraq will bring less democracy in the view of 95% of Saudis, 66% of Moroccans, 60% of Egyptians, 58% of Jordanians, and 74% of Lebanese.

Eerie how those percentages mirror the percentages of illiterate people in those countries ...

I don't think I would be taking lessons on democracy from those countries, and especially not from KSA.
 
Maybe they hate us because we aren't a democracy.

Majority rule and all that.

Figure it out.
 
Now that the USA is the only superpower...you get to be the most Loved & the most Hated country in the world at the same time.


Maybe you guys should slip a few hundred billion or so to Russia so they can make a go of the whole Evil Empire thing again..
 
70/30 said:
On possible war with Iraq


More than three-fourths of Egyptians, Lebanese, and an overwhelming majority (90%) of Moroccans think that war with Iraq will bring less peace in the Middle East. More than half of Jordanians (60%) think that war with Iraq will bring less peace in the Middle East.

True. If Israel retalliates against Iraq this time when the Scuds start falling, as they said they would, this would leave Bush and Blair being cast as the aggressors against all Muslims everywhere. The present Arab 'allies' on board at the moment would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to fight alongside Israel against Iraq.

The war could very quickly spread out of control...

Something Bush must have understood (or am I giving him too much credit here?)...

If he did understand but still goes ahead with the invasion then he truly qualifies for what I've always thought of him as being...

The most dangerous man on the planet...

ppman
 
miles said:
Maybe they hate us because we aren't a democracy.

Majority rule and all that.

Figure it out.

I never said we were a democracy. We're in the democracy building business though. Business is about to be boombing.
 
Re: Re: What's so great about democracy?

p_p_man said:
Something Bush must have understood (or am I giving him too much credit here?)...

ppman

I am not necessarily against military action against Saddam, but any credit that you give Bush is too much.
 
Re: Re: What's so great about democracy?

p_p_man said:
True. If Israel retalliates against Iraq
ppman

GWB has Sharon under control. Or is it the other way around? Or do they have precisely the same goals?

All spell problems. At least we can put our Muslims in internment camps. After that, just stay away from the coast. Pocatello, Idaho is supposed to be the safe haven of choice.
 
Whoops forgot about North Korea. They haven't tested. However, I'm pretty sure they can hit something, it's not like they are intercepting an object speeding through the atmosphere.
 
North Korea's main state-run newspaper, Rodong Sinmun, said Saturday, "the U.S. can attack the DPRK any moment. The U.S. seeks to round off its preparations for a nuclear war against the DPRK at its final phase and mount a pre-emptive nuclear attack on it any time," it added.

Time to start counting the days instead of the weeks. The MidEast uses DPRK as an example why Iraq is about eliminating Islam. However, they'll still find a way to paint KIM Il as the victim of the cowboy imperialists. Common enemies make everything seem a little strange.
 
Lazarus1280 said:
God I am praying this doesn't turn into World War III.

I hope you're praying very, very hard in that case...

ppman
 
70/30 said:
On attitudes toward the U.S.
Very few people in the survey countries have a favorable opinion of the United States: Only 4% in Saudi Arabia, 6% in Morocco and Jordan, 13% in Egypt, and 32% in Lebanon.

Yeah but they love us in Baghdad.
 
Polls from people in countries run by dictators that have state controlled media are very persuasive.

Right.
 
Problem Child said:
Polls from people in countries run by dictators that have state controlled media are very persuasive.

Right.

It's a professor at an american university conducting the poll--I'll be nice and let you apply whatever error you'd like--doubt favorable will break 50%.

You're right they don't get the 'fair and balanced' version of the news but that won't change at least for another 6months.
 
70/30 said:
It's a professor at an american university conducting the poll--I'll be nice and let you apply whatever error you'd like--doubt it'll break 50%.

You're right they don't get the 'fair and balanced' version of the news but that won't change at least for another 6months.



I apologize, I should have said polls of people...


It doesn't matter who's asking the questions if the population is being spoonfed propaganda on Al Jazeera every day and doesn't have the right to free speech anyway (other than the officially sancioned "free" speech).
 
Here's the thing, though...

In a representative democracy it is not the job of the elected officials to do the absolute will of the people. A big part of that job is to do things that may be unpopular, but are what they believe to be in the best interest of the people.

It's kind of ironic that one of the big issues with Dubbaya is that he doesn't always do what the polls suggest he should do, yet one of the big issues with Clinton was that he ONLY did what the polls suggested he should do.
 
Who cares what others think..

When you have to do what's right?
The era of democracy by poll numbers is over, we'll do the right thing when needed, and the weak of character can argue among themselves.
 
Re: Re: What's so great about democracy?

p_p_man said:
True. If Israel retalliates against Iraq this time when the Scuds start falling, as they said they would, this would leave Bush and Blair being cast as the aggressors against all Muslims everywhere. The present Arab 'allies' on board at the moment would find it very difficult, if not impossible, to fight alongside Israel against Iraq.

The war could very quickly spread out of control...

Something Bush must have understood (or am I giving him too much credit here?)...

If he did understand but still goes ahead with the invasion then he truly qualifies for what I've always thought of him as being...

The most dangerous man on the planet...

ppman

According to Lance there has been no proof of SCUDS...therefore.....:D
 
Re: Who cares what others think..

Lost Cause said:

The era of democracy by poll numbers is over, we'll do the right thing when needed, and the weak of character can argue among themselves.

I understand your sentiment, LC. I truly do. But the historical ramifications of this have me very worried.

Whether or not we are ABLE to stand alone against world opinion isn't the question. It's whether we WANT to. Alone can be very lonely.

I think I think too much. It leaves me sad.
 
Lasher said:
Here's the thing, though...

In a representative democracy it is not the job of the elected officials to do the absolute will of the people.

I don't think arabs will like that kind of democracy to start off. Rove gave a speech about GWB's presidential legacy in DEC--a lot of Abe Lincoln and Andy Jackson. Some crap like, Abe had a favorable rating between 10-20% but he forced the war through. Andy Jackson had a vision...Madison was one of the nation's brightest minds but he was a failure as president, no vision.


****The ideology stays the same...sometimes they just shift their stance get that ideology through (going to the UN)
 
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This discussion is rendered moot by the fact that we don't have a democracy. Dubbya Bush (this century's Napoleon Bonaparte) was never elected by the American people.
 
Cuckolded_BlK_Male said:
This discussion is rendered moot by the fact that we don't have a democracy. Dubbya Bush (this century's Napoleon Bonaparte) was never elected by the American people.

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!

You taking debating lessons from Donkey Dork again?
 
Cuckolded_BlK_Male said:
This discussion is rendered moot by the fact that we don't have a democracy. Dubbya Bush (this century's Napoleon Bonaparte) was never elected by the American people.

The American people don't elect the President.

Read your Constitution then come on back and play.

Thanks.
 
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