What's in a name?

[bailadora]

As I was browsing across the news today, an interesting article caught my attention. It spoke of a dilemma some women may face when trying to decide whether or not to take on their partner's surname when they marry. Some decided it was easier to take on the spouse's name because it would keep things simpler when it came to kids and such. Others wanted to retain their maiden names because they felt it was a mark of independence. About the time I decided it was all a bunch of hot air about nothing, I read this paragraph:

Some of the judgment that accompanies a woman's decision to name-change is reflected in a recent survey at Tilburg Institute for Behavioral Economics Research in the Netherlands.

Researchers have suggested that women who change their name at marriage make nearly $400,000 less during their lifetimes than women who do not. They were judged by others as older, less educated and unmotivated compared to those who kept their own names -- even if they were the same age and background, according to a 2010 study in in the journal Basic and Applied Social Psychology.

Those who took a husband's name were viewed as "more caring, more dependent, less intelligent, more emotional, less competent, and less ambitious in comparison with a woman who kept her own name."

Women who kept their maiden names were seen as "less caring, more independent, more ambitious, more intelligent, and more competent."

Are you kidding me? How people could surmise that based upon a name change just boggles the mind. As always, I'm curious to see what my fellow Litsters think.

Ladies - did you or would you change your surname when/if you married? Why or why not?

Fellas - would you be bothered if your partner did not take on your name? Why or why not? If your partner wanted you to change your name (ie - accept his/her surname or hyphenate with his/hers), would you? Why or why not?

 

[DarkBee]

Funny, the thought crossed my mind just a short while ago (maybe yesterday). Personally, I wouldn't care if my future wife would take my surname or not, I think that's up to her to decide.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Fellas - would you be bothered if your partner did not take on your name? Why or why not? If your partner wanted you to change your name (ie - accept her surname or hyphenate with hers), would you? Why or why not?

Nope, don't care if she wants to take my name or not. No, I would not take her name, I like mine just fine. I'm more concerned with us being compatible "soul mate" material than what name we go by, besides, people usually refer to me as "that asshole"

 

[qrayze]

I took my ex's name when I married him, and when we divorced, it was and still is hell to try to get ppl to call me by my maiden name. It's been changed legally, but it's like nobody cares to ask me if I changed back or not, they just assume that because he and I had a child together that I would keep his last name.

If I'm ever insane enough to get married again, there's no way I'm taking the dude's last name. The success rate for 2nd marriages is even lower than 1st marriages and when we divorce, I don't want to have to deal with all this shit again.

I have a cousin who got married and didn't take the guy's last name, and yeah, my whole perception of her changed from that. I automatically saw her as more ambitious and more independant and knowing what she wants in life. Silly, huh.

 

[NomadLady]

I changed mine when I got married and left it the same after the divorce. The ex asked me once to change it a few years after the divorce (when he had remarried) and even offered to pay for the change. When I asked him "why" he said there are just too many "Mrs. X's (insert last name) running around".

I told him there is a cure for that....stop getting married so many times. He never asked me to change it again.

 

[culloden]

It bugged me when my then-fiance told me she wanted to keep her name.

I suppose there were several reasons. First, I distrust all change. There are good reasons for spouses having the same name, at least in terms of helping the larger community to understand relationships. My wife and I are small town people, and that stuff has import in such places. And second, well, if she loved me, she should take my name, damn it all.

Reason prevailed, and I've ended up happily married to someone with a different last name for a couple of decades. It's kind of funny now watching our kids' friends trying to figure out what to call her. Mrs. X? Mrs. Y? Ms. X? Ms. Y? Neither of us really care. (We do prefer kids not to use our first names - It's just a measure of respect. But now we've reached an age where kids who I led through Scouts are buying me beer. They still call me Mr. X, although I've told them first names are okay now...)

Now, if she'd asked me to take her name, I'd have said, "Hell no." Which was actually part of my thought process in not making a fuss about her keeping her name. It's always been my name, my identity. I'm not changing unless that witness protection thing comes through.

I think the compromise of hyphenated last names is simply impractical for more than one generation. And really, it's not a particularly successful solution from a feminist viewpoint, either.

Long story short, I'm not really sure why anyone else would make a judgment based on a person's last name. Smart people judge actions.

 

[Eilan]

I've been married twice, and each time I took my husband's last name. Neither of them cared one way or the other.

My maiden name (hate that term) is one that lends itself to crude jokes, so by changing my name, I could escape that. The main reason, however, is that I don't have a good enough relationship with my dad to feel the need to keep "his" name.

 

[fire_breeze]

As I was browsing across the news today, an interesting article caught my attention. It spoke of a dilemma some women may face when trying to decide whether or not to take on their partner's surname when they marry. Some decided it was easier to take on the spouse's name because it would keep things simpler when it came to kids and such. Others wanted to retain their maiden names because they felt it was a mark of independence. About the time I decided it was all a bunch of hot air about nothing, I read this paragraph:



Are you kidding me? How people could surmise that based upon a name change just boggles the mind. As always, I'm curious to see what my fellow Litsters think.

Ladies - did you or would you change your surname when/if you married? Why or why not?

Another thought-provoking thread! Bailadora, if you're not careful, you may find someone having a serious girl-crush on you .

I have a hyphenated family name, and I love it as I am able to pay homage to both my Mother and my Father, as does my brother. It associates us with them, yet keeps us distinct and unique. In fact, we insist that we are X-Y and not X or Y.

Professionally, if I had to get married, I'd want to keep my name. I'm starting to make a name for myself, and I'd like to keep it that way. Furthermore, I don't see myself getting married anytime soon, so by the time it may potentially be a concern, I'd have already (hopefully) established myself as a specialist in a very tiny field. To change my name would wreak havoc in my professional life.

Personally, on the other hand, it's a discussion that I'd have with my partner. If my partner is adamant about my changing my name, then that person has to explain why it's so important that I do, and "Because it's traditional" or "If you love me, you would"* just doesn't cut it. Personally, I do like the hyphenated option, or even adopting the spouse's family name as a second name (so, in my case, I'd probably be Breezy Z X-Y and my spouse could be Mate X-Y Z). I know some women back home would would add the prefix -né to their husbands' name and keep their own (Breezy X-Y Zné or Zné X-Y Breezy).

However. In the end, it should be up to the couple to decide. I don't like the fact that in many places, it's automatic that the woman changes her name, and she has to request to keep her name. That being said, I live in a province where women aren't given that option and have to keep her birth surname, making many women disgruntled. For me, that's what equality and feminism is about: being given the option to decide how I damn well want to call myself (within reason) without it being automatically assumed that I want to change or keep my family name after I hypothetically get married.



*to which I'd reply, If you love me, then you'd take my surname, but I digress

 

[bailadora]

Another thought-provoking thread! Bailadora, if you're not careful, you may find someone having a serious girl-crush on you .

Awww- thank you, Fire Breeze. You say the nicest things. I guess that's just the way my mind has been working lately.

Personally, on the other hand, it's a discussion that I'd have with my partner. If my partner is adamant about my changing my name, then that person has to explain why it's so important that I do, and "Because it's traditional" or "If you love me, you would"* just doesn't cut it. Personally, I do like the hyphenated option, or even adopting the spouse's family name as a second name (so, in my case, I'd probably be Breezy Z X-Y and my spouse could be Mate X-Y Z). I know some women back home would would add the prefix -né to their husbands' name and keep their own (Breezy X-Y Zné or Zné X-Y Breezy).

My SIL originally opted to keep her name (the independence thing) and while my BIL was fine with it, his family flipped out (especially his grandmother). Come to think of it, my inlaws were puzzled by her actions as well. She's now hyphenated, but I think she did so because she was tired of getting flak over her decision. OTOH, I have friend who also hyphenated upon getting married, but what's remarkable about it is that this particular friend is male. I thought it rather neat that he would assume her name in addition to his.

<snip> For me, that's what equality and feminism is about: being given the option to decide

*emphatic nod* I also think feminism should be about freedom of choice without judgment, but apparently that's anathema in some circles. In the article, one woman was quoted as saying: "I kept my name because I didn't want to be seen as throwing in the towel and becoming a housewife." Uh, excuse me? What, pray tell is so heretical to feminism about a woman's decision to stay home? Gah - we're our own worst enemy sometimes! But that's an entirely different discussion.

I opted to take my husband's name, but moved my maiden name to the space formerly occupied by my middle name. I felt this allowed me to symbolically demonstrate unity with my husband's family while still honoring and acknowledging my ties to my birth family. I took it a step further when my eldest daughter was born: her first name is my maiden name, so in a way, she's my hyphen. Of course, it helped that my husband liked my maiden name and thought it made for a beautiful first name.

 

[fuckmeat]

Had I married my late Mistress (entered into a civil partnership, which is basically the same thing under UK law) I would have taken her name. This would have been controversial in some ways, because I'm white and her name is one more associated with West Indians. But as the partnership would have courted controversy in the first place, I really wouldn't have cared.

As a sub, there's something romantic to me in taking a partner's name and becoming their spouse. Because I'm submissive and masochistic, if I married I would willingly become chattel and happily consider myself as such.

I have virtually no relationship with what remains of my family, so my own surname isn't something I have a particular attachment to or pride in. Even though many marriages end in divorce, to me the notion of keeping one's own name simply to avoid hassle in the event of a divorce just feels like dooming a marriage before it starts. I have the same philosophy about pre-nups but then I'm broke so it's not like I have anything to lose. Same goes for any notoriety I might have. I'd like to think that if I somehow made a name for myself I'd be up to the task of getting people to accept and use my married name. I'd be proud to be a spouse and I'd want the world to know and accept my change in status... but that's just me. I also understand other women's desire to keep their own name, especially if it's integrally linked to a business or professional field.

I have zero plans for kids at any time in my life but if I was going to marry a man and start a family, I would want myself and our kids to have his surname.

I'm friends with a lesbian couple who are married and have kept their own surnames but that's because they actually have the same first name, which causes no end of confusion! One of these special ladies is pregnant and the child's name will be hyphenated to incorporate both of their own. The child's middle name will reflect that of the biological father, a homosexual man. He and his husband will also be a big part of this child's life, so the kid will effectively have two sets of parents, though I believe the dad and his spouse will be introduced as 'uncles' until the kid is old enough to comprehend his or her genetic heritage. Plans for a sibling are already afoot and I believe they intend for uncle number two to donate semen for that one. One of the mothers has been sterilized, so the same woman will have both kids. However complicated this might all seem, I know that this child is going to be cherished, which is always a good start and legal agreements are in place to govern the child's future stability if either of his/her parents' marriages should fail or if anything should happen to his/her female primary carers.

From what I have seen working in a GLBT friendly pub and being part of that community, gay men generally prefer to keep their own surnames when they marry. Lesbian women seem to prefer sharing one surname, usually that of the more alpha and/or masculine personality in the relationship.

 

[cum2ut]

I always wanted to change mine, because I have the most boring last name. So I always hoped I'd marry someone with a much more interesting last name than mine. Although had my parents not had any boys, I might not have, just to keep the last name going. I have a couple friends that hypenated their last name for that reason.

 

[cromsgirl]

Interesting topic

When I was younger, I didn't want to change my name. It was part of my identity and getting married (if I ever did, I wasn't really interested in it) wouldn't change who I was. Years later my long term boyfriend and I decided to get married and I thought about taking his name. Then I was told that because I lived in the state capital I couldn't mail the paperwork in, I had to physically take it in to the office. Well, that particular building was in a VERY bad part of town and since I don't carry a gun, I decided not to change my name. My husband didn't care either way and since we aren't having children, that isn't a concern either. The only funny thing is that people at my work call him by my last name. We just find that amusing.

 

[bailadora]

I'm really enjoying the discussion and just wanted to thank everyone who has contributed thus far.

Although the article was written from a heteronormative perspective, I did try to phrase the questions so that people not involved het relationships could participate as well and I'm very glad that you felt comfortable doing so, Fuckmeat.

 

[bailadora]

Ooops- double post.

 

[OzoneRed]

I was going to say that the obvious answer is to marry your sibling, so the question of name changes never arises.

But now I wonder. In cases where the wife keeps her birth surname, what surname do the children take? Sons take the father's surname, daughters take the mother's? First child takes the mother's surname, second child takes the father's, etc?

 

[culloden]

I was going to say that the obvious answer is to marry your sibling, so the question of name changes never arises.

But now I wonder. In cases where the wife keeps her birth surname, what surname do the children take? Sons take the father's surname, daughters take the mother's? First child takes the mother's surname, second child takes the father's, etc?

In our family, the kids took my last name. But really, that's just tradition based. No reason it couldn't go the other way.

Thinking about it, I know two men who took their wife's last name, as did their kids.

I like the Scandinavian/Icelandic tradition where last names change every generation. John Gustafson's son's last name would be Johnson, and his daughter's last name would be Johnsdatter (sp?). And you know that John's father was named Gustaf. I'm pretty sure the tradition there though was also for the wife to take the husband's last name.

 

[fuckmeat]

Although the article was written from a heteronormative perspective, I did try to phrase the questions so that people not involved het relationships could participate as well and I'm very glad that you felt comfortable doing so, Fuckmeat.

That's just it, het is the norm and I believe that people of alternative orientations need to be equanimitous about that. I don't expect people to phrase everything in a super-PC gender/orientation neutral way. People just don't talk like that and it's unreasonable to expect posters to edit everything they write to be superlatively inclusive. The same goes for discussions about vanilla relationships. Often I can feel that because my relationships are power exchange based, my experiences/views have no relevance to non-kinky people. By offering my perspective anyway, I've found that there are often more similarities than there are differences. Power is incredibly important in relationships, whether your ideal is an even split or not.

Sometimes I worry that people might think I'm banging the alternative sexuality drum for the sake of it, just to make a point that not all relationships are heterosexual, vanilla and monogamous. That's really not the case though. The case is that my experiences and perspective are fundamentally different, as is my social circle.

So yeah, I'm comfortable with being a minority around here in orientation and kink terms. It's something I feel passionate about and I get little opportunity in RL to discuss that stuff with heterosexual, non-kinky people.

 

[bobsgirl]

I took my husband's name but I've been married since before the invention of the wheel, and back then it wasn't very common to keep your own name. It never seriously occurred to me to do that. I should have -- my husband's last name seems to be one people have trouble pronouncing. For years I've had the pleasure of strangers mispronouncing both my first and last names.

 

[Eilan]

When my ex and I moved several hours from our families, I used to get weekly letters from my grandma. She'd always address them to Mrs. [Ex's First Name] [Ex's last name]. I thought it was silly, but I knew that she was just doing what other women from her generation would have done.

Now that she's gone, I'd give anything to get a letter from her, no matter how it's addressed.

I took my husband's name but I've been married since before the invention of the wheel, and back then it wasn't very common to keep your own name. It never seriously occurred to me to do that. I should have -- my husband's last name seems to be one people have trouble pronouncing. For years I've had the pleasure of strangers mispronouncing both my first and last names.

My ex has one of those last names that's constantly getting mispronounced and misspelled. I've never understood why.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

Hispanic names and combined names

I like the Scandinavian/Icelandic tradition where last names change every generation. John Gustafson's son's last name would be Johnson, and his daughter's last name would be Johnsdatter (sp?). And you know that John's father was named Gustaf. I'm pretty sure the tradition there though was also for the wife to take the husband's last name.

I've always liked the Hispanic tradition of how a child has a given name(s), a father's last name, and a mother's last name. After marriage, this becomes either GN, FLN, husband's last name, or GN, FLN, MLN, HLN. There can be a "de" in between the MLN and the HLN.

[And hint: if you come across a Latino/a and are confused by the names, either use just the FLN or both the FLN and MLN, never just the MLN; for a married woman, use FLN and HLN, or FLN, MLN, HLN, depending on what the woman chose]

I admit; it's really confusing at first. But once you get the hang of it, full names can sound both beautiful and inclusive.

It can work well for same-sex couples, too (at least in the US, where there aren't too many name laws).

That said, I've always wondered how this works for a child if the mother either doesn't like the father of the child (rape, for instance) or doesn't know the father of the child.


I'm surprised that no one has brought up the trend of creating a new name (sorry if I missed it). I've known one couple that did this, but I never seriously considered it, and have always thought it rude to ask. I don't have much of an opinion on it. Has anyone else done this?

 

[culloden]

I've always liked the Hispanic tradition of how a child has a given name(s), a father's last name, and a mother's last name. After marriage, this becomes either GN, FLN, husband's last name, or GN, FLN, MLN, HLN. There can be a "de" in between the MLN and the HLN.

[And hint: if you come across a Latino/a and are confused by the names, either use just the FLN or both the FLN and MLN, never just the MLN; for a married woman, use FLN and HLN, or FLN, MLN, HLN, depending on what the woman chose]

I admit; it's really confusing at first. But once you get the hang of it, full names can sound both beautiful and inclusive.

It can work well for same-sex couples, too (at least in the US, where there aren't too many name laws).

That said, I've always wondered how this works for a child if the mother either doesn't like the father of the child (rape, for instance) or doesn't know the father of the child.


I'm surprised that no one has brought up the trend of creating a new name (sorry if I missed it). I've known one couple that did this, but I never seriously considered it, and have always thought it rude to ask. I don't have much of an opinion on it. Has anyone else done this?

Thanks for that explanation - I've often wondered how Hispanic names worked. It's interesting and culturally revealing in that it shows respect for both families.

 

[DrHappy]

Researchers have suggested that women who change their name at marriage make nearly $400,000 less during their lifetimes than women who do not. They were judged by others as older, less educated and unmotivated

The quote seems to suggest that a cause and effect relationship, in that changing your name will result in being paid less. I would think that it would more likely be the other way around: women who are highly paid in their careers are more likely to not change their name.

My wife chose to change her name to match mine. We thought that it simplifies things, and we thought that it would be nice to have something that will be common to all members of our family, including our kids.

 

[fire_breeze]

I was going to say that the obvious answer is to marry your sibling, so the question of name changes never arises.

But now I wonder. In cases where the wife keeps her birth surname, what surname do the children take? Sons take the father's surname, daughters take the mother's? First child takes the mother's surname, second child takes the father's, etc?

Many parents, my own included, give their children a hyphenated name (so I'm Breezy X-Y).

A family friend of mine kept her name when she married her husband. Their kids' family name are hers. He came from a large clan, and she doesn't. In his words, he said, "there are enough As running around."

As far as I know, in many many places, all kids born in a relationship must have the same family name.

 

[Chiara_searches]

As I was browsing across the news today, an interesting article caught my attention. It spoke of a dilemma some women may face when trying to decide whether or not to take on their partner's surname when they marry. Some decided it was easier to take on the spouse's name because it would keep things simpler when it came to kids and such. Others wanted to retain their maiden names because they felt it was a mark of independence. About the time I decided it was all a bunch of hot air about nothing, I read this paragraph:



Are you kidding me? How people could surmise that based upon a name change just boggles the mind. As always, I'm curious to see what my fellow Litsters think.

Ladies - did you or would you change your surname when/if you married? Why or why not?

Fellas - would you be bothered if your partner did not take on your name? Why or why not? If your partner wanted you to change your name (ie - accept his/her surname or hyphenate with his/hers), would you? Why or why not?

I kept my maiden name for professional stuff because I wanted to retain that independence. I took his name for personal stuff (buying the house, etc.) because I wanted to be that committed. I realize now the act of using his name didn't show my commitment. It was a pain to change everything back to my maiden name when we divorced, so if I ever marry again (doubtful) I'm keeping my maiden name.

 

[Guest]

Another thought-provoking thread! Bailadora, if you're not careful, you may find someone having a serious girl-crush on you .

I have a hyphenated family name, and I love it as I am able to pay homage to both my Mother and my Father, as does my brother. It associates us with them, yet keeps us distinct and unique. In fact, we insist that we are X-Y and not X or Y.

Professionally, if I had to get married, I'd want to keep my name. I'm starting to make a name for myself, and I'd like to keep it that way. Furthermore, I don't see myself getting married anytime soon, so by the time it may potentially be a concern, I'd have already (hopefully) established myself as a specialist in a very tiny field. To change my name would wreak havoc in my professional life.

Personally, on the other hand, it's a discussion that I'd have with my partner. If my partner is adamant about my changing my name, then that person has to explain why it's so important that I do, and "Because it's traditional" or "If you love me, you would"* just doesn't cut it. Personally, I do like the hyphenated option, or even adopting the spouse's family name as a second name (so, in my case, I'd probably be Breezy Z X-Y and my spouse could be Mate X-Y Z). I know some women back home would would add the prefix -né to their husbands' name and keep their own (Breezy X-Y Zné or Zné X-Y Breezy).

However. In the end, it should be up to the couple to decide. I don't like the fact that in many places, it's automatic that the woman changes her name, and she has to request to keep her name. That being said, I live in a province where women aren't given that option and have to keep her birth surname, making many women disgruntled. For me, that's what equality and feminism is about: being given the option to decide how I damn well want to call myself (within reason) without it being automatically assumed that I want to change or keep my family name after I hypothetically get married.



*to which I'd reply, If you love me, then you'd take my surname, but I digress

Hmm... it could work... fire breeze-bear...... or fire bear-breeze.