What is your idea of total submission?

[Aggressive One]

Just curious....

 

[catalina_francisco]

The short and simple answer for me is no limits except those imposed by the Dominant. I do not mean it in a no limits, except this, that, and a few other things, but definately no limits set by the sub/slave. Of course the sensible thing to do before that is find a Dominant who you know will not require you to do something you absolutely see as a previous limit not to be crossed, but even then you can find yourself asked at some later date to submit to the activity. It is not an easy thing to achieve, but is challenging and worth the effort to try for those wired that way.

Catalina

 

[Aggressive One]

Thank you for the input Cat... This is my first post to this part of the forum... have some ideas of my own just hesitant to explore them... for the moment.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you for the input Cat... This is my first post to this part of the forum... have some ideas of my own just hesitant to explore them... for the moment.

Welcome to our corner of the Literotica Universe...hope you enjoy posting here and feel free to explore those ideas here....most of us have been there and are still exploring our own journeys. There is a wealth of information to be shared here.

Catalina

 

[badlilthang]

Of course the sensible thing to do before that is find a Dominant who you know will not require you to do something you absolutely see as a previous limit not to be crossed, but even then you can find yourself asked at some later date to submit to the activity. It is not an easy thing to achieve, but is challenging and worth the effort to try for those wired that way.

Catalina

i agree of some of the things catalina said...but i also see it a little differently. Total submission ~ is not something you start with in your D/s - SM - BDSM journey...i think it is built in little by little - and if the Ttwo find the total trust and respect within Eeach other...it is often the journey changes. Sometimes from submission to total submission - or even deeper than that....slave.

But catalina said it to find a Dom that you know will not require this from you - if you had an absolute limit...was the sensible thing to do - but also then could find yourself asked at some later date to submit to that activity. Here i disagree. A hard limit should be respected. It was a deal when the relationship started, the rules are set - and those particular rules should be as they are.

i mean...i have an absolute limit - for instance - when it comes to beastiality (animals). if my One demanded that of me, the relationship would simply be over. No matter how strong my love for Him would be...i could not, would not - handle that...even the thought makes me sick....so for me - total submission is under the rules already set. To push where it can be pushed...and respect for the hard limits....~s~

And, Aggressive One..welcome...s...

http://www.siz.snug1.org/abd/kao/heartsskip.gif

 

[soapstar]

I'm with the little by little quote for sure.

Trust is a funny thing. You can be as cagey as necessary, but sometimes you meet the right person too. Thankfully, I have an amazing bullshit detctor.

And I've been amazingly lucky.

 

[RJMasters]

I'll bite

Taking a slightly different point of view on this...

Not looking at it from an over all relationship standpoint, but more from a specific moment to moment basis. Which speaks more to the moment of an act of submission, rather than to the depth of the submission takes.

For example, during a scene, my idea of total submission is when the submissive drops into sub space. For me this is when a point of total surrendure which takes place at that single moment.

You could also say that a relationship is built on specific moments of total submission. A task is given, and a the ply, "with a glad heart" obeys and does the task. At that moment, that is an act of total submission. String enough of these together and you have the give and take over time between two people which builds love and trust.

I agree with the things Catalina and badlilthang said, however I see their comments are more directed to the depth or level of submission. I think there is never a point you can reach where you can fall back out of total submission. There is never a point IMHO where the choice to submit becomes a given.

It is important that from moment to moment a submissive gives of themself willingly from their heart, their mind and their body, and in that way, live in total submission moment by moment, day by day.

I think the depth of the human heart, mind and spirit is infinite, hence the depth in which a person can submit is infinite, so when you speak of total submission, I do not see it as something that can be measured in depth, but more about a specific moment of obedience in which total submission has been reached.

As a parting coment, as Catalina and badlilthang have pointed out, the depth of a person's submission is laregely based on the level of trust. This means that this can always vary up or down depending on if trust is deepened or broken. Hence there is never a point which can be reached of total submission based on the depth, as this requires continued diligence to keep and maintian the trust between the two people.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

to me total submission is doing anything for your Dom, but i also believe it should be within limits you've previously discussed. there isnt much i wouldnt do for my Owner-but there are some things, and he knows that. he wouldnt WANT me to compromise my morals to serve/please him, and thats one thing i love about him. if i compromised my morals, for anything, i think that devalues me in his eyes, and i totally understand that. for example if i say i love animals (which i do), if he told me to go kick a dog, i wouldnt do it. does that make me not a real or total submissive? no. i mean what kind of dom would want his sub to ignore their own morals? it comes back to something i've said before-theres nothing attractive about having a mindless robot for a submissive, and i've never understood why a Domme would want that. i wouldnt want a sub who told me they utterly hated racism, but if i said "go call that person nigger" theyd go do it. why would i want someone like that? mindless submission is for immature ppl who want to live out some kind of fantasy, and think that to have total submission you need to do ANYthing your dom says even if it goes against your morals/limits. i think any mature dominant would want a submissive with a mind. after all-its not much of a feat to get a robot to submit to you. its quite something else to get a living human being with hopes and dreams and morals, to kneel at your feet and offer him/herself to you, and say "im yours, i will do whatever you want, within my morals and limits we've discussed".

i actually think that kind of submission is more valueable and beautiful than the "mindless robot" kind, but thats just my opinion.

 

[Shadowsdream]

In My opinion total submission is dependent upon total Domination. Domination is not dependent upon abuse or pushing limits that are unacceptable in the most basic *emotional and physical* survival arena. Such as interraction with children and animals. Enough said.

Total submission to Me and in My own world is a no questions asked obedience and endurance. A joyful and committed desire to perform and serve to the best of the ability any task that brings pleasure to the Dominant.

Over simplified perhaps.

 

[catalina_francisco]

i agree of some of the things catalina said...but i also see it a little differently. Total submission ~ is not something you start with in your D/s - SM - BDSM journey...i think it is built in little by little - and if the Ttwo find the total trust and respect within Eeach other...it is often the journey changes. Sometimes from submission to total submission - or even deeper than that....slave.

But catalina said it to find a Dom that you know will not require this from you - if you had an absolute limit...was the sensible thing to do - but also then could find yourself asked at some later date to submit to that activity. Here i disagree. A hard limit should be respected. It was a deal when the relationship started, the rules are set - and those particular rules should be as they are.

i mean...i have an absolute limit - for instance - when it comes to beastiality (animals). if my One demanded that of me, the relationship would simply be over. No matter how strong my love for Him would be...i could not, would not - handle that...even the thought makes me sick....so for me - total submission is under the rules already set. To push where it can be pushed...and respect for the hard limits....~s~

And, Aggressive One..welcome...s...

http://www.siz.snug1.org/abd/kao/heartsskip.gif

Guess being late at night I didn't clarify enough. It seems to me only sensible to think it comes over time as all submission does. It is built on and developed over time and through trust and respect. From my POV, total submission is that place you reach as slave (TPE) where you do submit to the best of your ability to whatever is asked, hence why I said it is wise to make sure before you get involved that the person shares similar values and needs as your own.

That being said, I don't know anyone who has been in a long term r/l relationship who can say limits have not changed. It is not a matter of being forced but a progression that takes you places you didn't think were possible...often things you both had limits with initially but over time develop a desire to push. Those are usually soft limits, though some hard ones also come into play for many...but very hard limits such as you have strong feelings over are why I say you need to know the one you get involved with very well before going to that final level of submission.

Ultimately though, for anything to be total usually means there is nothing left over, thus why I associate it as TPE where the submissive has no limits of their own. I understand it is not for everyone, and though it is how I live I am not successful 100% of the time, but the desire to try to be is there and ever present as a goal to reach. I do take seriously the fact I voluntarily offered my submission in total so no longer have a right to a limit set by me...if asked to do something I find I can't I can express my feelings, I can fail though not purposefully, but I must always try to do as ordered and if unsuccessful, keep trying until I either achieve it or he revokes or revises the order. It is not an area I advise anyone to go into quickly, without thought, or half heartedly as it does challenge places within you which you might find you would have preferred not to have challenged or demanded. It certainly does not mean hearts and flowers 24/7.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: I'll bite

As a parting coment, as Catalina and badlilthang have pointed out, the depth of a person's submission is laregely based on the level of trust. This means that this can always vary up or down depending on if trust is deepened or broken. Hence there is never a point which can be reached of total submission based on the depth, as this requires continued diligence to keep and maintian the trust between the two people.

This is very true and also a fragile thing to keep in balance. For myself in a TPE it is not acceptable for me to challenge and change my mind about my total submission though, no matter how painful or difficult it may be at times. It is doubly so as I was not asked to offer it, and was cautioned when I did to make sure I understood what I was giving...for us it is a serious commitment which cannot be given and taken away at will...the best I can hope for is if I find something he orders particularly damaging in any way he will listen and understand and either give me time and support to work up to it, or decide the risk to me and us is too great to push it.

That is where the challenges rest for both of us....defining how much is too much, how to judge it is worth the risks, and living a reality which is based upon one person's needs exclusively if that is what he chooses.....fortunately at this point he often considers how I am coping and may give me a reprieve if he thinks he has gone beyond what is safe for me.....he isn't keen on the idea of losing his toy and being left without a functioning slave to cater to his whims.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

In My opinion total submission is dependent upon total Domination. Domination is not dependent upon abuse or pushing limits that are unacceptable in the most basic *emotional and physical* survival arena. Such as interraction with children and animals. Enough said.

Total submission to Me and in My own world is a no questions asked obedience and endurance. A joyful and committed desire to perform and serve to the best of the ability any task that brings pleasure to the Dominant.

Over simplified perhaps.

Sounds good to me and realistic.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

to me total submission is doing anything for your Dom, but i also believe it should be within limits you've previously discussed. there isnt much i wouldnt do for my Owner-but there are some things, and he knows that. he wouldnt WANT me to compromise my morals to serve/please him, and thats one thing i love about him. if i compromised my morals, for anything, i think that devalues me in his eyes, and i totally understand that. for example if i say i love animals (which i do), if he told me to go kick a dog, i wouldnt do it. does that make me not a real or total submissive? no. i mean what kind of dom would want his sub to ignore their own morals? it comes back to something i've said before-theres nothing attractive about having a mindless robot for a submissive, and i've never understood why a Domme would want that. i wouldnt want a sub who told me they utterly hated racism, but if i said "go call that person nigger" theyd go do it. why would i want someone like that? mindless submission is for immature ppl who want to live out some kind of fantasy, and think that to have total submission you need to do ANYthing your dom says even if it goes against your morals/limits. i think any mature dominant would want a submissive with a mind. after all-its not much of a feat to get a robot to submit to you. its quite something else to get a living human being with hopes and dreams and morals, to kneel at your feet and offer him/herself to you, and say "im yours, i will do whatever you want, within my morals and limits we've discussed".

i actually think that kind of submission is more valueable and beautiful than the "mindless robot" kind, but thats just my opinion.

I actually think you need a strong mind to submit totally in the way you see as mindless. It is anything but mindless if you serve to obey in whatever way you are asked, despite your own difficulties, and most times success is not a given nor easy to achieve. Once again it comes down to knowing the morals and values of your Dominant BEFORE even committing to that level...thus you know they are not going to contradict those areas which you both feel are important moralistic values to live by, though they might at times play with them for their amusement..for instance you may be ordered to do something they know goes against everything you believe and the test is not in you actually doing it, but their seeing you are willing to commit to trying to carry it out...once they see that the submission is there, the order is often revoked.

I find no challenge or feeling of submission if I lay out a set of limits and rules, and he then abides by them without question at any point of the journey....for me it has to be a joint decision in the beginning, and as time passes if total submission is wanted by both it is then a place you arrive at where you accept the possibility of being asked to submit to some or all of those things previously set as limits if the Dominant desires. If you both share the same morals and values, they are usually not going to ask things of you they themselves would see as irrevocably devaluing and reason to not associate with you anymore...doesn't make sense (though if something changes for them they might which is why it takes a lot of consideration before making that commitment)...but they may demand you begin preparing to try and overcome your fear or dislike of needleplay or heavy pain or sharing etc.

I don't see morals and limits as being one in the same thing.....morals may govern some limits, but are not the same, thus if you share a similar set of morals and values you know you are not going to be asked to challenge those parts of you which usually form part of the foundation of the relationship and attraction. Personally, if a Dominant asked anyone to kick a dog or such just to prove they had power, I would seriously question whether they felt secure in their dominance or own self image. I can relate to acts which may be demanded to bring about humilation, or to serve a Dominant's needs, but to order something which is purely meant to hurt someone or something else for no purpose is not mature or dominance IMO. But that is my reality and does not necessarily work for others.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

To me it's the little things.

I'd never ask M to hurt an animal or even do something I know wouldn't be productive to him at this time in his life, or productive for me.

When M changes the cat litter simply because he doesn't think I should have to, that matters. When we watch the same freaking DVD he's tired of seeing because I get shits and giggles out of it, that counts.

I'm more into the "useful" scene than I am into the "would you bungee jump off a cliff for me?" scene.

So for me it's pretty basic and pretty boring.

 

[catalina_francisco]

To me it's the little things.

I'd never ask M to hurt an animal or even do something I know wouldn't be productive to him at this time in his life, or productive for me.

When M changes the cat litter simply because he doesn't think I should have to, that matters. When we watch the same freaking DVD he's tired of seeing because I get shits and giggles out of it, that counts.

I'm more into the "useful" scene than I am into the "would you bungee jump off a cliff for me?" scene.

So for me it's pretty basic and pretty boring.

Practical and for your pleasure is never boring, but to me does show submission as opposed to someone doing only that which they like and want to do purely for their own pleasure and desire.

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

total submission is just that...total. saying, "im yours, i will do whatever you want, within my morals and limits we've discussed"...is far from total submission. total submission is a complete giving up of limits of your own, of rights of your own, of choices of your own. and i agree with Catalina in that one must be far from mindless and robotic to reach that depth of submission.

i also disagree with those who have said that submission is a constant choice, and never a given. submission can very much be a given, when one is a natural submissive. and the fact that for those submissives it is not a constant moment by moment willing choice but a drive, an instinct, makes the submission no less beautiful or real.

 

[RJMasters]

i also disagree with those who have said that submission is a constant choice, and never a given. submission can very much be a given, when one is a natural submissive. and the fact that for those submissives it is not a constant moment by moment willing choice but a drive, an instinct, makes the submission no less beautiful or real.

Then we disagree. To what extent we disagree, I am not sure.

I am more than willing to admit that where "trust" has been establish, it can provide the "environment" for the natural submissive to thrive, however, to make such a blanket statement of:

submission can very much be a given, when one is a natural submissive. and the fact that for those submissives it is not a constant moment by moment willing choice but a drive, an instinct, makes the submission no less beautiful or real.

Think of the implications of this statement.

Though we disagree, I hope we can discuss this with open minds trying to understand what each other has to say.

 

[SierraMoon]

In My opinion total submission is dependent upon total Domination. Domination is not dependent upon abuse or pushing limits that are unacceptable in the most basic *emotional and physical* survival arena. Such as interraction with children and animals. Enough said.

Total submission to Me and in My own world is a no questions asked obedience and endurance. A joyful and committed desire to perform and serve to the best of the ability any task that brings pleasure to the Dominant.

Over simplified perhaps.

Not over simplified, You just have a way with words Shadows

This is exactly as it is with my Master and i, or i should say what we are striving for.

Yes, i have given up all my rights as a submissive in order to become His slave, but i know in my heart that He would never ask something of me that He knows would cause me any harm or belittle me or my morals in anyway.

That is where trust comes in. my total submission to Him was easy to give away, because our trust is so strong.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Then we disagree. To what extent we disagree, I am not sure.

I am more than willing to admit that where "trust" has been establish, it can provide the "environment" for the natural submissive to thrive, however, to make such a blanket statement of:

submission can very much be a given, when one is a natural submissive. and the fact that for those submissives it is not a constant moment by moment willing choice but a drive, an instinct, makes the submission no less beautiful or real.

Think of the implications of this statement.

Though we disagree, I hope we can discuss this with open minds trying to understand what each other has to say.

well of course we can RJMasters. now, i believe there are basically two different kinds/types of submissives (submissives, not bottoms). there are submissives who submit because they wish to submit, at a particular time, or to a particular person. who always consciously make the choice to submit, because it feels right to them, makes them feel good, etc. i would find that most submissives in the D/s lifestyle fall under that category. and then there is the other type of submissive, what i would call a "born" submissive or "natural" submissive, who submits not so much because it makes them so happy to do so, but because submitting is always their first instinct. something deep down at the core of them drives them to submit, and they have to FIGHT this drive in order NOT to submit, in situations where it is something they truly do not wish to do or when they know it would be unhealthy. these submissives are people-pleasers, but more than that...they have a very real need to serve others, even to their own detriment.

i believe i am a natural submissive, just because for as long as i can remember, even as a small child, i recall constantly doing whatever it took to make others happy, even when it hurt me. i recall all those times where i wished so badly not to do as someone wanted, but found myself unable to say no or stop them in any way. i just submit....often before i even realize that i am doing so. now that i am a slave, i am carefully controlled. He controls who i submit to, how and when, because he controls me physically...i can't go anywhere without his say-so. He keeps me fairly well isolated so that i cannot associate with anyone he doesn't approve of. but as for my submission to him, that has come naturally from the very start. not because there was a wonderful, almost magical connection between us (altho there definitely was), but because submitting has always come naturally for me. the challenge for my Master has been in molding me to his particular ways and desires, not in developing my submission. the depth of my submission to him has nothing whatever to do with trust. it is just who i am. it may be hard for some to understand or believe, but it is reality nonetheless.

however i do feel that both kinds of submissives can reach that level of total submission, we just reach that depth in different ways.

 

[RJMasters]

well of course we can RJMasters. now, i believe there are basically two different kinds/types of submissives (submissives, not bottoms). there are submissives who submit because they wish to submit, at a particular time, or to a particular person. who always consciously make the choice to submit, because it feels right to them, makes them feel good, etc. i would find that most submissives in the D/s lifestyle fall under that category. and then there is the other type of submissive, what i would call a "born" submissive or "natural" submissive, who submits not so much because it makes them so happy to do so, but because submitting is always their first instinct. something deep down at the core of them drives them to submit, and they have to FIGHT this drive in order NOT to submit, in situations where it is something they truly do not wish to do or when they know it would be unhealthy. these submissives are people-pleasers, but more than that...they have a very real need to serve others, even to their own detriment.

i believe i am a natural submissive, just because for as long as i can remember, even as a small child, i recall constantly doing whatever it took to make others happy, even when it hurt me. i recall all those times where i wished so badly not to do as someone wanted, but found myself unable to say no or stop them in any way. i just submit....often before i even realize that i am doing so. now that i am a slave, i am carefully controlled. He controls who i submit to, how and when, because he controls me physically...i can't go anywhere without his say-so. He keeps me fairly well isolated so that i cannot associate with anyone he doesn't approve of. but as for my submission to him, that has come naturally from the very start. not because there was a wonderful, almost magical connection between us (altho there definitely was), but because submitting has always come naturally for me. the challenge for my Master has been in molding me to his particular ways and desires, not in developing my submission. the depth of my submission to him has nothing whatever to do with trust. it is just who i am. it may be hard for some to understand or believe, but it is reality nonetheless.

however i do feel that both kinds of submissives can reach that level of total submission, we just reach that depth in different ways.

Hmmm...Ok I will agree that there are different reasons why a person can be a submissive. Some are submissive, because they need to feel dominated by another, where as some may be people pleasers. However, I don't buy that a people pleaser type submissive gets a special class all of their own dubbed as a "natural submissive". I say this because a person who has the need to be dominated are born a "natural submissive" as well.

The fact that you have a basic instinctive need to "please" another, in no way makes you more of a natural submissive than someone who has thebasic instintive need to be dominated.

I can understand how your nature to please someone makes submission very easy thing to do, to the point it almost seems like no decision is invloved, but that's where we disagree.

Because, you submit to please someone. You make an active choice in your mind/heart to put others needs ahead of yours. Even if this is on an instinctive level, there is still an active choice. You choose to please, rather than run the risk of causing another disappointment or face rejection. The choice may be more suttle, and may even feel like it is just something you naturally do, however there is a choice being made to please the other person, and that takes on the "expression of your submission".

Other wise you write this blank check and sign it "natural submissive". Which translates into mindless robot. Or you totally go the opposite way and remove any need for a dominant to even be dominant with you, because your a "natural submissive" and your drives and instincts dominate you to the point you are in a constant state of submission to anyone or anything at any given time.

I don't buy the "natural submissive" argument as being something completely different than those who are born with other reasons just as real, and just as special, to be submissive. They may have to make a choice of obedience through the surrendure of their will, but you still have to make that same choice to please another. Thier instinctiveness and drive to submit is exactly the same as yours, it only has a different point of focus.

When a Dominant breaches hards limits without any care in their heart for you, and the relationship turns abusivess excessively, then the environment of trust which allows free expression of submission is removed. You may be at more risk because of the need to submit in order to please, but I think all submissive to some degree have to face this issue if it arises.

Being a people pleaser submissive in my way of thinking does not remove the choice of submission from moment to moment, it really is a shifting of a choice to please which then equates to natural submission. Either way you still make the choice to please or to obey and it all falls under the same umbrella equally special as "naturally submissive".

Some might even argue that given what you have said, you are not a true submissive at all, because your submission is derived from being a people pleaser. I do not hold to this kind of view at all.

I think Dominants and submissives alike come in different shapes and sizes and each have their own reasons and needs for being who they are. When a person says they are a submissive, I don't care as much as why they are a submissive, as much as I try to appreciate them and the way the express their own individual submissiveness(or self).

I guess thats how I see it.

 

[Desdemona]

In my opinion, total submission is defined within the D/s relationship. There are varying opinions about what constitutes total submission and it certainly makes for interesting conversation. However, these opinions are basically irrelevant as long as the Dom and sub are satisfied with the degree of Domination/submission within their relationship.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Hmmm...Ok I will agree that there are different reasons why a person can be a submissive. Some are submissive, because they need to feel dominated by another, where as some may be people pleasers. However, I don't buy that a people pleaser type submissive gets a special class all of their own dubbed as a "natural submissive". I say this because a person who has the need to be dominated are born a "natural submissive" as well.

The fact that you have a basic instinctive need to "please" another, in no way makes you more of a natural submissive than someone who has thebasic instintive need to be dominated.

I can understand how your nature to please someone makes submission very easy thing to do, to the point it almost seems like no decision is invloved, but that's where we disagree.

Because, you submit to please someone. You make an active choice in your mind/heart to put others needs ahead of yours. Even if this is on an instinctive level, there is still an active choice. You choose to please, rather than run the risk of causing another disappointment or face rejection. The choice may be more suttle, and may even feel like it is just something you naturally do, however there is a choice being made to please the other person, and that takes on the "expression of your submission".

Other wise you write this blank check and sign it "natural submissive". Which translates into mindless robot. Or you totally go the opposite way and remove any need for a dominant to even be dominant with you, because your a "natural submissive" and your drives and instincts dominate you to the point you are in a constant state of submission to anyone or anything at any given time.

I don't buy the "natural submissive" argument as being something completely different than those who are born with other reasons just as real, and just as special, to be submissive. They may have to make a choice of obedience through the surrendure of their will, but you still have to make that same choice to please another. Thier instinctiveness and drive to submit is exactly the same as yours, it only has a different point of focus.

When a Dominant breaches hards limits without any care in their heart for you, and the relationship turns abusivess excessively, then the environment of trust which allows free expression of submission is removed. You may be at more risk because of the need to submit in order to please, but I think all submissive to some degree have to face this issue if it arises.

Being a people pleaser submissive in my way of thinking does not remove the choice of submission from moment to moment, it really is a shifting of a choice to please which then equates to natural submission. Either way you still make the choice to please or to obey and it all falls under the same umbrella equally special as "naturally submissive".

Some might even argue that given what you have said, you are not a true submissive at all, because your submission is derived from being a people pleaser. I do not hold to this kind of view at all.

I think Dominants and submissives alike come in different shapes and sizes and each have their own reasons and needs for being who they are. When a person says they are a submissive, I don't care as much as why they are a submissive, as much as I try to appreciate them and the way the express their own individual submissiveness(or self).

I guess thats how I see it.

RJMasters, i did not mean to give the impression that one is a submissive simply because they are a people-pleaser. rather that a certain kind of submissive, a "natural" submissive, imo, is also a people pleaser. but that alone does not define their submission. it's something i've pondered often in my quest to know and understand my true self, and i believe that some of us are born to submit as a sort of survival instinct. i notice that my Master, when in a physically threatening situation, reacts by fighting. without a gun, no one is going to steal his wallet and be in any condition to go anywhere with it. that is his instinct, something he doesn't even think about. whereas put me in the same situation, and i give in. i hand over the wallet. or i go limp and silently allow someone to have their way with my body. these are not things i wish to do, i wish often i had the fighter instinct such as my Master and others have. i wished many times that i could just tell someone NO...or STOP of leave me alone. would struggle mightily to utter these words, or to not do something they wished. but it was never something i was able to control. that i why i disagree with you that submission is always a choice. if it were a choice, wouldn't i be able to control how and when it was expressed?

you made a comment about being in a constant state of submission to anyone or anything at any given time...well that could have very well described my life before i became my Master's property. i was constantly being taken advantage of by others, and often abused. it was a miserable existence, to put it very mildly. before i knew i was a submissive and before i discovered D/s, i would wonder, who on earth would ever want someone like me? someone who couldn't stop people from walking all over them, who couldn't say no, who couldn't even keep themselves safe? no man could possibly desire such a woman (i thought). and upon discovering D/s i was quickly labelled as a "doormat", as a mindless robot type of submissive being talked about here. so it was a long difficult road for me to self acceptance and contentment.

it was my Master who showed me that my unique kind of submissiveness was special...He had always longed to have a natural submissive. He taught me that being born the way i was was a gift, not a curse. and though i do not believe that any type of submissive is "better" than any other, i feel fortunate to have found someone who appreciates me as i am.

now as for the issue of trust...i think one can submit and submit wholly without trust. total trust may make the act of submitting more pleasant for the submissive, but i don't think it's required in order to submit.

 

[shy slave]

have tried to post on this thread but 'puter keeps crashing.

I have enjoyed reading each response and it makes my mind dizzy with thoughts and questions

Amazing how a one line question can spark so much conversation.


Keep going back to Catalina's first response "No limits" & OSG has similiar response.

I agree with both of you that this level of submission does not make you a 'Stepford Wife;' but for some people the potential to make them a 'mindless robot' is there. Sub/slaves on Lit appear articulate and mindful and entered into this lifestyle freely. Not every sub has the opportunity to discuss the lifestyle with others. Not every sub recognises when total submission means more than a constant stream of 'Yes Sir.'

Sigsauerprinces talks of limits/morals and how they would impact on total submission.

It equally interests me how both Shaowsdream and Netzach have smple yet succinct statements on the Domme view of total submission, it makes me wonder if, as subs, we think or analyse too much.

On another thread Franciso talked of the small percentage of people interested in this lifestyle.

Add into that mix peoples differing kinks/interests, geographical distance, individual morals and attitudes ,which are either genetic or environmental based, and its a wonder we can even contemplate total submission to anyone.

Trust seems to be a part of every post if reading between the lines, giving total submission to someone we do not fully trust could be a one-way ticket to the graveyard ...or the best thing that has ever happened but it is a risk either way.

If Catalina were not of the same like mind as Francisco would she really be able to give total submission? (sorry to use yo as an example, hope its ok) If she did not walk away she could claim total submission up to a point but eventually would need to bring in the boundries/morals etc to reassure her ownself, part of inner survival.

Perhaps total submission has levels:

Unmoving Boundries -----------------> Agreements/Contracts -----------------> Softer Moveable Boundries --------------> No Safe Word/Limitless

Presuming that we do meet someone we trust enough to want to give total submission, it must mean differing things to differing people. SSP gives an interesting example of being asked to go against personal moral code as part of submission, yet the Dommes who have posted have not suggested this; perhaps this is because they do not have a need to prove control and have moved into excepting and recieving submission on their terms.

In my eyes I do not give total submission, He has no control over my work or family. We live apart and therefore He does not exert minute control due to the practicalities of ensuring I obeyed.

If total submission is on differing levels I am somewhere between agreements & moveable boundries.
I have no wish to be a robot nor breach my own personal & moral codes; but I do have a desire to please.
A dilemma that I will continue to work through.
He has not yet asked anything that would go against my personal moral code and I believe this is in part because He understands that certains items have certain roles.
For example: He would not take a car off road if it did not have 4 wheel drive, nor would He expect His kite to to keep Him afloat. These items have other uses, He does not need ask unreasonable tasks of them to prove He controls and owns them.

I need to re-read some posts to clarify in my mind what people are saying, if I have misunderstood anything please let me know x

 

[catalina_francisco]

If Catalina were not of the same like mind as Francisco would she really be able to give total submission? (sorry to use yo as an example, hope its ok) If she did not walk away she could claim total submission up to a point but eventually would need to bring in the boundries/morals etc to reassure her ownself, part of inner survival.

LOL, we don't mind.....Though we are like minded in many things, when it comes to my submission, there are areas we differ in, and they are not simple or easy ones but ones which require me to go against parts of me deeply ingrained and backed by morals and values. Those times are not easy and it has changed me, but it was what I committed to and I am true to my word (and he did caution me when I chose this), though at times it requires some patience from him to get me to the point he wants...it is a continuing journey which often is one step forward, two steps back, then starting the process over again...it is getting better though. I'm not sure about the levels idea as it implies some may be better or worse than others which I don't see..it is a matter of choice and what suits each person as an individual.

I was thinking more about it last night and an analogy I came up with was if you are in credit card debt and haven't been paying, you may get a letter threatening legal action if you do not pay the total amount owing by a certain date. While you may still have the option to negiotiate to pay it by a different date, commiting to set instalments etc., they are not going to accept total payment as being if you pay half or pay the amount the goods cost initially, but not the interest.

Total to me in any circumstance is total as in full amount, not partial with excuses for why the rest will not be forthcoming. It doesn't mean someone who has limits is not submissive or as good, it is a choice they make, the same as I have made the choice I needed to live. Though it takes a lot of pain and anguish at times, I do commit to do what he orders and have his support to help me achieve those things which are less than palatable to me. It is not about what I like or want, but what he requires of me...and it is not something which happens overnight despite the will to be perfect for him. The total submission for us is that commitment to do as he orders, asking his support and help to achieve when it is particularly difficult, and working toward ahieving that goal together.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

The credit card ananlogy makes sense to me, thanks catalina