What is monogamy?

[JMohegan]

Sorry, I missed this response from you earlier.

Yes, about me being the only one getting my needs met. You're right, and it's completely unfair, but, you're right, something is sure to give. We won't let it be our marriage. I am fiercely sure of that. I keep hoping someone will tell me it isn't hopeless, but I'm not sure that's going to happen. My strategy so far has been to just enjoy the time that I have with my online Dom for as long as we have each other. These things never end well.

Yes, you're right again about the difference between 'fucking around' and letting someone control me. But...here's the thing, my other Dom is online-only. We may very well never get to meet in real life. We can't even talk on the phone. We have PMs and only PMs. And he doesn't control me in real-life, meaning he doesn't set tasks for me or order me to do or not to do things...I only take orders from him during on-line sex, and that restriction is at my husband's behest. So the letting-him-control-me is on a pretty tight leash as it is. It's the love thing that gets my husband. He just doesn't want my online Dom to be as emotionally important to me as he is.



So, in other words, you're saying they might be so much alike in terms of their relationships to me that it's threatening for my husband? Like a fear of being replaced? Or being outdone? If so...hmmm...I could see that. I relate to them each very similarly on a sexual level. I mean, my kinks are what they are and I'm very compatible with each of them, though the sexual relationships are not exactly the same.

Romantically, they each fulfill separate needs. I am happy in my marriage and have zero desire to end it, but my husband and I are VERY different people emotionally and this difference causes frequent challenges to our communication. I've been aware of this since the beginning and it's a challenge I'm willing to live with until I die, despite how maddening it can be sometimes. We have many strengths, but this is by far our biggest weakness as a couple. My online Dom "gets" me on such a deep, intimate level and it's so nice to feel so well and easily understood...it's a major root of our bond to one another. My marriage with my husband, in all areas except this one, has actually been better since I met my online Dom because the online guy fulfills that need to be understood in ways that my husband is unable to understand me, leaving me with more patience and understanding and a better ability to communicate with my husband.

That's the tragic part for me. If there was some way to magically erase awareness of my online Dom from my husband's awareness, we would probably be happier as a couple right now than we've ever been EVER.

But, as you say, there's that D-type control thing that can be such a bitch. I have such love/hate feelings about that particular D-characteristic.

And so I've talked myself back in a circle to what I said above: I'd better just enjoy it while it lasts because it seems unlikely that I'll get to love them both forever, however heart-breaking that my be for me.

Sometimes I wish he'd get on Lit and talk with y'all about it. I feel like he could really benefit from some outside support on this, regardless of whether it helps him tolerate my external relationship more or less. Just for his own mental health, I'd love for him to have a third-party to talk to, but so far I can't convince him to give you all a chance.

At the risk of pissing off online-only people everywhere (including you), I'm gonna be candid here.

I believe that your feelings and attachment for your online Dom are real, but that the online Dom himself is really not. That is to say - of course there is an actual human being on the other side of the screen, but if you have never met him and interacted with him on a day-to-day basis, then the person you perceive him to be is largely fantasy based. There are a million blanks that you can fill in, according to your liking. He can "get" you completely, partly because you may be well matched but also because you gloss over any hints to the contrary and substitute something positive in any areas of uncertainty. He can be the most understanding person on the planet, because online it costs him nothing.

On the one hand, as you say, it would be foolish for your husband to feel threatened by a fantasy figure. On the other hand, it is impossible for any human, living 24/7 with the ups and downs and challenges of partnership in an actual, three-dimensional existence, to compete with a fantasy construction. And you just told me, explicitly, that you compare the two and find your husband lacking.

 

[ataxia.girl]

What i take exception to is the majority of people who go around with their heads in the sand striving for some lifetime monogamous ideal that really only exists for a very small fraction of the population. Why set yourself up to fail like that?

Of course i ask this now but i got married under that very same delusion and yes, for me, it was a delusion.

my parents have been married for 36 years. my dad cheated. It devastated my mother. Why does doing something which the majority of people do have to be so devastating? It's like we're living in some kind of fantasy land where those who don't drink the koolaid, or stop drinking it as the case may be, are painted as the perpetrators of some horrible crime.

Before i had an extramarital relationship i tried to get my husband's consent. He couldn't give it. At some point i decided i was going to cheat on him because the only other alternatives were to divorce or live in misery. In the end i did cheat on him once before i told him outright i did not want his consent to have other relationships.

Now days he knows i do not stand by any promise i made in a mormon temple. None. Period. End of story. We are openly non-monogamous although to my knowledge i am the only one who has ventured outside the marriage. when he does, and i know it is simply a matter of time before he experiments, i will have no problem with it. i don't really want details but i do want him to be happy and fulfilled, to have someone who can love him, especially sexually, in the ways i am unable to. In short, i trust him. i trust him completely.

The vast majority of people do not have only one partner during their lifetimes and yet that was the ideal i was sold and bought into before reality reared its ugly head. The statistics don't lie. Most people don't mate for life and even if they do most of them cheat.

To me its just a silly ideal to try and live up to. i refuse to be held hostage by another person's insecurity. Period.

For the record i don't consider myself poly. We are something in between. i have one on one relationships with 2 men and i don't want either of them encroaching on the other.

 

[00Syd]

I also find the "poly is so enlightened" thing kind of tiresome,

I find the entire Mono vs. Poly debate and all of its re-heated arguments (including that one) to be kind of tiresome.

 

[FurryFury]

I've been given "permission" to cheat and told I will be forgiven. I know it would hurt my husband and our relationship. While he might be able to forgive as he says, I am almost certain I could not forgive myself.

OTOH, I have done the online thing in the past. He didn't feel a need to forgive me for that at all. Therefore I felt okay about it until I couldn't give as much as I wanted to, then I felt like crap.

We have talked about adding another into our relationship but are quite sure it could do more damage than good.

So, yeah, monogamous even though I'm a sub and he is not a Dom. We are both kinky. We are both dedicated to making this relationship work. For the most part we both feel grateful to have found one another and love our lives.

For us monogamy is not a hard ship or anything close to it. We are mostly happy but do we think about others sometimes? Yep. We are monogamous not dead. We simply have enough care and loyalty for one another, our kids and our relationship to say, no.

 

[Netzach]

Lots of monogamous couples fuck around or play around (with mutual understanding and consent.) That doesn't make them non-monogamous.

How does it not?

They may not be polyamorous in the sense of we live together and hold hands, but they're not monogamous. An open relationship is not monogamy.

 

[TheCarver]

I guess I must be really old fashioned or something but I kinda believe that everyone has the right to be whatever they want to be. Mono or Poly could be view in the same light as gay, bi, or hetero. We're all different.

Where I draw the line in my own personal life is that I will not allow society to judge me or how I live. As long as I am paying my taxes and abiding by the laws, fuck society. They do not clean my house, cook my meals, or pay my bills so who are they to tell me how to live.

For those of you out there that are living your lives the way you want to, BRAVO! We need more like you. Eventually it will all equal out and either the human race will become obsolete or we will pull our heads out and truly understand equality means that we are all equal.

 

[Netzach]

Where I draw the line in my own personal life is that I will not allow society to judge me or how I live. As long as I am paying my taxes and abiding by the laws, fuck society. They do not clean my house, cook my meals, or pay my bills so who are they to tell me how to live.

QFT, nice. They're going to try their damnedest though.

 

[ataxia.girl]

How does it not?

They may not be polyamorous in the sense of we live together and hold hands, but they're not monogamous. An open relationship is not monogamy.

Actually according to definition 2b i am monogamous.

mo·nog·a·my (m-ng-m)
n.
1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
2.
a. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
b. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.
3. Zoology The condition of having only one mate during a breeding season or during the breeding life of a pair.

 

[eastern sun]

the feelings of insecurity and questioning of self-worth you expressed are exactly what i feel when confronted with the very idea of my Master loving someone else, or even deeply caring for someone else. He is my whole heart, it only makes sense to me that i should be his.

unfortunately i had a rude awakening when i realized that he is not wired quite the same way i am. He is able to care for more than one woman at a time, and this revelation completely shattered my world. all the confidence, the sense of value, of specialness, the shaky self-esteem...all these things he had built up in me sense being his slave, and just like that they all just disappeared. it was a nightmare, to put it very mildly.

but of course as a slave, i had to learn to accept it like i accept everything else. it still hurts, and many things will never be the same, but i no longer view his ability to care for others as a sign that i am just not good enough.

Me, too. This is a killer.

And, honestly, I used the relationships I had with other people to rebuild my self-esteem. I started acting on his fantasies in new and surprising ways, and it pleased him.

(I have to admit it also helped for me to realize that if he decided to spend more time with other women, they would have to deal with the more difficult parts of him too. I just hated the period when he was having fun with them, and giving me his dark moods. )

Ultimately, we grew much closer through sharing all that together.

 

[subish2009]

At the risk of pissing off online-only people everywhere (including you), I'm gonna be candid here.

I believe that your feelings and attachment for your online Dom are real, but that the online Dom himself is really not. That is to say - of course there is an actual human being on the other side of the screen, but if you have never met him and interacted with him on a day-to-day basis, then the person you perceive him to be is largely fantasy based. There are a million blanks that you can fill in, according to your liking. He can "get" you completely, partly because you may be well matched but also because you gloss over any hints to the contrary and substitute something positive in any areas of uncertainty. He can be the most understanding person on the planet, because online it costs him nothing.

On the one hand, as you say, it would be foolish for your husband to feel threatened by a fantasy figure. On the other hand, it is impossible for any human, living 24/7 with the ups and downs and challenges of partnership in an actual, three-dimensional existence, to compete with a fantasy construction. And you just told me, explicitly, that you compare the two and find your husband lacking.

Hmmm...it doesn't piss me off, but I think it may be misguided. Or at least that you're making some assumptions. Or at the very least that I haven't given you enough info.

1. Yes, I agree with you and am very aware that it is one thing to live with someone and deal together with life's trials and tribulations. It's quite another thing to exchange a dozen or so PMs every day. Last Sunday, when he was all pissy because his team didn't win and he stomped around the house and drank himself halfway into the bag, i didn't have to be home with him to witness the pouting and drinking and be on the receiving end of any ill-tempered comments or lack thereof. I got to sit at home and send him some porn I thought he might like to make him feel better. Two entirely different realities, but to call what I have a fantasy? Mmmm...that's not right. That implies it's not real. It is real; nobody is faking anything in this relationship. It is what it is and it's VERY different from a husband/wife dyad with 13 years history, but it IS a relationship. My feelings are real, his feelings are real, and one type of love is no more real than another. Is it less tested? Yes. Is it easier? Hell yes. Is it less likely to last? Yes. Are we marriage material for one another? Hell, no! But neither of us is looking for that, so why should it matter?

2. The person I perceive him to be is no less valid than if we had been going on dates for six months. It's not like we send PMs all day that are nothing by cybersex and D/s banter. We talk about anything and everything and after six or seven months of daily communication, I'm sorry, but if you're a reasonably perceptive individual, you can tell when someone's being authentic or not. Does that mean we have access to every part of one another's personalities? Of course not. It's much easier for me to hide how overly emotional and sensitive I am when I have time to collect myself before writing a message. We don't have to deal with each other's shit, but that doesn't mean that I don't know him. There are lots of people I am very close to offline, but I wouldn't say they don't censor who they are a little bit when they're with me. That's human nature; it's part of what makes society work.

3. If I said that I compare the two and find my husband lacking, I misspoke. No one is perfect. No one can be all things to any one person. My husband and I do not have a perfect relationship. There are things he can't give me that this man does. There are things this man can't give me that my husband does. And all that works both ways; I'm not picture of perfection myself, of which I'm acutely aware. But I don't see a problem with any of that. I don't expect one to compete with the other. They are very compartmentalized in my head; I don't do any, gosh, if only he could be more like him. They're completely different people. I don't have my online Dom because of any dissatisfaction with my husband. I just have him because...he's him. And I love him. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'd be happier with him than my husband. In fact, I'd bet that I wouldn't be.

4. I fear all of that may have been a reaction to feeling like you're making the old "online relationships aren't real relationships" argument, which I just find disrespectful to all the people who are in such relationships. Who is anyone to tell another that their love isn't real? Hopefully I misread you on that.

ETA: I went back and reread the part that seemed like i was explicitly comparing them. That was me trying to explain what I get out of the online relationship; why it's worth all the drama and pain; what it does for me. For what it's worth. Just trying to clarify.

 

[ataxia.girl]

It was an awakening for me when i found that all relationships have problems, not just the relationship with your primary partner.

Daddy and i spend more and more vanilla type time together, in fact it is the most vanilla when i am behaving myself (maybe that's why i misbehave so often). We argue about politics and discuss mundane things like any other couple. We sit around and watch movies and discuss our lives like any other couple.

The first time i found out Daddy had a serious girlfriend the jealousy was very intense, like nothing i could have prepared myself for. It sort of hit me out of left field since i had been so focused on how my husband would feel and how i would feel if i found out DH was with someone else. Turns out that is a lot easier for me to accept than the idea of Daddy finding himself a live-in 24/7 little girl but i know that's what he wants and is what he is looking for and he deserves to have it.

 

[JMohegan]

Hmmm...it doesn't piss me off, but I think it may be misguided. Or at least that you're making some assumptions. Or at the very least that I haven't given you enough info.

1. Yes, I agree with you and am very aware that it is one thing to live with someone and deal together with life's trials and tribulations. It's quite another thing to exchange a dozen or so PMs every day. Last Sunday, when he was all pissy because his team didn't win and he stomped around the house and drank himself halfway into the bag, i didn't have to be home with him to witness the pouting and drinking and be on the receiving end of any ill-tempered comments or lack thereof. I got to sit at home and send him some porn I thought he might like to make him feel better. Two entirely different realities, but to call what I have a fantasy? Mmmm...that's not right. That implies it's not real. It is real; nobody is faking anything in this relationship. It is what it is and it's VERY different from a husband/wife dyad with 13 years history, but it IS a relationship. My feelings are real, his feelings are real, and one type of love is no more real than another. Is it less tested? Yes. Is it easier? Hell yes. Is it less likely to last? Yes. Are we marriage material for one another? Hell, no! But neither of us is looking for that, so why should it matter?

2. The person I perceive him to be is no less valid than if we had been going on dates for six months. It's not like we send PMs all day that are nothing by cybersex and D/s banter. We talk about anything and everything and after six or seven months of daily communication, I'm sorry, but if you're a reasonably perceptive individual, you can tell when someone's being authentic or not. Does that mean we have access to every part of one another's personalities? Of course not. It's much easier for me to hide how overly emotional and sensitive I am when I have time to collect myself before writing a message. We don't have to deal with each other's shit, but that doesn't mean that I don't know him. There are lots of people I am very close to offline, but I wouldn't say they don't censor who they are a little bit when they're with me. That's human nature; it's part of what makes society work.

3. If I said that I compare the two and find my husband lacking, I misspoke. No one is perfect. No one can be all things to any one person. My husband and I do not have a perfect relationship. There are things he can't give me that this man does. There are things this man can't give me that my husband does. And all that works both ways; I'm not picture of perfection myself, of which I'm acutely aware. But I don't see a problem with any of that. I don't expect one to compete with the other. They are very compartmentalized in my head; I don't do any, gosh, if only he could be more like him. They're completely different people. I don't have my online Dom because of any dissatisfaction with my husband. I just have him because...he's him. And I love him. I'm not delusional enough to think that I'd be happier with him than my husband. In fact, I'd bet that I wouldn't be.

4. I fear all of that may have been a reaction to feeling like you're making the old "online relationships aren't real relationships" argument, which I just find disrespectful to all the people who are in such relationships. Who is anyone to tell another that their love isn't real? Hopefully I misread you on that.

ETA: I went back and reread the part that seemed like i was explicitly comparing them. That was me trying to explain what I get out of the online relationship; why it's worth all the drama and pain; what it does for me. For what it's worth. Just trying to clarify.

You did misread me. I specifically said: "I believe that your feelings and attachment for your online Dom are real."

You described yourself and your husband as "VERY different people emotionally" and declared: "My online Dom gets me on such a deep, intimate level and it's so nice to feel so well and easily understood...it's a major root of our bond to one another." I read that and wondered - what is the husband, the sperm donor? The guy who helps pay the mortgage and gives her some actual dick?

Compare your description to ES's characterization of her husband as her "soulmate." Do you have something equally profound and wonderful to say about the guy you married, other than the fact that you're committed to staying with him because you don't believe in divorce?

All of these are rhetorical questions. I'm not asking you to spill your guts here, and I'm not trying to criticize you or take shots at online relationships. I'm just encouraging you to look at the situation from a different angle.

 

[JMohegan]

I tend to look at the definitions in terms of established relationships, with some sort of commitment or general expectation between the people involved. Lots of monogamous couples fuck around or play around (with mutual understanding and consent.) That doesn't make them non-monogamous. Similarly, casually dating & fucking multiple females doesn't make someone like me poly; I'd consider that to be a phase in which a monogamous person is flying solo.

How does it not?

They may not be polyamorous in the sense of we live together and hold hands, but they're not monogamous. An open relationship is not monogamy.

See the part in bold. That's the way I look at it.

Living together not required in order to be in an established relationship. Holding hands optional.

 

[Netzach]

See the part in bold. That's the way I look at it.

Living together not required in order to be in an established relationship. Holding hands optional.

To me that's like "well I suck cock from time to time but I'm straight, really." Hey, call yourself whatever you want to feel good about yourself, but you were famous and you were going to be in a tabloid article, no one would necessarily agree with you. ANY strange, agreed to or not, is going to get out the knives and pitchforks after you.

 

[JMohegan]

To me that's like "well I suck cock from time to time but I'm straight, really." Hey, call yourself whatever you want to feel good about yourself, but you were famous and you were going to be in a tabloid article, no one would necessarily agree with you.

I don't think it's a question of feeling good about yourself. To me, this is about respect for the concept of polyamory.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think it's a question of feeling good about yourself. To me, this is about respect for the concept of polyamory.

OK, that makes sense, which is why the term never really worked that well for me. I've always considered myself "in an open relationship" because the polyamory community seemed after something much more intentional in a way, and nicer about it than I am in my own life. I fuck. My sense of morality is pretty much - are people leaving their children in a cloud of hormonal stupor? Are kittens being stomped? Is anyone being raped? Good, no. OK.

But I can't possibly default to "I'm monogamous."

But that's one of my biggest complaints. There's monogamy, and polyamory which is a kind of idealized, loving, model-relationship thing, and then there's probably where most human sexuality actually happens, with all its attendant lies, dysfunction, mess, and interestingness and beauty, and there aren't any good buzzwords for it.

 

[JMohegan]

OK, that makes sense, which is why the term never really worked that well for me. I've always considered myself "in an open relationship" because the polyamory community seemed after something much more intentional in a way, and nicer about it than I am in my own life.

But I can't possibly default to "I'm monogamous."

But that's one of my biggest complaints. There's monogamy, and polyamory which is a kind of idealized, loving, model-relationship thing, and then there's probably where most human sexuality actually happens, with all its attendant lies, dysfunction, mess, and interestingness and beauty, and there aren't any good buzzwords for it.

Make one up! Enter it on Urban Dictionary.

 

[Netzach]

Make one up! Enter it on Urban Dictionary.

I'm not that creative. I'm in an open relationship. On those stupid myspace things I go with "it's complicated" at the risk of being labeled a drama queen.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm not that creative. I'm in an open relationship. On those stupid myspace things I go with "it's complicated" at the risk of being labeled a drama queen.

I'd help you, but I'm no linguist. Maybe one of the English majors here can figure something out.

Do you really have a myspace thing? God, I'm such a dinosaur.

 

[Netzach]

I'd help you, but I'm no linguist. Maybe one of the English majors here can figure something out.

Do you really have a myspace thing? God, I'm such a dinosaur.

LOL only for purely vanilla biz purposes, there is NO WAY I would otherwise. The world I am in tolerates a little social life spice and expects it, so, yeah. I'm a Sagittarius and "it's complicated" Barf.

 

[rida]

But that's one of my biggest complaints. There's monogamy, and polyamory which is a kind of idealized, loving, model-relationship thing, and then there's probably where most human sexuality actually happens, with all its attendant lies, dysfunction, mess, and interestingness and beauty, and there aren't any good buzzwords for it.

life

ETA: Now how the hell did that thumb down show up?????
GRRRRR

Sorry!

 

[JMohegan]

LOL only for purely vanilla biz purposes, there is NO WAY I would otherwise.

Good to know!

 

[subish2009]

You did misread me. I specifically said: "I believe that your feelings and attachment for your online Dom are real."

So you did. Apologies. It's a complicated topic.

You described yourself and your husband as "VERY different people emotionally" and declared: "My online Dom gets me on such a deep, intimate level and it's so nice to feel so well and easily understood...it's a major root of our bond to one another." I read that and wondered - what is the husband, the sperm donor? The guy who helps pay the mortgage and gives her some actual dick?

Ha! No, he's much more than the sperm donor, financier, and actual dick. I didn't realize I was coming off so blase about him....I think when you've kind of grown up with somebody and they're your best friend you can kind of forget that not everybody can see that as obviously as you can...especially online!

My feelings of love and affection for my husband are profound and wonderful. We are VERY compatible in most every way except the one I was trying to describe (and obviously failed to do so). I won't lay all those reasons out here because they're beside the point. I think the point is that I'm not with my husband because I don't believe in divorce....I actually do believe in divorce when appropriate...what defines "appropriate" is a whole other can of worms and neither here nor there. I'm with him because I want to be and I stand by my decision to marry him. I'm not with the man online because I wish I'd married differently; I love them both. That was supposed to be my whole point.

Compare your description to ES's characterization of her husband as her "soulmate." Do you have something equally profound and wonderful to say about the guy you married, other than the fact that you're committed to staying with him because you don't believe in divorce?

All of these are rhetorical questions. I'm not asking you to spill your guts here, and I'm not trying to criticize you or take shots at online relationships. I'm just encouraging you to look at the situation from a different angle.

Whatever. This whole topic is so complicated and it's hard enough for me to sift through my own feelings and those of my two Ds. I should have known better than to try to explain them to a complete stranger, especially in an online forum where fluid conversation is impossible. Especially on a day when I'm particularly emotional. My husband knows I love him, my online D knows I love him, I know they love me, and we'll do our best to wade through the rest of it. Like everyone does, mono, poly, whatever. I'm out.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Me, too. This is a killer.

And, honestly, I used the relationships I had with other people to rebuild my self-esteem. I started acting on his fantasies in new and surprising ways, and it pleased him.

(I have to admit it also helped for me to realize that if he decided to spend more time with other women, they would have to deal with the more difficult parts of him too. I just hated the period when he was having fun with them, and giving me his dark moods. )

Ultimately, we grew much closer through sharing all that together.

unfortunately i cannot say it did the same for us. even though it's not mutual, i feel a tremendous gap between us that just wasn't there before (or rather, i didn't see it). He accepts and cherishes my obsessive, laser-focused love toward him, but does not understand why i cannot wrap my brain around his "there are no boundaries to love" wiring. i think for the time being, we have given up trying to understand one another in that area. it is still tender and prickly, and besides, it is very likely that we won't ever be on the same page there, so why continue to agonize over it.

one thing it has shown us...we are really, really, madly in love with each other and have a crack addict type NEED for each other. these things are unconditional. for better or worse, that is where we are, who we are.

 

[JMohegan]

But I can't possibly default to "I'm monogamous."

By the way, Netzach, not that it matters how I would describe you, but per my notion of "established relationships" and according to my reading of you, I'd say you're in three. With M, T, and H. Not 3 picket fences, but 3 distinct and meaningful bonds.

I would have described you as poly, for that reason. But I know what you mean about the idealized poly expectation in some circles. All kidding aside, our language really is inadequate when it comes to alternative relationship structures - probably because, as you say, so many mainstream people are reluctant to legitimize them in any way.