What does Putin want at this point?

[pecksniff]

It must be obvious even to him, by now, that he has no hope of winning anything of value to Russia in this war. Victory means diverting scarce resources to hold down an inevitable guerilla insurgency, and setting off a scaled-down version of the Cold War that could last decades -- and victory is not likely to be within his grasp any time soon. He has the power to declare himself satisfied with Crimea and Donbas, and break off the fighting. The Ukrainians certainly would not continue it unilaterally.

 

[Dribble]

Same thing he always wanted...to be feared. Too bad he has started a 100 yr war with his neighbor

 

[KeithD]

I think he'll decide to be content for now to take over the enclaves that he declared as the objective to begin with--and then work on more if he lives long enough to do so.

 

[pecksniff]

He must know he's not making Russia look good. It's not like the old days, when Russia could claim to be at the vanguard of a global movement. No country in the world has any ideological, moral or non-material reason not to side against Russia under its present leadership. Aligning the whole world against your country is not good international-relations politics.

 

[KeithD]

As some of the news has pointed out, the whole world isn't aligned against Russia in this yet. Some of the most populous countries--China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, Mexico (all in the top ten)--haven't aligned against Russia yet.

 

[Champakian]

His overnight purge seems to indicate that he wants victory (the reconstituted USSR), or else...

I think he still feels that Ukraine will eventually collapse and surrender under pressure
because no one is going to step in and stop it. We'll send missiles and munitions,
but that is all that there is the political will for.

Please don't take this as me advocating for boots on the ground,
but this really is the Poland scenario. If Putin wins,
then it's Baba O'Riley and Who's Next?

 

[icanhelp1]

His overnight purge seems to indicate that he wants victory (the reconstituted USSR), or else...

I think he still feels that Ukraine will eventually collapse and surrender under pressure
because no one is going to step in and stop it. We'll send missiles and munitions,
but that is all that there is the political will for.

Please don't take this as me advocating for boots on the ground,
but this really is the Poland scenario. If Putin wins,
then it's Baba O'Riley and Who's Next?

I believe Poland is off the table. It's one thing to fight against the Ukrainian military ( which have done a valiant job ) it's another reality for Putin going directly against the west and an *article 5*. Putin's conventional army and airforce would be dealing with a force that no longer has any restraints. That conflict would probably still take place over the Ukraine mainland and everything with a red star is a target. Putin can't hide from an advanced air force. If Putin launches, welp, everybody loses including Russia.

 

[Champakian]

Poland was used as the historical example...

Ukraine (Putin) == Poland (Hitler)

 

[Dribble]

I think he'll decide to be content for now to take over the enclaves that he declared as the objective to begin with--and then work on more if he lives long enough to do so.

But Ukrainians will never allow it now that Putin has committed war crimes. Would you? If your family members were murdered...raped...rounded up and sent to prison camps...you would just sit back and do nothing?

 

[Champakian]

The powerless do.

As Dr. Daeshik Kim tells us, if you are weak, your only option is to turn the other cheek...

 

[Dribble]

As some of the news has pointed out, the whole world isn't aligned against Russia in this yet. Some of the most populous countries--China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil, Mexico (all in the top ten)--haven't aligned against Russia yet.

And every country that we give weapons to...that we help in any way...should expect our generosity to disappear. You support Fascism...you are Fascists. India...fuck you. Pakistan...fuck you. Brazil...fuck you. Mexico...fuck you. We already knew China is our enemy...wtf are we doing being dependent on them? This country is too stupid to survive

 

[mayfly13]

Every day you see more evidence of atrocities against civilians.

Eventually, Europe and the US will Have to intervene directly.

I know they're -understandably- trying to avoid 10 times more carnage,
but legally, how long can they go ignoring genocide?

 

[mayfly13]

And every country that we give weapons to...that we help in any way...should expect our generosity to disappear. You support Fascism...you are Fascists. India...fuck you. Pakistan...fuck you. Brazil...fuck you. Mexico...fuck you. We already knew China is our enemy...wtf are we doing being dependent on them? This country is too stupid to survive

I read comments on youtube, and many people from those countries are in glee over Putin's victories and destruction of Ukraine.
They see Putin as some sort of avenger Angel warrior trying to stop the Evil West.

I don't judge their lack of empathy, most Whites don't give two fucks about massacres on Asian /South American continents either... they're just pass-time news for most of us.
But their stupidity comes from the fact that Ukrainians might be White, but they have nothing to do with the West,

 

[Dribble]

Every day you see more evidence of atrocities against civilians.

Eventually, Europe and the US will Have to intervene directly.

I know they're -understandably- trying to avoid 10 times more carnage,
but legally, how long can they go ignoring genocide?

You and I finally agree. We are already involved. Fighting any war half-assed is a 100% guarantee of losing that war. Just because they aren't our people dying doesn't mean we should sit back and do nothing. How did trying to stay uninvolved in WW2 work out? Shall we ask the Jews? Or the other persecuted races?

 

[KeithD]

But Ukrainians will never allow it now that Putin has committed war crimes. Would you? If your family members were murdered...raped...rounded up and sent to prison camps...you would just sit back and do nothing?

Yes, I think that, under the circumstances, if Putin retrenches to just taking the enclaves and probably a land bridge to Crimea, Ukrainians will accept this for now, knowing that unless regime change in Russia happens sooner, Putin will be back to try for more later. That doesn't mean they will forget or condone what's happened. It means they are realistic to wanting/needing the bloodletting to stop and for them still to have a country that now needs to be rebuilt. Putin isn't doing anything now that he didn't do in the Crimea and Ukrainians adjusted to that as long as they still had a country. Ukraine is not strong enough to "never allow" much of anything. They'll be mighty lucky to get out of this without being brought back into Russian control.

 

[KeithD]

You and I finally agree. We are already involved. Fighting any war half-assed is a 100% guarantee of losing that war. Just because they aren't our people dying doesn't mean we should sit back and do nothing. How did trying to stay uninvolved in WW2 work out? Shall we ask the Jews? Or the other persecuted races?

We're not "doing nothing." We're providing the support that has thus far kept Ukraine going. What support do you think would be there if Donald Trump was still in the White House and under Putin's thumb?

 

[KeithD]

And every country that we give weapons to...that we help in any way...should expect our generosity to disappear. You support Fascism...you are Fascists. India...fuck you. Pakistan...fuck you. Brazil...fuck you. Mexico...fuck you. We already knew China is our enemy...wtf are we doing being dependent on them? This country is too stupid to survive

Turning them around by leveraging our relationship with them would be a lot more effective, I think. This is not a simplistic world.

 

[icanhelp1]

Poland was used as the historical example...

Ukraine (Putin) == Poland (Hitler)

OH! Nevermind!

 

[icanhelp1]

Every day you see more evidence of atrocities against civilians.

Eventually, Europe and the US will Have to intervene directly.

I know they're -understandably- trying to avoid 10 times more carnage,
but legally, how long can they go ignoring genocide?

If the West directly engages Russian forces *you, we* should be prepared for an apocalyptic event where billions of people would be exposed to carnage on a scale never before experienced. Maybe do a little research on half/ life of radioactive material. Need to have the intestinal fortitude to engage in full comprehensive sanctions ( not the shit that's going on now ) and really hurt the Russian economy, and let sanctions take hold. Deliver massive amounts of military hardware and pray for the best. Covert spec ops from western countries, perhaps to man systems like s400, anti ship missiles, train Ukraine mech infantry on large scale armor battle tactics, I suspect this is going on as we speak.

 

[Dribble]

Turning them around by leveraging our relationship with them would be a lot more effective, I think. This is not a simplistic world.

It is very simplistic. Only idiots over-complicate simple issues. Russia has destroyed Ukrainian cities. Only a fool would let this go. If they do, in a few years they will be back taking more. Putin has made this a moral issue. Odd...Republicans typically not known for moral standards...understand. Democrats...continue to be stupid.

 

[KeithD]

It is very simplistic. Only idiots over-complicate simple issues. Russia has destroyed Ukrainian cities. Only a fool would let this go. If they do, in a few years they will be back taking more. Putin has made this a moral issue. Odd...Republicans typically not known for moral standards...understand. Democrats...continue to be stupid.

I think you're an example of oversimplification that isn't attainable. I doubt you've ever had to be involved in working anything like this. It's an easy call from a recliner.

 

[Rightguide]

It must be obvious even to him, by now, that he has no hope of winning anything of value to Russia in this war. Victory means diverting scarce resources to hold down an inevitable guerilla insurgency, and setting off a scaled-down version of the Cold War that could last decades -- and victory is not likely to be within his grasp any time soon. He has the power to declare himself satisfied with Crimea and Donbas, and break off the fighting. The Ukrainians certainly would not continue it unilaterally.

If Biden forces Zelensky to make a deal now, Putin will end up with more territory than he started out with before the invasion. At this point, it appears Joe is trying to force a deal and placate Putin.

 

[pecksniff]

Poland was used as the historical example...

Ukraine (Putin) == Poland (Hitler)

Hitler's plan for Poland was to either kill, enslave, or drive to Siberia all the Poles, and resettle their territory with Germans.

I hope Putin is not thinking in such terms.

 

[pecksniff]

If Biden forces Zelensky to make a deal now, Putin will end up with more territory than he started out with before the invasion. At this point, it appears Joe is trying to force a deal and placate Putin.

Woldn't that be the best resolution possible at this point? Driving the Russians out of Crimea or Donbass is not a realistic objective.

 

[pecksniff]

It is very simplistic. Only idiots over-complicate simple issues. Russia has destroyed Ukrainian cities. Only a fool would let this go. If they do, in a few years they will be back taking more. Putin has made this a moral issue. Odd...Republicans typically not known for moral standards...understand. Democrats...continue to be stupid.

I'm sure Zelensky wants to let it go. If this war will only end with Ukraine free, he would be willing to make friends with Russia, or at least to present no threat to it, no talk of action in revenge.