What do think about the so called War on Drugs???

[FlamingoBlue]

I am all for legalizing, controling and taxing all the drugs that are currently decimating our populations, corrupting and/or overtaxing our law enforcement officers, our prisons and judiciary, and wasting billions of dollars. The money saved in enforcment and/or recieved in the form of new taxes could be redirected to rebuilding our cities, improving education, finding cures for horrible deseases,funding election campaigns and a billion other things.

I say that we can never win the war on drugs because the demand will always be there. I believe that there is a conspiracy (yep, that's what I said), between government and drug producing countries and cartels to oppose legalization. I believe, too, that there is also a racist taint to that conspiracy, particularly here in the U.S. where those imprisoned, addicted or killed are overwhelmingly Black.

I say that drugs should be treated like alcohol and tobacco. Control them and then tax the living fuck out of them. (Drugs are not that expensive to produce). Can you imagine the savings in manpower and human life that would result. (Tax money could also be used for treatment and education). Prohibition didn't work, and neither will the War on Drugs.

We have a drug Czar in the U.S.. We have the DEA, the FBI, the ATF, police department drug squads and members of our Armed forces all attempting to stem the flow of drugs into this country an/or attempting to arrest, convict and imprison those who are producing, selling AND using drugs in the U.S. We also have similar agencies in every country of the world that are trying to do the same thing, and they are failing miserably, too.

I'll tell you the main reason why drugs are illegal. It ain't health concerns or morality. Otherwise alcohol and tobacco would be illegal, too. The real reason is MONEY!!!! There is just too much money to be made in this business by a select group of people with a lot of power. End of story.

What do you think?

blue

 

[Todd]

The war on drugs has been a blazing success for its true plan.

1. It makes criminals out of harmless productive members of society

2. It removes the only respite some pain sufferers have from medical conditions.

3. It has made our police force into a police state .

4. It has given the real drug lords a good laugh while they are left alone will they pay off the authories and they watch the cops go after the people not causing trouble.

5. It has inticed more people to look into these "Oh so evil drugs" rather than scare them away.

Slavery is Free, Freedom comes at a cost.

 

[FlamingoBlue]

So Todd responds, but where are the rest

of you. The silent majority thread is right on. You folks can't even see that you are being royally fucked and you are so apatheyic thatwhen you do, you do nothing about it. Generation X, my ass. This is generation ZZZZZZZZZZ.

 

[Todd]

I tried to fight the war on drugs up here I wrote my MP's{candain equivilant of a congress man I think}, and I wrote my Premier{Canadian equivilent of a governor I believe}. I didn't ote for anyone who did support it, I went to the town and city meetings and spoke out against it.

Now haivng said that, No i do not supprot people using drugs, but why are we placing such an emphasise{sp} of catching the at home personal Marijuana user who isn't harming anyone but themselves, and it isn't affecting thier workplace productivity, yet turning our back on the the drug czars and lords.

We are overpopulating the prisons by going after the wrong people. But its all about quotas and numbers isn't it?

 

[Andra_Jenny]

I've been fighting on the wrong side for years. I am one of those the holds with the, "drug laws enacted due to hysteria and racial," arguments crowd. Damn silly waste of time. Hell I can go cut down pot now if I wanted to. Which I don't since the days are still longer then 12 hours...

 

[Tabby432]

I agree... hence the silent part.

 

[Weevil]

The war on drugs is over....

...and drugs won

A few things.

1) Todd, An MP is essentially a Congressman and Senator combined.

2) We're not filling our prisons with weed smokers. Posession is usually just met with a fine if its under a certain amount(AN ounce I believe. Or a half-quarter I forget.) and Canada doesn't have a lot of people in jail for shmokin'

3) You know who are the two biggest enemies of legalization??? Right wingers and Drug Dealers.

 

[Angel]

I suppose we're supposed to be vocal over every single issue in the known universe, huh Blue?

 

[Tabby432]

Wrong!

You know who are the two biggest enemies of legalization??? Right wingers and Drug Dealers.

They're apathetic, they don't vote.

I should get bonus points for combining todays topics

 

[Weevil]

Re: Wrong!

They're apathetic, they don't vote.

If only that were true. Sadly, rightwingers vote quite a bit.

 

[Tabby432]

Damn! In my haste to take over the board, thus stopping the evil myst, I forgot to say drug dealers.

 

[Todd]

Re: The war on drugs is over....

...and drugs won

A few things.

1) Todd, An MP is essentially a Congressman and Senator combined.

2) We're not filling our prisons with weed smokers. Posession is usually just met with a fine if its under a certain amount(AN ounce I believe. Or a half-quarter I forget.) and Canada doesn't have a lot of people in jail for shmokin'

3) You know who are the two biggest enemies of legalization??? Right wingers and Drug Dealers.

1) I wasn't quite sure, but thought it was something like that.

2) In New brunswick and i think Novascotia over 1/2 the jail and prison population is wed smokers on varying 1-9 month sentences, usually out in 1/4 of the time but still they are unnecessarily taking up space needed for the harders crimals which i just read in a New Brunswick paper we let over 500 walk out of custody on "probation"{Slap on the wrist, for armed asault robbery, breakins etc.} in the 1st 1/2 of 2001 because there was no room in the jails for them.

3) I know right wingers are opposed cause its so evil to let people have drugs. But lok at 3/4 - 7/8 of Pastors kids in the maritimes who are told no sex until marriage. Most of them of them have popped or been popping cherries since before legal age. I agree the Right shoots itself in the foot a lot of times on these issues. Cutting its nose off dispite its face in effect.

And of course the Drug dealers are against it, the government would get a huge cut in the profit by means of taxes, plus legalizing drugs would make sales go down due to the mystic/viel of doing something bad or illegal taken away. to see if this isn't so study the prohibition days whmn beer was illegal, more people drank it or tred to, the prohibition was lifted sales and use went down.

 

[Weevil]

Firstly I think that we're together on my first two points. I meant Ont. I suppose where I think the people in jail for posession is under 15%.


BTW What do you think of your fancy-pants CCRAP now???? Not much of a caucus left, is there? He'll have to move out of Stornaway soon

 

[Todd]

Firstly I think that we're together on my first two points. I meant Ont. I suppose where I think the people in jail for posession is under 15%.


BTW What do you think of your fancy-pants CCRAP now???? Not much of a caucus left, is there? He'll have to move out of Stornaway soon

I never wanted Crapwell Day in there as leadership and voted against it, I just had a bad feeling about the deal. I told the person who introduced me to the party when it was still Reform. He called me up the other week and asked how I knew, I told him it was a gut feeling.

I actually think this was a Liberal Johhnny Crapping plant plan in the first place. but its merely theory and speculation.

a) When Crapwell was announced in the running for leadership, CA membership almost doubled.

b) Soon as he was voted in the membership decreased but an identical number of joiners. Due to confideniality clause I couldn't ge the name list for membership or removal of such.

Could they be Liberal or PC plants to put a man in they could later use to destroy the party?? who knows but the records do seem to kinda indicate it.

 

[Weevil]

Who the hell is Johnny Crapping Plant? I don't think that Day is a PC or Lib plant(That's more of a Tom Long-Alliance tricK) I think one of the sure signs of Day's boobishness is that all of the Rebel Alliance MP's were the only real smart folk in his party. Oh well. I see big things for the NDP in a few years. Alliance backlash, doncha know.

 

[Todd]

You know Johnny Crapping our Prime Minister?

The NDP may stand a chance in the ontario and west regions but they don't have a snowballs chance in Hell here in the maritimes, they burnt thier bridges back here. Probably through out the 3 maritime province sthey might get a combined toal of 1000 votes maybe 1200 if the weather conditions are good.

I can't remember what exactly it was that they did that was so bad it was just before my time of even caring about politics 10-15 years ago.

 

[Boxstar]

War? what war?

I can get drugs whenever I want them. So apparently all those billions of dollars that are going towards the war on drugs are going right in the pipe (so to speak).

 

[Weevil]

You know Johnny Crapping our Prime Minister?

The NDP may stand a chance in the ontario and west regions but they don't have a snowballs chance in Hell here in the maritimes, they burnt thier bridges back here. Probably through out the 3 maritime province sthey might get a combined toal of 1000 votes maybe 1200 if the weather conditions are good.

I can't remember what exactly it was that they did that was so bad it was just before my time of even caring about politics 10-15 years ago.

I know the man's name but on a lazy saturday evening my mind is too chilling to pick up on your subtle jokes

You might be right. Besides, I don't vote NDP. Green Party in 200? !

 

[Todd]

This is almost fun . Finally a decent discussion on Canadian Politics for a change, The 'mericans should be proud of me for not picking out them for a change.

No green canadates in the maritimes either. The Alliacne was our last real hope for something different to take place. 2 more years of complete PC rule which followed 4 years of complete Liberal rule here in the maritimes, most people who are not die hards are thoroughly disinfranchised with both parties.


I have a local Mayoral race coming up in two years. first step in runnig for Prime Minister by the time I am 35. Isn't that a frightful thought.

 

[Weevil]

I have a local Mayoral race coming up in two years. first step in runnig for Prime Minister by the time I am 35. Isn't that a frightful thought.

It is but it isn't much more frightening than the thought of some of the other people who could take over from Chretien. Martin???? Copps???? I kind of like Tobin and Mills but the Libs are probably going to win the country for the next 10 years and the guys behind Jean are frightening.

 

[FlamingoBlue]

Todd and EBW, I'm glad you're having....

such a good discussion. As for the war on drugs, it was lost long ago.

blue

 

[Todd]

It is but it isn't much more frightening than the thought of some of the other people who could take over from Chretien. Martin???? Copps???? I kind of like Tobin and Mills but the Libs are probably going to win the country for the next 10 years and the guys behind Jean are frightening.

I agree that is a frightful thought that the Liberals will have full control for the next little while that is why now we have to make sure that every voter gets out and votes and knows what he/she/it is voting for. I don't care wheter they cote PC, CA, NDP or Green but we got to water down the Liberal hold with a few other seats in place. If they get a full house like what the next election looks like coming up we are doomed.

Have you been reading any of the Liberal papers and the Liberal webpage for thier goals? Just plain scary what they have planned.

 

[Todd]

Sorry FB taking it to a new thread.


Back to your war on drugs, Success or failure?

 

[Weevil]

Forget it.

 

[Unclebill]

First, I disagree with the perception that drugs are decimating our population. How could you come to that conclusion when drug deaths on an annual basis are about 1% of the deaths resulting from alcohol and tobacco use? This is based on figures from the late 90's when annual deaths from the illegal drugs ran about 5,000 per year and alcohol and tobacco took a toll of about 500,000.

The only significant difference being that tobacco takes a longer time to kill than most of the illegal variety of drugs.

These laws violate the Federal government's legitimate authority under the Constitution (as do myriad others, BTW).

And from the side of law enforcement officers, DA's and judges, many of them don't want the gravy train to end for sure. They are one of the prime beneficiaries of asset forfeiture laws which allows the theft of personal private property for use many times by them in their private lives. See: http://www.geocities.com/john_galt76/AssetForfeiture.html

Laws prohibiting drug use, possession and sale are a violation of your right to choose the course of your life from a philosophical perspective. But they provide a means of politicians exercising still more power over the lives and property of other people. And if a few innocent citizens die along the way, well, that's the price of their good intentions.

One of the arguments against keeping drugs illegal is the public safety factor that politicians either ignore or discount as specious. The fact is that the wars being waged on our city streets are due to the high price/profit of the drug business. The risk because of the illegality is what raises the price and the profits. So those who try to dismiss the public safety aspect are not being honest. But then what can you expect from politicians?

And about the best argument that the drug war cannot be won is advanced most eloquently when you look at the price of the stuff. From all recent accounts I've heard, the price of a given quantity of any drug is virtually the same inside our jails and prisons as on the streets.

Now how can anyone seriously say they believe the Drug War can be won when people incarcerated have the same access to thee drugs as do free men in a free society? But politicians have an enviable ability to ignore facts and reality.

But a word of caution regarding your idea to "Control them and then tax the living fuck out of them". This brings about a black market which brings out the darker side of the business once again. Just like the cigarette taxes of excessive levels create a black market in tax free cigarettes and the potential violence associated therewith, putting excess taxation on drugs would put us back where we are now, with street wars among the smugglers.

As to usage rising or dropping with legalization, I doubt there would be any significant change. And, Todd, I've heard statistics on both sides of the alcohol prohibition years of the U. S. One set says alcohol use dropped slightly during prohibition (although violent crime skyrocketed) and another says alcohol use rose slightly.

The most interesting thing I gleaned from these two opposing sets of statistics is that there was not a particularly significant change whichever way it went.