Weapons of Mass Destruction

[zipman]

But do you think most Americans feel the same?

You have obviously thought your position out very carefully, and base your support on valid reasons; but there is a depressing lack of willingness to engage in critical thinking these days. The majority of people (on both the pro- and anti-war sides, and regardless of nationality) seem only too willing to internalize the 'opinions' being handed to them: "It's all about oil!" or "It's all about liberating the Iraqis!"

I think the real problem is that there seem to be a lot of issues that complicate this issue. One is that some people believe everything that the government says while the other believes nothing that the government says when the truth is somewhere in the middle.

In addition, there are some who are against Bush and therefore, allow partisan politics to influence their opinions just as others support it simply because he is a Republican.

The real problem is that so many have formed an opinion without researching the issues, and coming up with viable alternatives to military action.

 

[p_p_man]

Let them return, hopefully they will have enough courage to put on an Iraqi military uniform.

I don't get your sarcasm...

These are people who don't live under the Saddam regime, people who Bush would have us believe we are 'liberating' and yet they're returning to their own country to fight the coalition forces...

Don't you sometimes wonder why that is?

ppman

 

[ImpWizard]

It's often been true that one of the best ways to cope with a crisis is to have a sense of humour.

Anyway, sadly I have to leave this conversation as I need some sleep.
G'night all.

 

[Linedrive]

But do you think most Americans feel the same?

You have obviously thought your position out very carefully, and base your support on valid reasons; but there is a depressing lack of willingness to engage in critical thinking these days. The majority of people (on both the pro- and anti-war sides, and regardless of nationality) seem only too willing to internalize the 'opinions' being handed to them: "It's all about oil!" or "It's all about liberating the Iraqis!"

Cryse...I respect your opinion, you seem to be educated on the issues at hand and have a good way of transmitting your thoughts into the written word.

Unquestionably there have been mixed messages throughout this campaign, much of it has been media driven. The liberation of the Iraqi people has probably been the biggest story, the Bush administration has made no secret of demonizing Hussein and shining light on his attrocious human rights record and the media has taken hold it. I would not support this military action is the liberation of the Iraqi people was the sole issue at hand. If it happens and they are pleased about, that is only a bonus.

 

[Linedrive]

I don't get your sarcasm...

These are people who don't live under the Saddam regime, people who Bush would have us believe we are 'liberating' and yet they're returning to their own country to fight the coalition forces...

Don't you sometimes wonder why that is?

ppman

It's simple pp_man. People want to complain about civilian casualties, putting all the blame on the US/UK, while refusing to acknowledge that many of the Iraqi soldiers are appearing as civilians or using them as shields.

 

[p_p_man]

It's simple pp_man. People want to complain about civilian casualties, putting all the blame on the US/UK, while refusing to acknowledge that many of the Iraqi soldiers are appearing as civilians or using them as shields.

Oh...OK...



ppman

 

[crysede]

Pp and crazybbw – yeah, that's pretty much what I'm afraid of. I have my doubts about many Americans being willing to accept that the Iraqis could have almost as much reason for disliking the US, as they have for disliking Saddam.

Zip – I agree, that is the problem. People like to buy into fantasies of being the white-hat gunfighter, which both governments and activists are competing to supply. So why settle for the unpleasant and confusing messiness of reality, when you can be the be 'the great liberator of the oppressed,' or 'the great protester against the evil American empire!' Unfortunately, you can lead a human away from the TV, but you can't make 'em think

Gunner – I respect your opinion too, and hopefully my scepticism will prove to be excessive, and most Americans will be willing to take your realistic approach, rather than demanding reprisals against an ungrateful Iraqi populous.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

OMG - what's happening here? We are listening and talking to eachother! This is the most educational 'war' thread I've been on so far. Weird how our basic feelings about this war are pretty much the same - huh?

 

[Prince Romeo]

How could we not expect there to be resistance?

The fact that some folks are willing to fight to save Iraq should be of no surprise. Everyone has beliefs, regardless of whether those beliefs are right or wrong. Some people may even have a vested interest in seeing Sadam stay in power because their livilihood is at stake.

 

[Linedrive]

There is a group of people that have lived well under Hussein's regime, these are his loyalist and will defend him until the end. It includes members of his personal bodyguard, members of his cabinet, key members in the military, members of his special paramilitary groups, as well as civilians.

The average Iraqi probably doesn't like Hussein or the fact their country is being invaded. My hope is that in 10 years an Iraqi can look back and say it was best for his country.

 

[Prince Romeo]

There is a group of people that have lived well under Hussein's regime, these are his loyalist and will defend him until the end. It includes members of his personal bodyguard, members of his cabinet, key members in the military, members of his special paramilitary groups, as well as civilians.

The average Iraqi probably doesn't like Hussein or the fact their country is being invaded. My hope is that in 10 years an Iraqi can look back and say it was best for his country.

You'd hope that, but look at all the differences of opinion even among us. And none of us even live in Iraq. I'm sure the propaganda war will go on for years and years, but who knows, maybe in ten years the truth will finally have surfaced.

 

[Rooster]

I'd disagree with that 17 times over.

Lance and pp have been asleep for the past 12 years

 

[Alvin Brickrock]

i'll get it from my history prof today for you

Your history professor needs to ease off on the bong action.

 

[sensational204]

The average Iraqi probably doesn't like Hussein or the fact their country is being invaded. My hope is that in 10 years an Iraqi can look back and say it was best for his country.

This was the mantra of colonialism. A country with as much history as they have won't ever be happy about being invaded, even if it gets rid of Saddam. If anything, Saddam will just be elevated to the status of a Martyr in their history, as Stalin has been in Russia and Mao in China. Even many of our own founding fathers are now honored in spite of being racists and supporters of Slavery.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

This was the mantra of colonialism. A country with as much history as they have won't ever be happy about being invaded, even if it gets rid of Saddam. If anything, Saddam will just be elevated to the status of a Martyr in their history, as Stalin has been in Russia and Mao in China. Even many of our own founding fathers are now honored in spite of being racists and supporters of Slavery.

Which is exactly why 'regime change' doesn't work. Western countries have been trying to 'regime change' this region for over 100 years.

 

[Linedrive]

That's why there is no long term plan for occupation, only as long as it takes to establish security and begin help with the rebuilding of the country. What is so bad about the Iraqi people being able to decide who they really want for leadership...?

 

[Linedrive]

Which is exactly why 'regime change' doesn't work.

It works for the main goal of disarming Iraq

 

[8ball]

Imp made a perfectly valid point – if possession of chemical protection suits entails that Iraq is planning something, then the same must be true of the US, and every other country owning such suits.

This is, of course, absurd: we know the US owns these suits in case chemical weapons are used against them. It is equally absurd to assume that Iraq does not have the exact same reason – after all, the US possesses far more chemical weapons than Iraq could possibly have amassed, and there has been increasingly strong opposition, within the US, to America's current ban on chemical warfare. If the Iraqis somehow manage to make the going really tough for the US, I would certainly not rule out a chemical attack by US forces against the Iraqis.

Hello, crysede,
That post of mine was in reference to comments made by Imp in another thread. Granted, it should have been made there, but, me thinks I had 2 browsers opened and posted on the wrong thread. It happens.

I really don't think that the US would dare to use chemical weapons against the Iraqi's, that would be complete and total political suicide. Also for the reasons that the more well spoken and reasoned Gunner put forth.

I object to this comment :

/snip
I wasn't suggesting that the US military would attempt to sneak an attack in, I think that the US population might well support such an attack. A great number of people have a very visceral eye-for-an-eye attitude to warfare, and I see the possibility of a large anti-Iraqi sentiment on the horizon.
/end snip

I would disagree completely with you on your assertion that the US population would support an attack with chemical weapons. If the military were to use them, I believe there would be a massive reprisals against the Administration. I think this even if they were used against us first. Now, fewer people might be as upset, but, the majority would still be raising holy hell. The US has to take the high road for the sake of world opinion in Iraq. If we attempted to use chemical or bio weapons, the risk to the civilian population would be too great. Hell, we haven't even used the MOAB, that I know of anyway.

 

[sensational204]

That's why there is no long term plan for occupation, only as long as it takes to establish security and begin help with the rebuilding of the country. What is so bad about the Iraqi people being able to decide who they really want for leadership...?

But do you honestly think the US would let the Iraqi's elect anyone they wanted? Even if it was someone that we didn't approve of? I'm sure that the US will have a significant hand in installing a new leader, just as the British did with King Faisal I.

And I'm just curious Gunner, but what do you think is the solution to the situation in North Korea? Do you think we should follow the same formula as we did with Iraq for them?

 

[8ball]

There was a discussion on UK TV today about this. The general consensus being that when the war is over Iraqis as a whole will not welcome Americans and that most of the country will be a 'no go area' for the US. The reasons you have already mentioned but added to those is the constant bombing of Baghdad. Iraqis are seeing this war an invasion of their country and do not see the allies as a liberating force in any shape or form...

Iraqis in neighbouring countries such as Jordan are returning to Iraq to fight. Hatred for Saddam they may well have, but love for their country is greater...

ppman

In response to your last paragraph:
And the same can be said about Iraqi's that live here in the US. There are many that are signing up to help overthrow Saddam. And to help their fellow country men. Could this be attributed to them living in a more enlightened country? They aren't being subjected to the one sided bombardment of images and ideas that the Iraqi's in the Middle East are being shown.

 

[p_p_man]

In response to your last paragraph:
And the same can be said about Iraqi's that live here in the US. There are many that are signing up to help overthrow Saddam. And to help their fellow country men. Could this be attributed to them living in a more enlightened country? They aren't being subjected to the one sided bombardment of images and ideas that the Iraqi's in the Middle East are being shown.

I haven't seen any news comment on that story...

Where is it?

ppman

 

[Linedrive]

But do you honestly think the US would let the Iraqi's elect anyone they wanted? Even if it was someone that we didn't approve of? I'm sure that the US will have a significant hand in installing a new leader, just as the British did with King Faisal I.

And I'm just curious Gunner, but what do you think is the solution to the situation in North Korea? Do you think we should follow the same formula as we did with Iraq for them?

I don't think the US would allow them to elect Bin Laden. There needs to be benifits involved, a cooperation established in order for the new government to not go down the same path Hussein did. Whether it is aid packages, construction assistance, or whatever, we need to ensure the situation is benificial for the Iraqi's to not pursue terrorism or weapons of mass destruction. I am fully aware of how difficult of a task this might be, but I am also optimistic it can be accomplished.

I agree with the Bush Administration that the North Korea issue is a regional issue. Leading politicians in Japan are already calling for the Japanese military to re-arm because of North Korean threats. China, Russia and South Korea all have stakes in the region. My hopes is the situation can be defused diplomatically. I'm not anticipating a US attack against North Korea anytime in the near future, but I wouldn't rule it out either if the situation becomes too dangerous.

 

[Alvin Brickrock]

I haven't seen any news comment on that story...

Where is it?

ppman

Every US television satation shows Iraqis living in the US that want to go back to Iraq when the dust has settled and form the new government. It seems, and with justification IMO, that Iraqis living in Iraq resent this.

 

[p_p_man]

Every US television satation shows Iraqis living in the US that want to go back to Iraq when the dust has settled and form the new government. It seems, and with justification IMO, that Iraqis living in Iraq resent this.

I think that for past betrayals and the current invasion much of Iraq will be a no-go area for the bulk of Americans once this war is over.

The US is quite a hated country out there so I wouldn't bank on being able to do any rebuilding without watching your backs all the time...

ppman

 

[8ball]

I haven't seen any news comment on that story...

Where is it?

ppman

I only took the time to c/p this one for you, pp.


http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/sunnews/news/local/5461399.htm