Weak Characters

[gordo12]

It seems that every book I get these days has the major character as a weak, insipid, barely able to keep himself from being killed. These are action novels where you want a star, not a schlock!

One had the main character passing out or getting knocked out every time there was action. Somebody kept having to save him!

It seems to me the trend to try and show your major characters as flawed humans has gone too far!

Anyone else noticing this?

 

[lustychimera]

Yeah, a lot of my enjoyment from reading comes from the wish fulfilment, so weak main characters aren't really to my taste. Love Lee Child and Clive Cussler. Read a ton of Louie L'Amours as a kid.

But when I'm writing, I'm just the opposite. My characters are deeply flawed and barely likeable. I got different tastes as a writer and a reader, even though most of my stories fall into the pulp fiction/dime novel category.

Also sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS is a huge trend right now. I guess it's inherently clever to take a trope and then just do the opposite of it?

What kind of stories are you reading?

 

[EmilyMiller]

It seems that every book I get these days has the major character as a weak, insipid, barely able to keep himself from being killed. These are action novels where you want a star, not a schlock!

One had the main character passing out or getting knocked out every time there was action. Somebody kept having to save him!

It seems to me the trend to try and show your major characters as flawed humans has gone too far!

Anyone else noticing this?

The FMC in Caputpedes was really weak, unless you were a Supreme Court Justice, or a Gorilla (or both)

Em

 

[ElectricBlue]

Read different books?

 

[Euphony]

Also sUbVeRtInG eXpEcTaTiOnS is a huge trend right now.

Nailed it.

John Waynes got overdone.
So too the anti-heroes.
Now we are pushing deeper into the extremes.

I don't need conventional "grit" in my protags but they need to be clever, capable, crafty in some measure.

Problem solvers, done well, can play just as well as brutes or genetically or logically gifted protags.

The every(wo)man hero works so long as they overcome their "every" nature in a plausible manner.

Adds a layer of relatability too.

 

[gordo12]

Read different books?

I knew somebody would say that.

We're talking across several genres!

 

[KeithD]

Anyone else noticing this?

Nope, not in my reading.

 

[SimonDoom]

Can you give examples? I can't say this describes my reading experience, so I'm curious what you are reading.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I knew somebody would say that.

We're talking across several genres!

Several different books then?

 

[gordo12]

I knew I should have kept a list.

It's been a gradual awareness, and you'd have to read the entire book to see the character develop. I never saved anything.
I get around 10 books a month via KU so it would be difficult to point anything out.

 

[ronde]

It seems that every book I get these days has the major character as a weak, insipid, barely able to keep himself from being killed. These are action novels where you want a star, not a schlock!

One had the main character passing out or getting knocked out every time there was action. Somebody kept having to save him!

It seems to me the trend to try and show your major characters as flawed humans has gone too far!

Anyone else noticing this?

It depends upon the genre. Try "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight", by Jimmy Breslin. It's been a while, but as I remember it's a humorous recounting of the bumbling attempts of a group of Mafia members who you'd normally think of as very masculine.

I think a large part of what you're seeing though, is an attempt to fit the male main character into the current ideal of a "Man". While that assessment will probably generate a lot of negative replies, if you listen to the loudest voices, men aren't supposed to be of the James Bond, John Wayne, Clint Eastwood variety anymore. Times change and as they do, it is inevitable that the personalities of the main characters in at least some novels will change as well.

 

[AchtungNight]

As has been said, weakness depends on characters. I personally enjoy realism. People change. They get older, get married, settle down, get divorced for various reasons, have children maybe, on occasion develop serious health conditions, and eventually they all must die. Mutatis Mutandis, to quote a favorite Greek expression. Change comes. You can't stop it. At least we still all have friends, right?

 

[SimonDoom]

I can't say I've noticed this trend in books I've read.

It IS true, I think, that protagonists in entertainment are somewhat more likely to be flawed than in the past. Modern audiences seem to like heroes that have warts and flaws. The shift from John Wayne to Clint Eastwood as western hero archetype was a big one, but I wouldn't call Eastwood's characters weak, just flawed and dark compared to most of Wayne's characters (although to be fair, Wayne played some dark characters too, as in Red River and The Searchers). It's a big jump from Superman to Deadpool.

I noticed when my kids were growing up and I sometimes watched the television shows that they watched that the roles of parents in TV shows had completely changed. When I grew up parents, even in light-hearted comedies like The Brady Bunch, were treated as generally authoritative and wise, whereas as more recent TV shows parents, especially fathers, were treated as objects of ridicule and scorn.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

It seems that every book I get these days has the major character as a weak, insipid, barely able to keep himself from being killed. These are action novels where you want a star, not a schlock!

One had the main character passing out or getting knocked out every time there was action. Somebody kept having to save him!

It seems to me the trend to try and show your major characters as flawed humans has gone too far!

Anyone else noticing this?

What I have noticed is a push from publishers and agents for works from more "underrepresented" segments of society, with an emphasis on DEI content. Many blatantly state that they will reject queries or submissions that do not promote a "victim" or oppressed character theme.

 

[Bramblethorn]

What I have noticed is a push from publishers and agents for works from more "underrepresented" segments of society, with an emphasis on DEI content. Many blatantly state that they will reject queries or submissions that do not promote a "victim" or oppressed character theme.

Are those their actual words, or is this an interpretation?

 

[stickygirl]

Ban the books! Ban the books! It's a libtard conspiracy with publishers being threatened that 'your teddy gets it if you don't publish'. Publishers are going broke everywhere ...

except they're not. Times change, tastes change and maybe the reading generation prefers more nuanced and less 'meat and two veg' style literature? I'm still traumatised that the Brontes and Austen are overlooked but their work does require a reader that can do sentences and doesn't expect blowey up, anvil-chinned heroes leaping to the rescue.

 

[gordo12]

I'm glad Simon mentioned Clint Eastwood, one of my Western favs. Think Clint in the middle of facing a bad guy down and discovers he's out of bullets, or drops the gun, or knocks himself out banging his head on the door.
I don't mind dark if it fits into the plot, but outright incompetent or needing to be saved

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm still traumatised that the Brontes and Austen are overlooked but their work does require a reader that can do sentences and doesn't expect blowey up, anvil-chinned heroes leaping to the rescue.

I always pictured Darcy with a strong chin with a pronounced cleft.

 

[stickygirl]

I always pictured Darcy with a strong chin with a pronounced cleft.

Darling, you can imagine him with a nine inch cock if you like. Jane was not prescriptive

 

[BobbyBrandt]

Are those their actual words, or is this an interpretation?

My comment was an amalgamation of the actual words/terms used on multiple agent/publisher sites.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm glad Simon mentioned Clint Eastwood, one of my Western favs. Think Clint in the middle of facing a bad guy down and discovers he's out of bullets,

One of his most famous scenes is exactly that:

 

[gordo12]

One of his most famous scenes is exactly that:

Well yeah, but that was part of the plot! Hollywood (fake) drama and all that!

 

[stickygirl]

One of his most famous scenes is exactly that:

Except, a black guy on the street these days? What happens now? Choked if I know.

Those fairy tale Good Cop characters, through our modern eyes, look ridiculous to the point of it being insulting. We read of too many real cops shooting people in the back, breaking into the wrong house and acting like they were Clint Eastwood's character for the need to suspend belief for fiction to be more likely to incite a riot than applause.

 

[Candy_Kane54]

I always found the @ character to be rather weak, myself ...

 

[AWhoopsieDaisy]

Sorry I root for the wet rat of a man that barely makes it out alive with all of his teeth in his skull. I love pathetic rags of characters galavanting through danger with a posse of concerned bystanders chasing him around because they know he'll fucking die.

I hate traditional fight scenes. If the character isn't winning by being clever with his surroundings there's no point in me watching it personally.