Virginia

[FatDino]

As for communication, there was an email sent out to inform people of the first shooting. But when you are in class, on your way to class, studying off by yourself or driving to get to campus because you live somewhere else, you aren't going to see an email. And even if you did, how much would it change what you are doing. Do you risk missing a class on the what if? For the majority, probably not. And with a campus spread over a large area, how do you inform people? Do you want police cars rolling down the streets announcing on loud speakers there had been a shooting in a dorm? Just not practical.

As for advancing civilization, again, not likely. Civilizations change because one learns how to beat the crap out of another. The Greek civilization didn't fall because the Romans found a better way to live, they found a better way to make war. Same with the Phoenicians, the Egyptians and every other civilization you can come up with -- they fell because another civilization came over and kicked their ass and took what had been theirs. That's the way that's gone since the beginning of time

Yea well, last night, on CNN, some lady talked about sending messages to students' cell phones. Universities have all the students' numbers, or at least the ones which students have willingly given. I'm not talking about fixing the past, nor this whole incident was anyone else's fault but Cho Seung-Hui. But in the future, such improvements will help.

If a civilization is perfectly built, economically and militarily, no one can break it down. Yes, that's ideology, but it's true. An empire is defeated because it has flaws. Studying its flaws helps us build a better society, not perfect, not yet, but certainly better.

 

[Emperor_Nero]

Yea well, last night, on CNN, some lady talked about sending messages to students' cell phones. Universities have all the students' numbers, or at least the ones which students have willingly given. I'm not talking about fixing the past, nor this whole incident was anyone else's fault but Cho Seung-Hui. But in the future, such improvements will help.

If a civilization is perfectly built, economically and militarily, no one can break it down. Yes, that's ideology, but it's true. An empire is defeated because it has flaws. Studying its flaws helps us build a better society, not perfect, not yet, but certainly better.

Another television news "expert" talking out of her ass I'm sure. I mean, even if the university had everyone's cell phone number (and they don't, probably not even 10 percent of them), like simultaneously sending 26,000 text messages isn't going to cause problems in the local cellular system -- possibly overloading it and preventing the cell phone emergency calls about the start of the second round of shooting. Hell, even the emails that were sent probably all went to the offical college email account for the student -- not the AOL, Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail or whatever other email account the student actually looks at on a regular basis.

I know it's not idealistic, but pragmatically, I don't really see anything that realistically could have been done to stop this or changed to prevent this. Sure, you lock down campus so no one can leave their building -- that just means instead of killing 30 people in an engineering building, he kills people unfortunate enough to be locked in the same building with him. In fact, he possibly kills more because the building is sealed, making escape that much more difficult. Sure you can tell people there "might" be a problem (and that's about all you could accurately say after the first shooting), but is that going to keep people away from their regular activities? For the majority, likely no.

I mean we can talk about all the things we could do "ideally" to make this better. Realistically though, there really isn't much of anything we could change to have stopped this tragedy or to truely prevent it from happening again in the future. No precautions, no communication and no army or police force can stop an army of one that is bent on destruction and willing to die to make it happen.

 

[FatDino]

Another television news "expert" talking out of her ass I'm sure. I mean, even if the university had everyone's cell phone number (and they don't, probably not even 10 percent of them), like simultaneously sending 26,000 text messages isn't going to cause problems in the local cellular system -- possibly overloading it and preventing the cell phone emergency calls about the start of the second round of shooting. Hell, even the emails that were sent probably all went to the offical college email account for the student -- not the AOL, Yahoo, Gmail, Hotmail or whatever other email account the student actually looks at on a regular basis.

I know it's not idealistic, but pragmatically, I don't really see anything that realistically could have been done to stop this or changed to prevent this. Sure, you lock down campus so no one can leave their building -- that just means instead of killing 30 people in an engineering building, he kills people unfortunate enough to be locked in the same building with him. In fact, he possibly kills more because the building is sealed, making escape that much more difficult. Sure you can tell people there "might" be a problem (and that's about all you could accurately say after the first shooting), but is that going to keep people away from their regular activities? For the majority, likely no.

I mean we can talk about all the things we could do "ideally" to make this better. Realistically though, there really isn't much of anything we could change to have stopped this tragedy or to truely prevent it from happening again in the future. No precautions, no communication and no army or police force can stop an army of one that is bent on destruction and willing to die to make it happen.

But it certainly beats just sitting and mourning, doesn't it? It maybe a little too much, but it's better than doing nothing.

 

[SesameStreet]

I'm sure it was the gun's fault, not the poor guy who was pulling the trigger.

Yet another argument in favor of concealed carry. Had someone in his path also had a firearm, the death count would likely have been lower. This guy outdid the body count in Killeen, Texas in 1991 at Luby's cafeteria. One of the victims had a gun in her vehicle but did not bring it into the cafeteria because doing so was illegal. She wished that she had not played by the rules that day. Her parents were among the dead. No, you cannot count on the police to save you.

I agree. This is one of the strongest arguments to have more states with laws making it legal to carry concealed weapons. If one of these teachers or students had had a gun they could possibly have killed this guy before he killed so many. At least the knowledge that some of these students may have had a weapon may have given him some second thoughts. BTW, he bought his Glock legally. If he can buy one legally and kill so many then the teachers and students should have the right to carry a weapon for self defense.

2:20 p.m. ET: Affadavit: one handgun from firearm's store roanoke va: According to an affadavit filed today, the police believe one gun was bought at a firearm's store in roanoke virginia.

http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/breaking/wb/113294

John Markell, owner of Roanoke Firearms on Cove Road, said today that three agents from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives visited his shop yesterday. One of the agents told him that the Glock 19 that Markell's shop sold Cho about five weeks ago was used in the mass shooting.

Markell said he was not in the shop when Cho bought the gun but said nothing stood out about the purchase. Cho produced a Virginia driver's license, a checkbook with a matching address and an immigration card. Cho was a resident alien from South Korea.

Cho paid $571 for the gun and a box of 50 9mm bullets, Markell said.

Markell said the ATF told him the serial number was removed from the Glock, but authorities traced the weapon by a Roanoke Firearms receipt found in Cho's pocket.

Markell said he opened Roanoke Firearms in 1998.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266586,00.html

 

[Emperor_Nero]

But it certainly beats just sitting and mourning, doesn't it? It maybe a little too much, but it's better than doing nothing.

Why not just move forward instead of doing either? I don't directly know anyone involved and, while I feel bad, I am not mourning. And for those that do directly know people killed, they will mourn no matter what goes on around them.

There are plenty of pressing issues facing individual people, towns, counties, states, nations and the world as a whole. Today is an election day in the US for many localities in terms of mayors and city councils and several local referenda. Today there are many issues like Gonzalez and War Czars facing the US national government and Iraq continues to loom over the entire world and has people dying there every day. Where is the coverage of these things on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN and the like? Buried behind people looking back and saying that people should have done this or done that at Virginia Tech and how sad this all is.

Yes it's sad. Yes I feel bad for all those involved. But yes, I want to move forward and deal with issues that changes might realistically have some pragmatic effect.

 

[FatDino]

Why not just move forward instead of doing either? I don't directly know anyone involved and, while I feel bad, I am not mourning. And for those that do directly know people killed, they will mourn no matter what goes on around them.

There are plenty of pressing issues facing individual people, towns, counties, states, nations and the world as a whole. Today is an election day in the US for many localities in terms of mayors and city councils and several local referenda. Today there are many issues like Gonzalez and War Czars facing the US national government and Iraq continues to loom over the entire world and has people dying there every day. Where is the coverage of these things on ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CNN and the like? Buried behind people looking back and saying that people should have done this or done that at Virginia Tech and how sad this all is.

Yes it's sad. Yes I feel bad for all those involved. But yes, I want to move forward and deal with issues that changes might realistically have some pragmatic effect.

We are moving forward. It's times like this that we learn from accidents and mistakes to make it safer in the future. You can't expect people to just leave this alone. Other students, not just at VT, but at all other universities need to feel safe, need to know what happened because it may save their lives if this kind of thing happens to them. The public needs to know because no parents want to send their kids to school with doubts that their sons and daughters aren't safe.

 

[rgraham666]

I agree. This is one of the strongest arguments to have more states with laws making it legal to carry concealed weapons. If one of these teachers or students had had a gun they could possibly have killed this guy before he killed so many.

Or it may have increased the body count as badly trained people pulled out their guns and let fly at other badly trained people with guns.

At least the knowledge that some of these students may have had a weapon may have given him some second thoughts.

Having been in a similar mind set as the perpetrator at one point in my life I can safely refute this. When your mind goes this strange, you don't care, not at all. Other people's lives are worth nothing and your own less than that.

 

[FatDino]

Or it may have increased the body count as badly trained people pulled out their guns and let fly at other badly trained people with guns.



Having been in a similar mind set as the perpetrator at one point in my life I can safely refute this. When your mind goes this strange, you don't care, not at all. Other people's lives are worth nothing and your own less than that.

Agree. One man pulls out his gun and two, three others pull out theirs to "stop the shooting."

If that becomes true, who will need the police anymore?

Wait, that's an idea .

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I share the desire to weigh in, but I think we should hold off for a few days on the political debates related to this.

 

[Emperor_Nero]

We are moving forward. It's times like this that we learn from accidents and mistakes to make it safer in the future. You can't expect people to just leave this alone. Other students, not just at VT, but at all other universities need to feel safe, need to know what happened because it may save their lives if this kind of thing happens to them. The public needs to know because no parents want to send their kids to school with doubts that their sons and daughters aren't safe.

Judging by television news coverage we're not ... all coming to you live from Blacksburg, VA. I understand we need to deal with this, but it is not the all-consuming, news dominating story it is being made out to be. Twice as many people died yesterday in Iraq, yet it's story No. 2 because it's old hat and it's not at our back door. Does that make it less significant? I say NO.

I am a parent, I am sending both of my children off to university this fall and this event doesn't alter how I feel about their safety at all. In fact, I maintain Virginia Tech is still a very safe campus -- they just had one bad day that was dominated by one misguided person (whom I hesitate to call bad, as I don't know all the facts about him). The same thing that can happen any day, in any town, at any place.

Do I know bad things can happen any time I or my family step outside our door (and we're probably not all that safe inside that said door either)? Yes. Do I let it alter the way I live my life and the things I do? As little as legally possible. I conceed to increased security at airports and see the need for a passport to cross borders. But even if VT was the school of choice for either of my children, I wouldn't hesitate to send them, nor would I be making a call for any great changes in plan or policy.

It's time to move on. If only the television media would listen.

 

[3113]

We are moving forward. It's times like this that we learn from accidents and mistakes to make it safer in the future. You can't expect people to just leave this alone. Other students, not just at VT, but at all other universities need to feel safe, need to know what happened because it may save their lives if this kind of thing happens to them. The public needs to know because no parents want to send their kids to school with doubts that their sons and daughters aren't safe.

I agree that we can't expect people to leave this alone. They will try (as media pundits currently are), to find a quick scapegoat reason for why it happened so that it can easily be taken care of and cured. So, for example, if he played video games, then they can blame video games, put out laws against video games, and think, "Ah, well that won't ever happen again!" or if they think his being a student from another country, there will be laws against such people being allowed to carry firearms or attent U.S. universities. And people will think, "Ah. That will never happen again!"

But Nero has an excellent point. Unless we want to change laws about mental health, where-in a student writing disturbing things in creative writing can be FORCED by mental health folk to get treatment and FORCED to take meds, or unless we find a way to keep firearms out of EVERYONE's hands, then there's no way to prevent this from happening again.

It would be wonderful to be able to assure parents that all schools are safe, safe, safe and this kind of thing will never happen again. But realistically...we can't. One disturbed individual with a gun can go on a rampage. They can plow their car into a nursery school (done!), can shoot up a high school or university (done and done again), even a peaceful and remote Amish school (done!).

I don't know anyone at Virginia Tech, but for some reason, this news has really gotten to me. It's terrible and it keeps hitting me. I will be mourning for this. But I also know that the only and best ways to "prevent" it from happening again will not be put into effect, because they involve forcing people with mental problems--or suspected mental problems to be seen by professionals and to take medicines and to be under observations and to be kept away from firearms.

If that can't be done, then there is no way to prevent this from happening again.

 

[3113]

Here's the latest on the shooter:

Gunman was both methodical and angry

BLACKSBURG, Va. -- It was 5:30 Monday morning and Karan Grewal was finishing a break after a long night of cramming for his classes at Virginia Tech. As he left the bathroom at Harper Hall, his dormitory mate, Cho Sueng-Hui, wearing boxer shorts and a T-shirt, entered for his morning ritual of applying lotion, inserting his contact lenses and taking his medication.

"He was, like, normal," Grewal, a 21-year-old accounting major, said today, describing the ordinary start to what turned out to be an extraordinary day. Grewal said he went back to sleep but, according to authorities, Cho stayed awake. In fewer than five hours, Cho was dead, having killed himself after shooting 32 others to death at two locations on the Blue Ridge Mountain campus.

"He did not seem like a guy that's capable of anything like this," Grewal said.

A day after the deadliest gun massacre in modern U.S. history, students, friends and officials were trying to understand how Cho, a 23-year-old senior who was majoring in English, came to kill. It was a hazy picture of a man, whose last note was a rant against rich kids and debauchery, but who also appeared organized enough to secure weapons and stage his rampage.

According to school officials, Cho even had time to post a deadly warning on a school online forum.

"im going to kill people at vtech today," they said he wrote.

The Chicago Tribune reported on its website that Cho left a note in his dorm that included a rambling list of grievances. The note included rants against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

Cho arrived in the United States as an 8-year-old boy from South Korea in 1992, Korean Embassy officials said. His parents, who are in seclusion refusing to talk to the media, run a dry cleaning business in Centreville, Va., according to federal investigation sources. Cho's sister is a graduate of Princeton. His only previous contact with the law was a recent speeding ticket for doing 74 mph in a 55-mph zone, federal sources said. But the officials said he once set fire to his dorm room and was taking medication for depression.

By around 7:15 a.m. Monday, Cho had left his Harper Hall dorm for West Ambler Johnston dormitory. There he went to see Emily Hilscher, described as a friend by officials. Hilscher and the resident advisor, who came to investigate, were shot to death.

As police investigated, Cho was on the move. He had a backpack containing knives and ammo magazines, sources said. He was armed with two handguns. One, a .22-caliber handgun, was bought in February at JND Pawn in Blacksburg, federal sources said. The other gun, a 9-mm Glock, was bought from a Roanoke firearms store.

After leaving the scene of the first shooting, Cho telephoned authorities with a threat, saying there was a bomb at Norris Hall, about half a mile away from Johnston. At Norris, officials said Cho barricaded the doors with chains, then began shooting people. Thirty were killed before Cho turned the gun on himself, officials said.

At Harper, Cho shared a second-floor apartment-style suite with six other students. The suite has three bedrooms for two students each. The suite is connected with one living room and a shared bathroom. Its living room has a burgundy couch and tan coffee table, and today it was littered with empty water bottles and Dr. Pepper cans.

Cho shared a bedroom with Joseph Aust, a sophomore majoring in electrical engineering. Aust said he knew barely anything about him, and the two hardly spoke. When they moved in together, Aust said that Cho told him he was a business major.

Aust said Cho was always on his computer listening to rock, pop and classical.

"He would spend a lot of time downloading music," he said.

 

[Emperor_Nero]

I share the desire to weigh in, but I think we should hold off for a few days on the political debates related to this.

May I ask why we should hold off on this debate? Because if it has anything to do with people dying, we need to cancel every Iraq string on this board -- twice as many people died there yesterday and continue to do so for everyday. Or is it because they are "over there" that they don't count for as much?
Just interested.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

May I ask why we should hold off on this debate? Because if it has anything to do with people dying, we need to cancel every Iraq string on this board -- twice as many people died there yesterday and continue to do so for everyday. Or is it because they are "over there" that they don't count for as much?
Just interested.

Shall we have a debate on debates?

It seems like the right thing to do. Lets bury them first.

 

[3113]

And here is an informed opinion on such killers (bold sections mine)--take note of how Cho fits most of the profile (likely, as we learn more, we'll probably find that he fits this profile exactly). This is important because it emphasizes that this is the profile for a killer...and it doesn't matter if he listened to classical music or Marilyn Manson, whether he played video games or read the Bible. Ridding the world of a certain kind of rock music is not going to put a stop to these killers. They have a mental disorder and an unrealistic vision of themselves and their world that leads them to do this:

Why they kill
By James Alan Fox, JAMES ALAN FOX is a professor of criminal justice at Northeastern University and the author of many books, including "The Will to Kill" (2006) and "Extreme Killing" (2005).

MASS MURDER certainly wasn't invented with the 1966 Texas Tower shootings. For as long as there has been history, there has been murder — including horrific mass murder. Certainly in the first half of the 20th century there were examples, such as the case of Howard Unruh, a mentally ill war veteran who killed 13 people in 13 minutes with a Luger pistol on the streets of Camden, N.J., in 1949.

But 1966 was a dramatic turning point. On Aug. 1, Charles Whitman, a student at the University of Texas at Austin, climbed up a 27-story tower and killed 14 people, wounding 31 others, before being shot dead by the police.

After the Whitman killings, the incidents started to climb. Mass murders (and, especially, mass shootings) became increasingly common — George Hennard in Killeen, Texas; Patrick Edward Purdy in Stockton; James Huberty in San Ysidro; Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., to name just a few — and the body counts began to grow as well. Seven of the eight largest mass shootings in modern U.S. history have occurred in the last 25 years.

The murder of at least 32 people at Virginia Tech on Monday may have been the worst, but it was only one of about 20 mass shootings that occur each year in the United States (a subset of the two dozen or so mass murders). A mass murder is defined as an event in which four or more people are killed in the same episode. Serial killings, by contrast, occur over an extended time.

What accounts for the increase? Is it possible that man (and yes, 95% of all mass murderers are men, who tend to be far more comfortable and better trained in using firearms) has simply grown more evil and bloodthirsty since 1966 than during the previous millenniums of human existence?

Of course not. But several changes have taken place that have made such incidents more common.

One, of course, is the change in the potency of weaponry. Before 1966, the best weapons available to most would-be killers were pistols, rifles, maybe a shotgun. That is no longer the case; today, semiautomatics are all too easily accessible. But there also have been societal changes that have increased the incidence of mass killing. In studying mass murderers over 25 years, my colleague, Jack Levin, and I have identified five factors that exist in virtually all cases.

First, perpetrators have a long history of frustration and failure and a diminished ability to cope with life's disappointments.

Second, they externalize blame, frequently complaining that others didn't give them a chance. Sometimes they argue that their ethnic or racial group or gender isn't getting the breaks that others are. (An example of this is Marc Lepine, who killed 14 female engineering students at the Ecole Polytechnique of the University of Montreal, apparently because he felt that women were taking too many seats at the university.)

Third, these killers generally lack emotional support from friends or family. You've read the "he always seemed to be something of a loner" quote? It has a grounding in reality.

Fourth, they generally suffer a precipitating event they view as catastrophic. This is most often some sort of major disappointment: the loss of a job or the breakup of a relationship. In massacres at colleges and universities, it's often about getting a grade the shooter feels he didn't deserve. In 1991, a graduate student at the University of Iowa killed five people because he thought his physics dissertation should have won a prestigious $1,000 award.

Fifth, they need access to a weapon powerful enough to satisfy their need for revenge.

So what has changed? For one thing, the United States has become much more dog-eat-dog, more competitive in recent years. We admire those who achieve at any cost, and it seems that we have less compassion for those who fail. (Just look at how eager we are to vote people off the island or to reject them in singing competitions.) This certainly increases frustration on the part of losers.

Then there's the eclipse of traditional community: higher rates of divorce, the decline of church-going and the fact that more people live in urban areas, where they may not even know their neighbors. If mass murderers are isolated people who lack support, these trends only exacerbate the situation.

Many mass murderers, for example, are people who have picked up roots and moved. James Huberty, who used a 9-mm semiautomatic Uzi to kill 21 people during a 77-minute massacre at a McDonald's in San Ysidro in 1984, had moved to California from Ohio after losing his job. When he lost another job in California, he had no friends or extended family to fall back on. They were all in Ohio.

These days, we know an awful lot about why these events occur. We're beginning to understand the motivations behind events that, to many people, seem senseless. But that doesn't mean we can prevent them. We're not going to build fortresses out of our college campuses, nor should we.

It should give us some degree of consolation to know that these events are exceedingly rare. But they still occur, and they are among the sad and tragic prices we pay for the kind of open, modern, democratic society we live in.

 

[Emperor_Nero]

Shall we have a debate on debates?

It seems like the right thing to do. Lets bury them first.

OK ... but following that logic, no more political debates on Iraq or any other events where people die. We need to show respect and bury ALL the dead before we comment or debate about the effects it has on society.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

OK ... but following that logic, no more political debates on Iraq or any other events where people die. We need to show respect and bury ALL the dead before we comment or debate about the effects it has on society.

That is a debate on debates, or at least a discussion, and it's a legitimate issue to raise, or at least a legitimate rhetorical point. Point taken.

 

[FatDino]

I agree that we can't expect people to leave this alone. They will try (as media pundits currently are), to find a quick scapegoat reason for why it happened so that it can easily be taken care of and cured. So, for example, if he played video games, then they can blame video games, put out laws against video games, and think, "Ah, well that won't ever happen again!" or if they think his being a student from another country, there will be laws against such people being allowed to carry firearms or attent U.S. universities. And people will think, "Ah. That will never happen again!"

But Nero has an excellent point. Unless we want to change laws about mental health, where-in a student writing disturbing things in creative writing can be FORCED by mental health folk to get treatment and FORCED to take meds, or unless we find a way to keep firearms out of EVERYONE's hands, then there's no way to prevent this from happening again.

It would be wonderful to be able to assure parents that all schools are safe, safe, safe and this kind of thing will never happen again. But realistically...we can't. One disturbed individual with a gun can go on a rampage. They can plow their car into a nursery school (done!), can shoot up a high school or university (done and done again), even a peaceful and remote Amish school (done!).

I don't know anyone at Virginia Tech, but for some reason, this news has really gotten to me. It's terrible and it keeps hitting me. I will be mourning for this. But I also know that the only and best ways to "prevent" it from happening again will not be put into effect, because they involve forcing people with mental problems--or suspected mental problems to be seen by professionals and to take medicines and to be under observations and to be kept away from firearms.

If that can't be done, then there is no way to prevent this from happening again.

I don't disagree with Nero or you on "there's nothing much we can do about this," but I at least have learned to check my emails more frequently. The media does what it's supposed to do, providing information. Yes, it's extremely tiring to watch CNN going over and over and over one video clip taken by a student's cell phone, but there is so much more of the story to investigate. Knowing why Cho did it, how he did it is very useful for criminology. Who knows if future crimes can be solved by what we obtain from this incident?

Yes, this WILL happen again, in one way or another. So why don't we try to take as much out of this as we can to "equip" ourselves with "survival skills"?

 

[jomar]

I agree that we can't expect people to leave this alone. They will try (as media pundits currently are), to find a quick scapegoat reason for why it happened so that it can easily be taken care of and cured. So, for example, if he played video games, then they can blame video games, put out laws against video games, and think, "Ah, well that won't ever happen again!" or if they think his being a student from another country, there will be laws against such people being allowed to carry firearms or attent U.S. universities. And people will think, "Ah. That will never happen again!"

But Nero has an excellent point. Unless we want to change laws about mental health, where-in a student writing disturbing things in creative writing can be FORCED by mental health folk to get treatment and FORCED to take meds, or unless we find a way to keep firearms out of EVERYONE's hands, then there's no way to prevent this from happening again.

It would be wonderful to be able to assure parents that all schools are safe, safe, safe and this kind of thing will never happen again. But realistically...we can't. One disturbed individual with a gun can go on a rampage. They can plow their car into a nursery school (done!), can shoot up a high school or university (done and done again), even a peaceful and remote Amish school (done!).

I don't know anyone at Virginia Tech, but for some reason, this news has really gotten to me. It's terrible and it keeps hitting me. I will be mourning for this. But I also know that the only and best ways to "prevent" it from happening again will not be put into effect, because they involve forcing people with mental problems--or suspected mental problems to be seen by professionals and to take medicines and to be under observations and to be kept away from firearms.

If that can't be done, then there is no way to prevent this from happening again.

Even when under psychiatric care these things happen - it did at UNC-Chapel Hill a few years ago.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Right-wing wanker of the day

Spirit of Self-Defense [John Derbyshire]

As NRO's designated chickenhawk, let me be the one to ask: Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake—one of them reportedly a .22.

At the very least, count the shots and jump him reloading or changing hands. Better yet, just jump him. Handguns aren't very accurate, even at close range. I shoot mine all the time at the range, and I still can't hit squat. I doubt this guy was any better than I am. And even if hit, a .22 needs to find something important to do real damage—your chances aren't bad.

Yes, yes, I know it's easy to say these things: but didn't the heroes of Flight 93 teach us anything? As the cliche goes—and like most cliches. It's true—none of us knows what he'd do in a dire situation like that. I hope, however, that if I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd at least take a run at the guy.

 

[rgraham666]

I have a book in my library, Panzer Commander.

In it he noted that it was always the loud and proud ones who cracked first in combat.

 

[Sherry Hawk]

Oh, god, this is just heartbreaking....

I'm watching the Dateline special, and they're talking about each of the victims individually. One of those killed was a lecturer that was in his 70's. He barricaded the door and told his students to get out, saving all of those particular students lives even though he lost his.

He was able to email his wife and tell her that he loved her, and then he died.

He was a holocaust survivor.

 

[rgraham666]

Crap.

Life just sucks sometimes, doesn't it?

 

[cumallday]

Seven months ago a kid named Kimveer Gill went on a similar killing spree at a college in Montreal. What strikes me as 3113's post explains is how the shooters are near always young men who are loners, externalize blame, have difficulty coping with failure, and what wasn't mentioned, suicidal. Cho, Kimveer, Lepine, the Columbine kids; they all ended their spree by shooting themselves.

I'd be the first to point out a lack of community as a cause behind the detachment and absence of belonging required to be so isolated and unrecognizably disturbed where cumulative sparks of frustrated anger ignite a rush of murderous hatred and the world itself is your enemy. But then every demographic would conjure up killers. There must be more to it and I think the answer lies in the suicidal end to these poor unfortunate souls.

I've never suffered from depression myself nor do I personally know anyone who has. I do know that many depressions end in suicide. If you're an angry loner, full of testosterone who externalizes blame and has a terrible time coping with failure what could be worse than the mental dissaray of a depression. Worse still, you lack the support and help a community, family and friends offer. You'd have to be crazy to kill all those people for no reason other than right some perceived, externalized wrong. I'm no psychologist and am probably wrong, but I can never get past the fact that these shootings end in suicide.

 

[Samandiriel]

Update?

Va. gunman had 2 past stalking cases
By ADAM GELLER, AP National Writer



BLACKSBURG, Va. - More than a year before the Virginia Tech massacre, Cho Seung-Hui was accused of stalking two female students and was taken to a psychiatric hospital because of fears he was suicidal, authorities said Wednesday.

The disclosure added to the rapidly growing list of warning signs that appeared well before the 23-year-old student shot 32 people to death and committed suicide Monday. Among other things, Cho's twisted, violence-filled writings and sullen, vacant-eyed demeanor had disturbed professors and students so much that he was removed from one English class and was repeatedly urged to get counseling.

In November and December 2005, two women complained to campus police that they had received calls and computer messages from Cho, but they considered the messages "annoying," not threatening, and neither pressed charges, Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.

Neither woman was among the victims in the massacre, police said.

But after the second complaint, the university obtained a temporary detention order and took Cho away for psychiatric evaluation because an acquaintance reported he might be suicidal, authorities said. Police did not identify the acquaintance.

Around the same time, one of Cho's professors informally shared some concerns about the young man's writings, but no official report was filed, Flinchum said.

The chief said he was not aware of any other contact between Cho and police after those episodes.

According to court papers, on Dec. 13, 2005, a magistrate ordered Cho to undergo an evaluation at Carilion St. Albans Hospital. The magistrate signed the order because of evidence Cho was a danger to himself or others as a result of mental illness. The next day, according to court records, a special justice approved outpatient treatment for Cho.

A medical examination conducted Dec. 14 found that Cho's "affect is flat. ... He denies suicidal ideations. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder. His insight and judgment are normal."

It is unclear how long Cho stayed at Carilion, though court papers indicate he was free to leave as of Dec. 14. Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker said Cho had been continually enrolled at Tech and never took a leave of absence.

A spokesman for Carilion St. Albans would not comment Wednesday.

After the first stalking incident, police referred Cho to the university's disciplinary system, Flinchum said.

But Ed Spencer, assistant vice president of student affairs, would not comment on any disciplinary proceedings, saying federal law protects students' medical privacy even after death. In any case, Cho remained enrolled up until his death.

"There is no blame from students," said Elizabeth Hart, a communications major and a spokeswoman for the student government. "Who would've woken up in the morning and said, 'Maybe this student who's just troubled is really going to do something this horrific?'"

She added: "There's no way to know which kids are just troubled students and who's going to develop into something greater."

Campus police on Wednesday applied for search warrants for Cho's medical records from the campus health center and an off-campus facility. "It is reasonable to believe that the medical records may provide evidence of motive, intent and designs," investigators said in court papers.

Police searched Cho's dorm room and recovered, among other items, two computers, books, notebooks, a digital camera, and a chain and combination lock, according to documents. The front doors of Norris Hall, the classroom building where most of the victims died, had been chained shut from the inside during the rampage.

Fourteen people remained hospitalized Wednesday.

Cho's roommates and professors portrayed him as a creepy, solitary figure who rarely even made eye contact with his roommates, much less speak to them.

His bizarre behavior became even less predictable in recent weeks, roommate Karan Grewal said. Grewal had pulled an all-nighter on homework the day of the shootings and saw Cho at around 5 a.m., a few hours earlier than normal.

As usual, Cho didn't look him the eye or say anything, Grewal said.

He said Cho usually worked alone on his computer and watched TV, including Friday night wrestling. He was always alone — in the dining hall, watching television, working out with weights in the gym. He rarely spoke to anyone.

"I had no idea he was capable of this," Grewal said. "We were never told his teachers had concern about him committing suicide and all these dark feelings.

"We were never told that our suitemate was depressed or suicidal."

Authorities said he left a rambling note raging against women, religion and rich kids. News reports said that Cho, a South Korean immigrant who came to the U.S. as a boy and whose parents worked at a dry cleaners, may have been taking medication for depression.

Professors and classmates were alarmed by his class writings — pages filled with twisted, violence-drenched writing.

"It was not bad poetry. It was intimidating," poet Nikki Giovanni, one of his professors, told CNN.

"I know we're talking about a youngster, but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings," she said. "There was something mean about this boy. It was the meanness — I've taught troubled youngsters and crazy people — it was the meanness that bothered me. It was a really mean streak."

Giovanni said her students were so unnerved by Cho's behavior, including taking pictures of them with his cell phone, that some stopped coming to class and she had security check on her room. She eventually had him taken out of her class, after threatening to quit if he wasn't removed.

Lucinda Roy, a co-director of creative writing at Virginia Tech, said she tutored Cho after that. She said she tried to get him into counseling in late 2005 but he always refused.

"He was so distant and so lonely," she told ABC's "Good Morning America" Wednesday. "It was almost like talking to a hole, as though he wasn't there most of the time. He wore sunglasses and his hat very low so it was hard to see his face."

Roy also said she arranged to use a code word with her assistant to call police if she ever felt threatened by Cho, but she said she never used it.