Unpublished

[PennLady]

If they dump you or hold you hostage to the over-the-edge titles, they aren't taking your interests into account. Look to jumping ship (you'll have to look at what you can do with your contract) to another publisher (look at the publisher listings at Allromanceebooks.com and Fictionwise or Bookstrand or 1Erotica; look for GM books like yours that publisher is doing; query them). And if none of that works, let me take a look at one of them to see if I can see where it might fit.

I'm in the same boat. Two authors (that I know of) are running afoul of the PayPal guidelines, and Republica Press may shut down. I've considered writing to the publisher and saying just what you did earlier, that I hope they consider all the authors who do not go against this.

I'm not sure of the exact reason for the possible shut down, though. If they are just running out of time and money, then fine. However, they put a new book up last week -- I wouldn't think they'd sign a contract with that person if a possible shutdown was on the horizon, although they may have told the author that. I was told that since one of the authors was one of their originals (as was I), they don't "feel right" about going on without him. Which while a nice sentiment, doesn't quite fly with me.

 

[alwayswantedto]

<deleted>

 

[sr71plt]

I'm in the same boat. Two authors (that I know of) are running afoul of the PayPal guidelines, and Republica Press may shut down. I've considered writing to the publisher and saying just what you did earlier, that I hope they consider all the authors who do not go against this.

I'm not sure of the exact reason for the possible shut down, though. If they are just running out of time and money, then fine. However, they put a new book up last week -- I wouldn't think they'd sign a contract with that person if a possible shutdown was on the horizon, although they may have told the author that. I was told that since one of the authors was one of their originals (as was I), they don't "feel right" about going on without him. Which while a nice sentiment, doesn't quite fly with me.

Yep, I think you should lean on them. You can agree it's a shame those books are being shut down, but you can also let the publisher know they have responsibilities to all of their authors, not just those trying to publish beyond the edge.

Again, go look at the publisher lists at distributors like ARE and Fictionwise and start shopping for alternatives--looking at publishers that aren't publishing over the edge, if your books don't go there. One of my publishers is on the tame side. None of this has meant a thing to them--or to any of my books with them. To the bulk of the e-publishers out there, this is a nonissue.

And I'll repeat that I don't believe Lovecraft68's (and those setting him off) screamy Chicken Littling that the category cuts are going to go deeper. The system isn't going to take it any deeper than whatever forces shoving it demand, and most erotica simply isn't on the violence/creepy level as where the cuts are showing--and most of what we're talking about also was banned most everywhere. It's just now being enforced.

 

[Darkniciad]

"If that's always been their policy, why are they doing this now?"

Because Paypal is an opportunistic vulture with a monopoly. There were adult-oriented accounts out there with big bucks in them again, and circumstances of regulation/complaints/chargebacks gave them the smokescreen they need.

Most publishers and distributers will cave before the deadline, but those who don't or fail to keep up the scrutiny will generate a nice pool of frozen accounts that Paypal can draw interest on, and the smokescreen will protect them from class action lawsuits while they sit on those accounts for as long as possible.

This is far from the first time they've played this game.

And while I'm at it -- lest we place all the blame on consumers -- another reason for the historically high chargeback rate on adut-oriented services comes from opportunistic, scruple-deficient websites, mail order companies, etc. back in the 90s going hog-wild with unauthorized charges.

There's a large element of scumbags in the adult industry who would have otherwise been running pyramid schemes, had this far juicier opportuity not presented itself with the explosion of the internet.

 

[sr71plt]

It didn't have to be you, it's just that you said it was and called me dense for not reading your "umpteen" posts specifically on that issue. I simply provided you with your own quote. You said you did something, and you didn't. Changing the subject doesn't change that fact. And no, I don't have any books for sale.

Just keep on mealymouthing then. And see where it gets you.

If you knew how to engage in a conversation, we wouldn't be here.

Oh, give me a fucking break. This is page five of this--two pages of it having gone on without me. If you and others weren't being so mulishly, purposely blind and full of false self-entitlement, we wouldn't be here.

 

[alwayswantedto]

<deleted>

 

[lovecraft68]

Well an update.

Just received an e-mail from Mark Coker at SW that Paypal has not only granted him an extension to comply but they are now becoming more flexible with the content that is to be removed.

Going further he said that even amongst the "big three" they are willing to make amends if the incest/rape and I suppose beastie although I don't know where it fits in is "incidental" to the plot.

Now of course they have to figure out how to determine incidental, but bottom line is Paypal is already caving. If SW got this extension hopefully excessia and others did as well.

Now why oh why could pay pal be backing off? Could it be the word censorship(whether it is or is not) could it be the internet abuzz with screaming censorship and painting pay pal as the bad guy?

I believe that it is.

I called pay pal an hour ago and spoke with a manager. calls are recorded and I voiced my distaste for their policy. I was told that their phones are going off the hook and he has been having this conversation all day. From people who were being reasonable(as believe it or not I was) to people screaming and swearing at him)

he of course had nothing to do with this, he's a peon, but he forwards all the messages onto the top and said he is well aware that they are 'taking a beating' image wise.

So this is far from over and even if Coker cannot claim a full victory (as in no censorship) he and others will come away with a lot more than what initially was put on the table.

meanwhile don;t know if anyone else is getting this, but Is sold another dozen incest books today, people are buying while it's there. I'm pissed I can;t find more to toss up there.

Coker also said there is no new deadline date yet, so pay pal obviously is rethinking this.

Isn't it a shame that people like myself tossed the word censorship around? Isn't it a shame that all of us "entitled" people kept making noise?

Too bad all those blogs labeling this as censorship keep popping up.

Isn't it a shame that people kept blasting Coker to the point he got back into negotiations?

Oh, and on another note? Even the guy at Paypal is unaware of anything coming down the pike about MC/Visa pulling the strings on this. Caught with their pants down.


In the end we may still get a less than perfect result, but the industry and more importantly people are not going down without a fight and I am damn proud to say that.

 

[lovecraft68]

I offered a valid point. You ignored the details and then flew off on your diatribe, starting with name calling and ending with misrepresenting what you said. That makes you the mealymouth. I understand that you can't let it go but if you want to threaten me, go ahead and do your trollish thing. My stories are easy to find.

No, Always the word is not mealy mouthed (although he is) it is swiftboating and just wait until he gets the latest updates and at the end of the day, this get much better than it could have been and here he was the entire time rolling over without a fight as always.

 

[PennLady]

I just read Coker's latest press release. It bears more reading, but I take issue with this sentence:

Contact your credit card company or congressperson and tell them you want financial services companies out of the business of censoring what writers and readers are free to imagine with fiction.

My problem: these companies are not telling you what you can and can't imagine, or write. They are saying that they don't want their services used in purchasing the results. Don't forget, especially with credit card companies, it's not your money -- it's theirs, you're borrowing it. So yes, they can tell you what to do with that particular money.

 

[sr71plt]

I offered a valid point. You ignored the details and then flew off on your diatribe, starting with name calling and ending with misrepresenting what you said. That makes you the mealymouth. I understand that you can't let it go but if you want to threaten me, go ahead and do your trollish thing. My stories are easy to find.

Ummm, no, you trailed off into what "umpteenth" means. That certainly is a significant something to cover on this topic.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

I just read Coker's latest press release. It bears more reading, but I take issue with this sentence:


My problem: these companies are not telling you what you can and can't imagine, or write. They are saying that they don't want their services used in purchasing the results. Don't forget, especially with credit card companies, it's not your money -- it's theirs, you're borrowing it. So yes, they can tell you what to do with that particular money.

No he's right. The contract is a two-way process. As you've said repeatedly, PayPal are perfectly entitled to decide who they do business with. The same is true of all the people who have accounts open with PayPal. They're perfectly entitled to close those accounts if they don't like PayPal's business decisions...such as trying to dictate what they can or can't buy to read. PayPal can still determine who can use their services, but they may find that the adverse PR this generates is not beneficial to their business.

Which is exactly why it's important to kick up a fuss on these things.

 

[PennLady]

No he's right. The contract is a two-way process. As you've said repeatedly, PayPal are perfectly entitled to decide who they do business with. The same is true of all the people who have accounts open with PayPal. They're perfectly entitled to close those accounts if they don't like PayPal's business decisions...such as trying to dictate what they can or can't buy to read. PayPal can still determine who can use their services, but they may find that the adverse PR this generates is not beneficial to their business.

Which is exactly why it's important to kick up a fuss on these things.

Wait, though. I agree -- PayPal can decide who to do business with. As can the credit card companies. And yes, you can close your PayPal account in protest; to me that's the most effective thing, but I don't have an account and I understand why people might not do that. I'm all for people doing that or calling them or writing them and all of that. I'm sure the adverse PR is not good for them.

They are not dictating what you can buy, only what you can use their service for. You can use another service and buy the stuff elsewhere -- maybe not the exact stuff, but similar stuff.

And with credit cards, like I said, that's not your money. It's money that you borrow so yes, limits can be put on that.

 

[Stella_Omega]

jeebus effing aitch christ-- no matter what you guys say, Paypal is NOT preventing you from selling, or buying, the porn you want.

It's just not letting you use their easy and convenient payment system.

You want to sell incest fiction? Sell for cash and checks and post office Moneyorders. Or pay the expensive premiums that the adult sites pay. If you want it bad enough, you'll figure something out-- It's the American way, right?

Or is the American way sitting and whining? Are you an American or an American't?

 

[alwayswantedto]

<deleted>

 

[sr71plt]

Well, you certainly take the Oscar for trying to point away from the topic and playing the afronted dying swan.

I didn't lie. At the worst, I was ambiguous in wording and you rushed to misinterpret because you choose to stick your head in the sand on the actual topic of the thread.

If you want to cry about that, have at it. You obviously want to live in your delusion.

By the way, point out where I said I didn't read all the posts (talking about lying.) For that matter, point out where I hopped on you for not reading all the posts. (I think we're getting the drift here of your real problem on this.) What I posted was that you and others were being dense about points made umpteen times on this thread.

 

[alwayswantedto]

What I posted was that you and others were being dense about points made umpteen times on this thread.

No, that is not what you said. I provided you the direct quote of what you actually said. It isn't a big deal. You just can't admit it. If you didn't have to be in everyone's face, this would have ended long ago, and I apologize to the OP if this has gone off topic, but not to you. I will leave it here; you obviously can't.

 

[sr71plt]

No, that is not what you said. I provided you the direct quote of what you actually said. It isn't a big deal. You just can't admit it. If you didn't have to be in everyone's face, this would have ended long ago, and I apologize to the OP if this has gone off topic, but not to you. I will leave it here; you obviously can't.

Pot/kettle time (as long as you are hijacking the thread):

Repeat:

By the way, point out where I said I didn't read all the posts (talking about lying.) For that matter, point out where I hopped on you for not reading all the posts. (I think we're getting the drift here of your real problem on this.)

 

[colddiesel]

A solution

The basic problem will be resolvable once Pay Pal get their decision making software sorted out. All they have to do is to cut a deal with the publisher to charge high cost categories a much higher rate to reflect their increased costs.

High cost (to Pay Pal) writers, like Lovecraft would end up paying a lot more because they incur these costs, and writers in low cost categories like Penn Lady would cease to subsidise his crap. In fact, if you think about it, it would pay the majority of authors to protest to PayPal and demand that the extreme categories be penalised!

It would prolly put Lovecraft out of business but so what, he and his ilk caused the increased costs for everyone else in the first place

And that 's business.

 

[mikey2much]

Its how democracy works

As an American, you have to get your views out there and see how much the general public supports what you are saying. Thats how a democracy works.

If you just accept whatever comes down the pike than you will not have any freedoms before long.

I think this whole thread is a very good example of how our country should work. We had an action that was taken by Paypal, the people affected by their actions stood up and raised hell until the general public started to bring heat on Paypal. Paypal saw that there was a price that they would have to pay to continiue their new policy and decided that that price was too high, so they backed down. But they have expressed what they want to do, and they may come back and take a series of smaller steps to get where they want to go.

At the end of the day they seem to want to get out of some sections of the porn industry, which I agree with Penn Lady, is their right. But their heavy handed tactics were the wrong way to go about it.

I think it would be foolish to think that this is over, but at least you have some time to make other arrangements.

 

[TxRad]

As an American, you have to get your views out there and see how much the general public supports what you are saying. Thats how a democracy works.

If you just accept whatever comes down the pike than you will not have any freedoms before long.

I think this whole thread is a very good example of how our country should work. We had an action that was taken by Paypal, the people affected by their actions stood up and raised hell until the general public started to bring heat on Paypal. Paypal saw that there was a price that they would have to pay to continiue their new policy and decided that that price was too high, so they backed down. But they have expressed what they want to do, and they may come back and take a series of smaller steps to get where they want to go.

At the end of the day they seem to want to get out of some sections of the porn industry, which I agree with Penn Lady, is their right. But their heavy handed tactics were the wrong way to go about it.

I think it would be foolish to think that this is over, but at least you have some time to make other arrangements.

There is no end of the day. The sections of the porn industry they wanted out of was in the original agreement. It was well defined but until their pocketbook got to stinging, it was not enforced.

The only heavy handedness was that they decided to drop the whole section they did not want to support in the first place all at once.

And no, it is not over by a long shot. Paypal will regroup and take things down one small step at a time over a period of time.

 

[colddiesel]

The only heavy handedness was that they decided to drop the whole section they did not want to support in the first place all at once.

I don't think Pay Pal was heavy handed at all. Their responsibility is to give a return to their shareholders and they owe no-one else anything. They have a responsibility to avoid loss making business, or to charge the proper (increased) price for it. And it's their choice.

 

[mikey2much]

I disagree

I don't think Pay Pal was heavy handed at all. Their responsibility is to give a return to their shareholders and they owe no-one else anything. They have a responsibility to avoid loss making business, or to charge the proper (increased) price for it. And it's their choice.

I think they owe something to their customers as well as their investors. Paypal should have said that at the end of six months they were going to stop their support of the sales of certain books.

Nobody would have had a right to bitch about that.

 

[TxRad]

I think they owe something to their customers as well as their investors. Paypal should have said that at the end of six months they were going to stop their support of the sales of certain books.

Nobody would have had a right to bitch about that.

(Repeat) The sections of the porn industry they wanted out of was in the original agreement everyone signed when they joined . It was well defined but until their pocketbook got to stinging, it was not enforced.

They own no one nothing. What is your problem understanding this?

 

[mikey2much]

hey tex, what the fuck

I don't think that they had the right to ignore their own rules until it became a problem and then yank the rug out from under the authors that had been doing business with them for years.

I guess that you feel like some others here that if you have enough cash you are always correct. I think that is the kind of thinking that will kill freedom for everybody giving enough time.

I don't have a problem understanding your point of view. I have a problem understanding how a man as smart as you seem to be, would have such a narrow point of view to start with.

It scares the hell out of me to see how many people on a porn site have such a kindly view of censorship.

Yeah I know that Stella and pilot and some others will start to scream that this is not censorship but business. The end result is the same, no matter what you call it.

Someone earlier in this thread said we were beating a dead horse. I think they were right and I am going to drop out of this pointless discussion. At this point in time it has no effect on me anyway. I just hate to see people get fucked over, but if you guys don't mind, I don't mind.

All you guys have a nice day, I hope everything works out for you.

 

[lovecraft68]

(Repeat) The sections of the porn industry they wanted out of was in the original agreement everyone signed when they joined . It was well defined but until their pocketbook got to stinging, it was not enforced.

They own no one nothing. What is your problem understanding this?

It's the same problem. that I would have if for example Amazon stopped selling erotica all together.

In their polices(veeeeery loose polices) they say no graphic sexual descriptions.

By enforcement they could take every erotic e-book/book off of their site. There may come a day they may do so and that policy covers their ass. And if it was enforced from day one there can be no issue.

But after years of selling erotica, currently carrying thousands upon thousands of erotic books and making millions off of them for them to suddenly say "okay we are going to enforce this' is a bit weak.

If the company you worked for always gave you a certain benefit and did it for years then suddenly took it away and pointed to something in their manual that said they did not have t do it, but have been doing it all along, you don't feel slighted?

And let me explain where I see the difference is business vs censorship. I owned a comic store for awhile so let's say I decided I was not going to carry Batman comics. My business my choice. You're a batman fan and you're like WTF?

Bottom line you get your ass down to the other comic store and buy it. If you want a certain item you go to a business that carries it.

What paypal/mc/visa are doing is making it so that item is no longer available anywhere. They are taking away your right to buy it anywhere and my or your right to sell it anywhere. They are trying to dictate what can and cannot be sold, period. That is censorship.

What I don't understand here, is that business or censorship, they are threatening to take away something supposedly very important to all of us here as authors/readers of erotica, but more importantly set precedence for further "bannings" yet I see more boot licking in their favor than opposition.

And guess what? From the turn of events last night it seems there are more people who do believe its censorship and are passionate enough to fight it. Paypal went from holding all the cards to calling SW and backing off.


My wife has her damn minister contacting his credit card company and the RI representatives asking them how financial institutions are now dictating what we are allowed to buy and read, and I'm sure he don't give a rats ass about incest fantasies or BDSM.

What he cares about is freedom. I have everyone I know in on this, signing petitions writing representatives, calling pay pal calling their credit card companies, blogging, tweeting, bitching and moaning. I am sure I am not alone and end of the day it may or may not make a difference, but when the smoke clears I'll look in the mirror and say, "I did what I could"

And let me tell you what I am sick to death of here. I am sick of you conformist ass lickers, mocking me.

I said it before, I have no financial risk here. The wife and I do fine between our jobs, my e-bay store and her business. I'm not concerned for my financial well being.

But many do count on this income, there are some doing fairly well and it's putting food on their table and clothes on their kids backs. Those are the people that I see being hurt here. Being run over by corporate pieces of shit who want to run this country and take away our rights.

It's pretty fucking pathetic, when a Satanist takes a stand for others and you weak willed sacks of garbage stand around like its a joke, and mock those who are willing to do something for some one other than themselves. Then again my beliefs are based on my own personal moral code and no one will take anything from me without a fight.

what are you and that simpering prick Pilot doing? Toadying that's what.

And again, last night showed this is not the hopeless battle you seem to want it to be. No thanks to the corporate ass kissing group of lemmings that we got going on over here that's for sure.

If you people want to cow tow and suck ass, or at the least be indifferent to what goes on fine. That's your right to cower behind others and let them fight your fight.

But do the people who are campaigning a favor, and go hide in your holes, because it certainly does not help erotica's cause to have an erotica forum full of spineless conformists that say "Oh bother, I guess they'll do what they want, sigh."

Bottom line, you don't want to put your hands up, stay out of the fight.