Underage incest fantasys

[ms.read]

Are you kidding me?



Child porn is illegal because making it involves exploiting an ACTUAL child. Definitely someone's son or daughter, wouldn't you say? No, having photographs or digital images depicting a real scene between a child and adult or children in a nude or partially nude, or commiting obscene sexual acts is illegal. Writing a fantasy about a fictional child is not. As long as the "fictionalized fantasy" doesn't become graphic and therefore appealling to a more secluded "prurient"audience. Give it the Miller test.

But you wouldn't ban that?? I would ban niether of the above. I just think that they should stay out of the hands of children until they understand what sex is ( over eighteen.)Written FICTION about underage incest with FICTIONAL adolescents... THAT you object to? No just trying to wrap my head around the idea of child sex in general... not my cup of tea.

*scratching head* me too honey, me too.

my comments are in bold.

 

[Stella_Omega]

my comments are in bold.

I'd like to point out, that when people say; "view child porn" they generally mean images. "Read child porn' might have been what you meant?

Your hard-and-fast age of 18 is pretty debatable. I knew what sex was, at fifteen. Porn worked very well for me from then on-- doing what it was supposed to do.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Oh, did she mean literature, not images, when she said "child porn?"

 

[ms.read]

child porn is child porn whether it comes in the written or visual form. i would ban niether. i put in the over eighteen comment, because by that point you should have engough mental maturity to be able to handle porn and sex.

 

[Stella_Omega]

child porn is child porn whether it comes in the written or visual form.

Uhh... no.

Written erotica needs only a pen and paper. Photos and film-- a real child has to be available to make the stuff.

That's (originally) the reason child pornography was outlawed in the first place.

 

[ms.read]

Uhh... no.

Written erotica needs only a pen and paper. Photos and film-- a real child has to be available to make the stuff.

That's (originally) the reason child pornography was outlawed in the first place.

hentai anyone? you don't need real kids for that.

 

[elsol]

This is addressed to Dr. M, Amicus, and Box.

I love free speech. Yes, a person should be able to say anything or write anything they want.

This is addressing the fantasy of minors having sex.

Kids are not sexy. They are learning the boundaries of their sexuality.

Why would anyone want to write a fantasy about kids and adults doing sexual acts with eachother?

What kind of audience is the author looking for that would enjoy that kind of story?

anyone feel free to reply.

*sigh*

At thirteen... I discovered sex and the object of my lust was an adult female; yes, I wanted to fuck her! Badly! Desperately! Those 15 minutes on the bus were the most sexually frustrating, painful, alive moments in my life. That woman created in my sexual identity the mold for the type of woman I find viscerally attractive.

At fourteen... I wanted to have sex and yes, I wanted it with adult females and slightly older females than myself. If it had boobs and hips, I wanted her. I especially wanted my step-aunts; 21 and 25... and my god, THEY WERE FUCKING HOT! HOT! HOT!

At fifteen... I REALLY, REALLY wanted sex... with any female, but again the adult females were the most attractive. (The next year will explain probably why.)

At sixteen... I was in college; a part of me believes only another male can understand the utter frustration of living in a dorm, with females, and being this particular age.

At seventeen... more of the same.

At eighteen-1 day... still more of the same.

----

I write about sex... and you have the audacity to suggest that I ignore the forces that shaped my sexual identity, which shaped my personality, which to this day affect how I look at women, how I think of women, and which women I find desirable.

You want to silence the exploration of who and what I am.

You belong in the same category as people who ask that I ignore being raised by single mother, being catholic, the years I spent in the military, reading Ayn Rand way too young, LOVING Starship Troopers to a mental disease state... in my writing.

--> No.

Laurel and Manu have the right to tell me I can't post my stories here.

You don't have any rights in this area and I only acknowledge your words out of courtesy.

 

[ms.read]

*sigh*

At thirteen... I discovered sex and the object of my lust was an adult female; yes, I wanted to fuck her! Badly! Desperately! Those 15 minutes on the bus were the most sexually frustrating, painful, alive moments in my life. That woman created in my sexual identity the mold for the type of woman I find viscerally attractive.

At fourteen... I wanted to have sex and yes, I wanted it with adult females and slightly older females than myself. If it had boobs and hips, I wanted her. I especially wanted my step-aunts; 21 and 25... and my god, THEY WERE FUCKING HOT! HOT! HOT!

At fifteen... I REALLY, REALLY wanted sex... with any female, but again the adult females were the most attractive. (The next year will explain probably why.)

At sixteen... I was in college; a part of me believes only another male can understand the utter frustration of living in a dorm, with females, and being this particular age.

At seventeen... more of the same.

At eighteen-1 day... still more of the same.

----

I write about sex... and you have the audacity to suggest that I ignore the forces that shaped my sexual identity, which shaped my personality, which to this day affect how I look at women, how I think of women, and which women I find desirable.

You want to silence the exploration of who and what I am.

You belong in the same category as people who ask that I ignore being raised by single mother, being catholic, the years I spent in the military, reading Ayn Rand way too young, LOVING Starship Troopers to a mental disease state... in my writing.

--> No.

Laurel and Manu have the right to tell me I can't post my stories here.

You don't have any rights in this area and I only acknowledge your words out of courtesy.

I completely agree with laurel and Manu that they shouldn't be posted here if they don't want it to be its thier site. Not mine. I wouldn't want it on mine either. I still think you should be able to write read and enjoy it yourself, and you quoted me on it in the post.

I wouldn't ban anyone over the legal age view that kind of porn. I just would not choose to view it myself.

 

[amicus]

Hear, hear! El Sol, A man after my own heart!

It was a new red haired english teacher in about 8th grade, I think, even walking to her classroom before class, I had to carry a book in front of myself, then all the way through class and after...sighs...

Amicus...

 

[Boxlicker101]

as to your vignette,

boxSexual activity between an adult and a very young child doesn't have to be traumatic, and can actually be pleasurable for both. Here is the kind of thing I mean, although I don't know how common this might be.

A loving father says to his six year old daughter: "Princess, I've got a real fun game I want to play with you."

And the loving daughter responds: "Okay, Daddy."

And the game turns out to be mutual masturbation. He cums all over her soft little hands and he gently rubs her slit until she gets a nice, warm feeling, and they both enjoy it. She enjoys doing something nice with her daddy and for him, and also the nice feeling he gave her. He gets his rocks off.

She has suffered no trauma of any kind,
===
[another posting]
At the same time, it would actually be enjoyable to the girl, at least at the time, and if he never did it again, it would probably never bother her.
===

P: that's creepy stuff, box. it's postable, of course, at some porn fantasy sites.

the REALY creepy thing is that you seem to think you're talking fact., or addressing the issue of trauma for a "very young child."

you seem to think that STATING "she suffered no trauma" makes it so.

here is a parallel to your fantasy method. to prove GANG RAPE CAN BE without trauma.

PURE applies BOX'S method to gang rape:

Forced sexual activity, rape, between gang and a young woman doesn't have to be traumatic, and can actually be pleasurable for both. Here is the kind of thing I mean, although I don't know how common this might be.

A horny gang takes the young woman to somewhere private and says to her: "Honey, we've got a real fun game we want to play with you."

And the young woman responds: "Okay, guys."

And the game turns out to be a series of penetrations. They rub her and get her pussy dripping and hot. They cum all into her soft little pussy and they slip into her butt, that they've lubricated, until she gets a nice, warm feeling, and they all enjoy it. She enjoys doing something nice with the guys, and also the nice feeling they gave her. They get their rocks off.

She has suffered no trauma of any kind.

QED.

I have never written any porn involving very young children, although I have written about adult women pretending to be young girls. What you call my "vignette" was more of a hypothetical clinical description of a father molesting his young daughter with no trauma occurring, unless the events became known.

I'm puzzled about your example. You call it a gang rape, but you portray the woman as being a willing participant. If this is just a gang shag involving strictly willing participants, such as I sometimes write about, it is not rape. If the gang has abducted her, and she knows that they will kill her unless she is acquiescent, that is rape, with considerable trauma, at least psychological. And this is so whether she climaxes or not. In fact, if she has an orgasm, it might be even worse, because of guilt feelings she might have.

 

[ms.read]

i do believe there are fantasies such as those, only the authors changed the age to be the magical eighteen. written here on lit.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I confess I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if I take your post out of context.

Personally, I write two kinds of fiction (thought they often overlap). In one, I attempt to explore truths. In the other, I explore my erotic fantasies.

As I've just been blathering about endlessly in another thread, whether I'm writing erotic fantasy or exploring truths, I'm often writing about non-consent or rape. It's a vast, murky, psychologically complex zone for me, where feelings of rage over the reality of sexual violence mingle uncomfortably with my life-long response of being aroused by rape fantasies.

When I finally starting turning these fantasies into fiction, I agonized some over the morality of putting my stories into the public forum. I still feel squeamish at times at the thought that someone somewhere might read something I've written and come away from it thinking somewhere out there is an eighteen year-old girl who'd really profit from being abducted and forced to act out the erotic scenarios she'd penned.

I've dealt with some of that guilt by writing more stories in which men who perpetrate sexual violence get repaid in kind, with interest.

But I've also reasoned that the fantasy, itself, is a kind of truth. I'd never wish for an actual assault, but the fantasy is a big part of my sex life. Writing about it is an important outlet, and I know from feedback I get that reading about it is equally so for others.

I've seen academic studies that claim porn incites men to sexual violence, and I've seen academic studies that claim porn alleviates the drive to commit sexual violence. I don't know which is right, or if both are right, depending on other variables. Ultimately, even though I think the media we consume shapes how we see the world, I find it hard to believe that anyone's switch is going to be suddenly flipped because they read a story which portrayed a woman enjoying being raped, or a child being molested.

I'm far more inclined to believe that being able to write and read stories that explore taboo fantasies provides a safe outlet for desires that could only be acted on illegally and at great harm to another person.

ETA: Your point, Dr. M., about being a father and writing father-daughter incest, is a powerful one. I've often thought that I write my con-con stuff from a relatively safe place, in that I'm a woman writing (usually) about women being coerced. I know I'd be far more uncomfortable with these fantasies if I were a man getting turned on by the idea of abducting women and doing all manner of vile things to them. Incest is a safe zone for me, as well, since I grew up without a father or any male family members, and I have no children to encroach on such fantasies uncomfortably. If I were writing from the place of someone doing the raping/molesting, it would be far, far scarier.

I've gone through the same moral struggle, Varian. Much of my stuff is BDSM or non-con, and I've done some outright happy rape. I'm not so worried that my own stuff will specifically inspire someone to commit some act but I worry about contributing to an atmosphere in which sexual violence is more acceptable by its mere ubiquity in the way that violence has become more acceptable in the culture. In my mind there's no question that our society is more comfortable with violence because we've learned to accept it in the media. I'm not in favor of censorship, but this is one of the ways we pay for a free society, with a kind of race-for-the-bottom mentality in the media.

But we're dealing with XXX material here, which means we expect our readers to be capable of some basic reality-testing. The danger's not in the occasional story that depicts a child enjoying sex with a parent. No doubt there are such cases, no matter how rare they might be, and let there be stories about them, what the hell? The danger doesn't come from those occasional stories. The danger comes from letting this kind of thing become a cliche in the hands of careless or wishful writers who begin to flood the market with these kinds of stories, and go from a cliche to a myth that people start accepting as a received truth and start acting upon as something that everyone knows is true, as in "Everyone knows that ten year-old girls are just looking to get fucked."

And to prevent that from happening, what you need are forums like this, where people stand up and say that this is bullshit and this is not the truth and say it in no uncertain terms.

In our zeal to protect free speech we sometimes lose sight of the fact that not all speech is created equal, that some speech is true and some is false and some is worth a hell of a lot more than other, and that the only way we preserve the good against the bad is by drawing a line and defending it. It's not a hip thing to do in this age of cultural relativism but it's all that separates us from chaos.

 

[amicus]

Mab....

In our zeal to protect free speech we sometimes lose sight of the fact that not all speech is created equal, that some speech is true and some is false and some is worth a hell of a lot more than other, and that the only way we preserve the good against the bad is by drawing a line and defending it. It's not a hip thing to do in this age of cultural relativism but it's all that separates us from chaos.

~~~

Not picking a fight with you personally, but the underlying thought in that paragraph.

So many intellectuals, on this forum and elsewhere, express that same thesis, that they are capable of enjoying the full fruit of freedom, but that the common man cannot be trusted with it, should be protected from it.

That expresses the egalitarian relativism and non absolute thinking that has arisen in intellectual circles since the emergence of the United States, an entirely new political system in the world and with the advent of the industrial revolution which changed human life forever from pastoral to modern.

As long as individual rights and liberties are acknowledged and protected, there is no need for any limitation on the right of individuals to freely express their thoughts.

Europeans especially, just cannot get that concept through their heads and learn to place trust in the innate, natural goodness of man.

Amicus...

 

[Stella_Omega]

How about we just agree to keep it out of the hands of the leeches and parasites.

 

[3113]

Nor should we censor it for the sake of any reader or outcome.

Nor should we pussy out from taking responsibility if we don't censor it for the sake of any reader or outcome. But writers do. If you're going to put out a movie glorifying the KKK, and it motivates people to swell the ranks of that organization to the largest they've ever been, and lynchings hit a record high, then you'd better be willing to take some responsibility for that. Either stand behind what you write or don't write it, whatever you choose to write.

And like Esol pointed out, don't bullshit yourself about why you're writing it, either. If you're writing it to get yourself off, be willing to say as much as you write it. Don't try to lie to yourself and others about how you're doing any little girl a favor by teaching daddy how to induct her into the mysteries of sex.

Speaking of which, you mentioned earlier about infantilizing our teens and I agree that we do keep adolescents in a protected and childish state for far too long. And that this is not a good idea and causes a lot of confusion and trouble. That said, there is a big difference between:

1) Inducting girls into sex at age 12 because they're probably going to die at age 40 and they need to start making babies--which is the primary reason primitive tribes and civilizations made sure girls were having sex at that age, and our civilization where girls are likely going to live till 80 and can wait on sex if they need to.

2) Teaching girls or boys about sex with some older, trained teacher they're only going to have sex with once, and teaching girls/boys about sex with someone in power over them that they can't refuse or say, "I'm not ready, I don't want to..." to...like a father.

It would be very nice if we were a more honest and open civilization where all sex workers were legalized, certified medically clean, and teens of say, age fourteen or older could go, when ready, to nice, clean places where such people worked and pick the person they wanted to lose their virginity to and maybe get some sexual education. We're not that honest, open or enlightened and that's sad.

But let's not mix that up with dads or teachers or any older relative or person in power and regular contact with a teen who has sex with them and then says, "They wanted it" or "they needed it." As Esol pointed out, at that point the person is playing psychological Russian roulette and they're not doing it for the sake of the teen, are they? Just because you're in a position to teach a teen about sex doesn't mean that you should or that it will be a good thing if you do. Or, for that matter, that they really want to have sex with you; it's all too easy for a teen, with no job or home or money of their own, to feel forced or trapped into it.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

you'd better be willing to take some responsibility for that. Either stand behind what you write or don't write it, whatever you choose to write.

Will do.

Don't try to lie to yourself and others about how you're doing any little girl a favor by teaching daddy how to induct her into the mysteries of sex.

Right.

1) Inducting girls into sex at age 12 because they're probably going to die at age 40 and they need to start making babies--which is the primary reason primitive tribes and civilizations made sure girls were having sex at that age, and our civilization where girls are likely going to live till 80 and can wait on sex if they need to.

And there are STILL no rites of passage in our culture. Sad.

Teaching girls or boys about sex with some older, trained teacher they're only going to have sex with once, and teaching girls/boys about sex with someone in power over them that they can't refuse or say, "I'm not ready, I don't want to..." to...like a father.

Correct. Big difference.

It would be very nice if we were a more honest and open civilization where all sex workers were legalized, certified medically clean, and teens of say, age fourteen or older could go, when ready, to nice, clean places where such people worked and pick the person they wanted to lose their virginity to and maybe get some sexual education. We're not that honest, open or enlightened and that's sad.

Agreed.

But let's not mix that up with dads or teachers or any older relative or person in power and regular contact with a teen who has sex with them and then says, "They wanted it" or "they needed it."

Alrighty.

 

[3113]

The danger's not in the occasional story that depicts a child enjoying sex with a parent....The danger comes from letting this kind of thing become a cliche in the hands of careless or wishful writers who begin to flood the market with these kinds of stories, and go from a cliche to a myth that people start accepting as a received truth and start acting upon as something that everyone knows is true, as in "Everyone knows that ten year-old girls are just looking to get fucked."

And to prevent that from happening, what you need are forums like this, where people stand up and say that this is bullshit and this is not the truth and say it in no uncertain terms.

http://bestsmileys.com/tropheys/2.gif

You get a trophy for that one, Dr. M. One of your best posts ever. Bravo.

 

[cantdog]

i do believe there are fantasies such as those, only the authors changed the age to be the magical eighteen. written here on lit.

You may well believe in the tooth fairy, as well.

Beliefs are pretty easy. Defending them is more of a problem.

 

[barry_nine]

I suppose I have my own perspective on writing about underage incest fantasies. I was molested by an older male cousin when I was still in single digits. Now, some decades later, I have to believe that episode in my life changed me. Did it change me for the better? Who knows? Yet, regardless of how I handled it, it still altered my perception of myself and my sexuality.

I personally do not think I am any happier as an adult because of the experience; however, I have not abused anyone, either. All too often the abused become the abusers, and I am grateful that I did not go that route.

I often wonder why I never did abuse someone seeing as that seems to be the trend, or so the mass media would have us believe. I know that I have consciously steered clear of situation where I might be so tempted, even though I have never really contemplated such an act. Perhaps, it is merely because, as an adult, I grew to be much larger than the average male. Maybe by becoming physically imposing, I avoided the need to impose my will on someone defenseless. Again, who knows?

Now, as far as the stories posted here, I think that requiring the characters to be adults does absolutely no harm. The reader, if so inclined, can always mentally substitute any age for 18. I am certain many do. The closer I get to fifty years of age, I find myself feeling like a perv when I ogle a college girl, so 18 works for me.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Barry_nine, thank you

i do believe there are fantasies such as those, only the authors changed the age to be the magical eighteen. written here on lit.

Absolutely. I've had to change the wording in one of my stories, to make it fit Lit's criteria.

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[Boxlicker101]

The three incest stories I have here are more of a BDSM flavor. Two are uncle/niece and the other is daddy/daughter. Actually, the daddy/daughter isn't BDSM, come to think of it.

To write them, I had to envision this older male friend of mine - ahem - and use him as the focal point. I don't have an uncle I lust over, and my dad is just my daddy. Not sexual at all.

But the female characters in those stories is already grown up, already sexually experienced, and came to the pairings with existing passion of her own.

Anyway. The "incest" reader crowd isn't that thrilled with the daddy/daughter one, though. No forced sex. No exploitation of innocence.

I actually received feedback of that ilk.

I have ten incest stories, and none of them are even close to being BDSM. One of them might have been classified as NC/R because it is about a man extorting sex from his stepdaughter on her 18th birthday, but she has a great time, and they end up sleeping together all the time. The sequel to that one, I tried to classify as Anal, but I didn't get my way.

I have four first person stories about my cute nieces, who are the sexual aggressors, although rather innocent, and one mother/son. The latter has not been very well received, nor have the three father/daughter ones. In the first of that group, I portrayed them as pretending she was about eight years old, although I made it clear she is a twenty year old college student. I got flamed a couple times by PC's on that one, apparently by people who didn't realize it was role-playing, although it was incest. Apparently this type of youthful role-playing has now been banned. I wonder if it was because of complaints about my story. In the other two stories, there was no role-playing.

 

[ms.read]

Just strolling through reading all the posts. I noticed that some of you even admitted it....

:caning: <baad authors very bad...

 

[Guest]

. . . . .

 

[ms.read]

ahh its been a long day. I'm not going to repeat myself.. but i will try to give an explanation on my stance on the title of the thread.

underage incest fantasies.

Anyone who plans on writing a seduction of a child... I don't want to read it... I guess there has to be a line drawn here.

There is a grey area around the legal age of consent. Writing about a character around the age of consent is alright with me. Playing "baby games" or doing sexual acts with a person, say under the age of fourteen. Yeah thats borderline gross. much younger than that is waaaaaaaay gross.

As for people having memories of lusting after people at such a young age, I bet 99.6 people on this forum have those kind of memories. And yes, those stories would be read and enjoyed by the majority of the people here.

I guess what I am trying to say is... I don't want to hear about, see, or read about anything having to do with a parent, gaurdian, family member who is "abusing" thier kid from the parent or authority figure's point of view unless that offspring is over the age of eighteen.