Underage incest fantasys

[Pure]

the point about laws stating marriage prohibitions based on incest is that these are related to laws prescribing criminal penalties for incest (between consenting adults).

i believe that these laws in turn are related to laws about underage incest.

all of these are related to 'taboo,' and in the adult cases, esp. where no blood relationship, one can see pure taboo, i.e. a kind of irrational thinking.

further in reading forbidden degrees, it's clear that the drafters went on and on [more and more extended] based on some initial feelings about ordinary cases, say, of father-daughter.

-----

i hold that this taboo is why there has yet to be mentioned, here, any realistic treatments of incest in thousands of lit stories. it is stereotyped or archetypalized. (the only exception i know of is 'acidic tiger', iirc)

 

[Stella_Omega]

the point about laws stating marriage prohibitions based on incest is that these are related to laws prescribing criminal penalties for incest (between consenting adults).

i believe that these laws in turn are related to laws about underage incest.

all of these are related to 'taboo,' and in the adult cases, esp. where no blood relationship, one can see pure taboo, i.e. a kind of irrational thinking.

further in reading forbidden degrees, it's clear that the drafters went on and on [more and more extended] based on some initial feelings about ordinary cases, say, of father-daughter.

-----

i hold that this taboo is why there has yet to be mentioned, here, any realistic treatments of incest in thousands of lit stories. it is stereotyped or archetypalized. (the only exception i know of is 'acidic tiger', iirc)

What would be a realistic treatment-- would it go over well here on lit?

 

[emap]

Probably not.

As far as a realistic scenario, the only one I can think of is a brother and sister who did not know they were related meeting falling in love and getting married, not to mention kids. Actually happened, he was adopted, he and his birth mother never bothered to research where he went or who gave birth to him. I think his adoptive parents never told him he was adopted. I forget the whole sordid thing, I do know they are still married, or were allowed to stay that way, not real sure if they stayed husband and wife or not, I would be to ed out to stay with him like that, though of course I haven't fallen for a brother I didn't know about either.

Well there is also the experimenting siblings, which would rather have to be a period peice, just not that hard to find others to experiment with anymore.

Kinda loath to mention this one, but kissing cousins. You all know the story, two cousins get together during a family get together or live near enough together that they see each other alot and well get busy.

I've never done it personally, but I have seen it.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I put up a post on GB last summer on the topic of age of consent laws -- sparked by that awful case in Georgia where a 19 year old was sent to prison for getting a blow job from a fifteen year old.

My point was that age of consent laws are extraneous -- non consent is non consent no matter what the age. You shouldn't need some arbitrary age standard. What makes enforcement of these laws troubling is so many cases where it seems clear that the younger party was capable of granting informed consent, but the fiction of the law results in unfair prosecutions and convictions.

This does not mean that incest, sexual abuse of children or adult predation are okay -- just that if that is what we are trying to prevent, the age of consent laws are a clumsy and archaic way of doing it.

As for writing about these things -- one role of literature is to light up the dark areas of the human soul. Sometimes we don't like what we see, but not looking at it is even more dangerous.

Generally speaking, age of consent laws are for the purpose of protecting children from being taken advantage of sexually by adults. Certainly, a four or five year old child is not capable of giving informed consent. At the same time, a 17 year old of normal ntelligence would be. I believe the idea is to err on the side of caution, but I think it is being overdone in states where the age of consent is 18.

ETA: From what I read of the case in Georgia, it is a matter of racist prosecutor and judge, because the guy was a black student in high school and the girl was white. It was certainly a miscarriage of justice.

 

[Stella_Omega]

It took me a while to track it down from Pure's gnomic mention, but the story that he mentions, "an Acidic Tiger" is posted in the non-erotic cat.

It's graphically sexual, and a real turn-off. It answers Pure's question; "why aren't there more realistic treatments of incest on Lit?" in one shot.

 

[Boxlicker101]

It took me a while to track it down from Pure's gnomic mention, but the story that he mentions, "an Acidic Tiger" is posted in the non-erotic cat.

It's graphically sexual, and a real turn-off. It answers Pure's question; "why aren't there more realistic treatments of incest on Lit?" in one shot.

I read the story too, and it was not at all erotic, although quite graphic sexually. I have to wonder how it got accepted. The female's age is not given, but she certainly does not act like an adult.

I have no statistics, but I believe most parent/offspring incest involves a parent and a young child. Other incest would be a young girl and a much older male relative. All the incest stories I have written, and probably ever will write, involve adults having mutually consensual and enjoyable sex. I could write a story like "Acidic Tiger" although probably not as good. I won't though, because I don't even like reading something like that, and I certainly wouldn't want to write a story like that.

 

[Pure]

hi stella,
It answers Pure's question; "why aren't there more realistic treatments of incest on Lit?" in one shot.

i don't think so. lots of criminal acts are depicted routinely. why so few depictions for this act?

 

[Pure]

note to box.

have no statistics, but I believe most parent/offspring incest involves a parent and a young child. Other incest would be a young girl and a much older male relative.

not sure who's a 'young child'.

my own guess for an 'underage girl' would be that around the outset of puberty, as most common for onset...

 

[Boxlicker101]

have no statistics, but I believe most parent/offspring incest involves a parent and a young child. Other incest would be a young girl and a much older male relative.

not sure who's a 'young child'.

my own guess for an 'underage girl' would be that around the outset of puberty, as most common for onset...

By "young girl" I would think ten or even younger. An older child will realize there is something wrong going on, and try to stop it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

hi stella,
It answers Pure's question; "why aren't there more realistic treatments of incest on Lit?" in one shot.

i don't think so. lots of criminal acts are depicted routinely. why so few for this act?

uhhh.. at a guess, I'd say because the reality is not sexy. The readers who come here come here for erotic reading-- as the writers who post here post erotica specifically. There are other places for depictions of real life horror and misery, not so many places where I can offer my smut to readers.

 

[Boxlicker101]

uhhh.. at a guess, I'd say because the reality is not sexy. The readers who come here come here for erotic reading-- as the writers who post here post erotica specifically. There are other places for depictions of real life horror and misery, not so many places where I can offer my smut to readers.

If I were to write about a man who sneaks into his eight year old daughter's bed, which I never would, Lit. would never accept it. An adult daughter and her father, who enjoy sex together, might not be realistic, but it's fun to read and write about. Likewise brothers and sisters who are adult, etc. The more common actual events, involving prepubescent girls, would just be sordid.

ETA: Incest, even involving adults, is illegal. So is rape, forcible or by extortion, but we write about it. The fact that something is illegal doesn't mean we can't write about it. The fact that something is legal doesn't mean we can write about it.

 

[MzDeviancy]

You know, studies suggest that people who felt pleasure when they were molested end up with more emotional issues later on. How much of that do you think is due to the fact that all they hear on the subject of incest is how revolting it is and what sick freaks people who enjoy it are?

Rape is rape, and it will pretty much always mess a person up good because of the aspect of force, of violation. But say a child is sexually aware at a young age, even prepubescant (it does happen), and a much older family member engages in consensual sexual activities with them, stopping short of intercourse; would they have any issues if they weren't told by everyone around them that they'd been too young to give consent? That the older family member was a pervert who'd sexually assaulted them?

Feel free to call me a monster or a pervert or the devil incarnate, but I think this is just one of those topics where rational thought has been replaced by an almost hysterical fear of being labelled a pedophile.

My two cents. Carry on.

 

[amicus]

MzDeviancy...a lot more than two cents, my friend and thank you.

This thread is now over two hundred posts and what you said was what I had in mind when I dared post my thoughts.

This is an area, I think, that needs to be rationally explored and discussed and written about and even shared with others where ever it can be to lift the veil of darkness and shed light on a taboo subject.

Thanks yet again...

amicus...

 

[Pure]

good points mz d.

it's been long debated whether the alleged effects of "incest" or of "gay sex" are primarily to what society tells the person about that happened, e.g. you've done something evil. in the case of incest, perhaps it's "something evil was done to you; something so ugly that it's that's gonna traumatize you for life; you're *ruined*." self fulfilling prophesy.

also relevant are some issues around these acts: were they achieved by power, e.g. pressures, coercion? were they accomplished throug bribery? were they secret, e.g. was the girl made a replacment (sex partner) for what mom supplied
, with mom being kept in the dark.

also there may be issues of lies, betrayal, e.g "i'm doing this for your own good, to prepare you for sex with others."

 

[amicus]

Typical ploy, equate incest with butt fucking, yeah, sure, Pure, no one notices.

No one gives a shit if you like to be butt fucked, no one cares if your dick rots off and your asshole falls out, no one at all, when you do the deed in your own dark cave.

But do it on main street and brag about it, folks are gonna get pissed.

Ami...

 

[Boxlicker101]

You know, studies suggest that people who felt pleasure when they were molested end up with more emotional issues later on. How much of that do you think is due to the fact that all they hear on the subject of incest is how revolting it is and what sick freaks people who enjoy it are?

Rape is rape, and it will pretty much always mess a person up good because of the aspect of force, of violation. But say a child is sexually aware at a young age, even prepubescant (it does happen), and a much older family member engages in consensual sexual activities with them, stopping short of intercourse; would they have any issues if they weren't told by everyone around them that they'd been too young to give consent? That the older family member was a pervert who'd sexually assaulted them?

Feel free to call me a monster or a pervert or the devil incarnate, but I think this is just one of those topics where rational thought has been replaced by an almost hysterical fear of being labelled a pedophile.

My two cents. Carry on.

I think part of the problem is the term "molest". It equates the anal rape of a six year old boy by his uncle with that same uncle sucking off his 17 year old, totally willing nephew, with both people enjoying the encounter. Obviously, the two actions are nothing alike, but they both are described as the man molesting his nephew.

As you say, "Rape is rape" but molesting can be many things.

Or, if you want to remain M/F, it equates the rape of a six year old girl by her 23 year old uncle, and the mutually consensual and enjoyable fucking between a 17 year old, sexually active girl and her 23 year old uncle. Both these acts are illegal, as incest and because of the youth of the girl, and both would be described as "molestation" but the two events are nothing alike.

Both 17 year olds would carry no emotional baggage from the experiences, unless people told them they had been "victimized" by their "funny uncle".

 

[Pure]

just for clarity, amicus

No one gives a shit if you like to be butt fucked, no one cares if your dick rots off and your asshole falls out, no one at all, when you do the deed in your own dark cave.

does this mean that you think Lawrence was correctly decided by the US Supreme Ct.?

IOW, do you favor the Texans being told by the SC, 'you can't outlaw consensual sodomy between adults, performed in private.'

or IOW, DO you favor the Texans being told that their law against sodomy was flawed, according to the Constitution and SC precedent.?

(same question, three forms).

 

[Stella_Omega]

You know, studies suggest that people who felt pleasure when they were molested end up with more emotional issues later on. How much of that do you think is due to the fact that all they hear on the subject of incest is how revolting it is and what sick freaks people who enjoy it are?

Rape is rape, and it will pretty much always mess a person up good because of the aspect of force, of violation. But say a child is sexually aware at a young age, even prepubescant (it does happen), and a much older family member engages in consensual sexual activities with them, stopping short of intercourse; would they have any issues if they weren't told by everyone around them that they'd been too young to give consent? That the older family member was a pervert who'd sexually assaulted them?

Feel free to call me a monster or a pervert or the devil incarnate, but I think this is just one of those topics where rational thought has been replaced by an almost hysterical fear of being labelled a pedophile.

My two cents. Carry on.

Excellent point! And I like Pure's and Box's very thoughtful answers as well. But both of them seem to have missed your point that pre-pubescent children might enjoy sexual attention-- stopping short of intercourse; as you say. and I can agree with you there too; I know of such cases.

And yes, the atmosphere around the issue is one of hysteria; but I think that's mostly because this is the first time the subject has been addressed in such a large forum (meaning the world-wide-web) and the first time women, in particular, have been able to lead the discussion. And I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but-- the first times anyone has a chance to be listened to, they tend to overstate and speak in apocalyptic language; just think of divorce courts! I think we're looking at that same phenomenon, society-wide. So things get over-stated. It could take a while for the conversation to subside to reasonableness.

I notice that you were careful to say; stopping short of intercourse; Why?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Excellent point! And I like Pure's and Box's very thoughtful answers as well. But both of them seem to have missed your point that pre-pubescent children might enjoy sexual attention-- stopping short of intercourse; as you say. and I can agree with you there too; I know of such cases.

And yes, the atmosphere around the issue is one of hysteria; but I think that's mostly because this is the first time the subject has been addressed in such a large forum (meaning the world-wide-web) and the first time women, in particular, have been able to lead the discussion. And I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but-- the first times anyone has a chance to be listened to, they tend to overstate and speak in apocalyptic language; just think of divorce courts! I think we're looking at that same phenomenon, society-wide. So things get over-stated. It could take a while for the conversation to subside to reasonableness.

I notice that you were careful to say; stopping short of intercourse; Why?

I would assume that "sexual intercourse" means penetration or, at least, extended fondling or kissing of primary sex organs or anus. We are engaging in sexual intercourse on this thread - that is, we are discussing sexual matters. If a parents explains "The birds and the bees" to a child, that is sexual intercourse of a sort. Of course, nobody would find such actions objectionable.

My wife has described how sometimes, after bathing one of her baby boys, she would kiss his penis. This was a gesture of love, and nothing sexual but, in the US, she would have wrongly been considered to be a pervert. Presumably, the baby liked it also; babies usually enjoy affectionate gestures such as that. Of course, if some stranger had done the same thing, it would have been considered a perversion. Once again, a matter of "good touching" as opposed to "bad touching".

 

[Stella_Omega]

I would assume that "sexual intercourse" means penetration or, at least, extended fondling or kissing of primary sex organs or anus. We are engaging in sexual intercourse on this thread - that is, we are discussing sexual matters. If a parents explains "The birds and the bees" to a child, that is sexual intercourse of a sort. Of course, nobody would find such actions objectionable.

My wife has described how sometimes, after bathing one of her baby boys, she would kiss his penis. This was a gesture of love, and nothing sexual but, in the US, she would have wrongly been considered to be a pervert. Presumably, the baby liked it also; babies usually enjoy affectionate gestures such as that. Of course, if some stranger had done the same thing, it would have been considered a perversion. Once again, a matter of "good touching" as opposed to "bad touching".

Aww, I know just what your wife is talking about!

But-- yes, i assumed MsD meant penetration, that's what almost everyone means.

 

[Stella_Omega]

MzDeviancy...a lot more than two cents, my friend and thank you.

This thread is now over two hundred posts and what you said was what I had in mind when I dared post my thoughts.

This is an area, I think, that needs to be rationally explored and discussed and written about and even shared with others where ever it can be to lift the veil of darkness and shed light on a taboo subject.

Thanks yet again...

amicus...

Go for it, Ami! Explore, discuss and write.

The key here, would be; Rationally. You managed something like three rational posts in a row, and then got upset that no-one was flaming you.

Stop being a cartoon.

 

[SlickTony]

Speaking as one who has bathed and changed a baby boy, I'd say that kissing his penis, even if in no sexual context, is risky behavior. Because you never know when you're going to get a snootful of urine. I always changed my son standing off to one side for this reason

I notice that you were careful to say; stopping short of intercourse; Why?

I would assume that a child who has not achieved her full growth is not a good fit, and indeed is likely to suffer damage from penetration.

Of course, if some stranger had done the same thing, it would have been considered a perversion. Once again, a matter of "good touching" as opposed to "bad touching".

On the other hand, I can hardly think of any parent that hasn't put his or her lips to a baby's stomach and blown a raspberry. It always results in giggles on the kid's part. But does anybody remember the flap that ensued when Vladimir Putin did that to a slightly older kid he'd just met? I distinctly remember people thinking that was weird.

You know, studies suggest that people who felt pleasure when they were molested end up with more emotional issues later on. How much of that do you think is due to the fact that all they hear on the subject of incest is how revolting it is and what sick freaks people who enjoy it are?

Rape is rape, and it will pretty much always mess a person up good because of the aspect of force, of violation. But say a child is sexually aware at a young age, even prepubescant (it does happen), and a much older family member engages in consensual sexual activities with them, stopping short of intercourse; would they have any issues if they weren't told by everyone around them that they'd been too young to give consent? That the older family member was a pervert who'd sexually assaulted them?

Your point is well worth considering. I've never had anything like that happen to me, but if it had, and I'd liked it, I'd be pissed if I were told that the thing that had given me pleasure was too terrible to even be thought of; if my protests of "But it was fun! I liked it!" were met with vehement shushing and hysterical conversation flowing over my head; the visits to the office of a stranger who'd ask me weird questions and try to get me to repudiate what I'd said. I'd feel, underage or not, that my selfhood, my autonomy as an individual, was being denied.

This is not the only context where a kid is likely to be told that he/she is not really feeling what he/she is feeling. In fact, people bamboozle each other like that all the time, and to me it is a kind of gaslighting.

 

[WRJames]

It took me a while to track it down from Pure's gnomic mention, but the story that he mentions, "an Acidic Tiger" is posted in the non-erotic cat.

It's graphically sexual, and a real turn-off. It answers Pure's question; "why aren't there more realistic treatments of incest on Lit?" in one shot.

I took a look at it -- one of the most powerful stories I have seen on Lit. It it isn't a genuine cry of pain, it's a wonderful piece of writing. Certianly very convincing and shocking.

My wife has attended a couple of UN conferences on the status of women and children -- some of the material she has come back, stuff that is actually happening in this world of ours, would be dismissed as the work of some terribly evil imagination. And it keeps happening, in part because no one talks about it.

We have been sexualizing our children at the same time we have been raising the age of consent laws and increasing social taboos against sex with younger teens. Doing one or the other might make sense -- but doing both at the same time seems like it is going to result in a lot of problems.

 

[emap]

We already have alot of problems. Schools are outlawing simple physical contact, a hug or holding hands is now going to get you suspended. Kissing of course goes right out the window at school.

Which is of course an incredibly bad idea. I am sure it all started because of some complaint some kid went to the principal with about how two girls were hugging each other, probably mad because they would not hug him.

Not going to say it is the kids that are having a problem nowadays with everything, it is learned behavior. When some dumbass spills hot coffee on themselves, they don't go damn I am in idiot and learn from the mistake. Nope they go running to the courts and file a lawsuit. Kids see this and go well damn I live here to so I can not take personal responsibility and just blame anything and everything on everyone else.

 

[SlickTony]

I can barely remember a time I wasn't curious, but by that time, I'd already received The Message; I don't consider that that did me a damn bit of good.