Underage incest fantasys

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, she is.

Another helluva writer, Nabokov, set the standard for portraying the sexually aware nymphette. At first, Lolita was eager for sexual adventure with her step-father, Humbert Humbert. But once they became lovers, she lacked the emotional maturity and chronological age needed to deal with the ramifications.

Rumple Foreskin

No one seems to remember that the subtitle of the book is The Confessions of a White Widowed Male.
This subtitle is pretty important if you're going to reference the book at all-- Humbert's nymphettes are sexually desirable pre-pubescent girls. In no way does he ever say that they are sexually aware. In fact he's shocked (and hurt) when he discovers that Lolita has lost her virginity at that summer's camp.

Lolita was willing to seduce Humbert the first time, because she was terrified and alone. Her mother had just died. Humbert presented himself to her as her only lifeline. But the only other time she initiated sex was at the end, when she wanted to leave him.

The wikipedia sums it up pretty well;

The novel is a tragicomedy narrated by Humbert, who riddles the narrative with wordplay and his wry observations of American culture. His humor provides an effective counterpoint to the pathos of the tragic plot. The novel's flamboyant style is characterized by word play, double entendres, multilingual puns, anagrams, and coinages such as nymphet, a word that has since had a life of its own and can be found in most dictionaries, and the lesser used "faunlet". Nabokov's Lolita is far from an endorsement of pedophilia, since it dramatizes the tragic consequences of Humbert's obsession with the young heroine.

(NOT Lolita's obsession with Humbert, which doesn't even exist)

Nabokov himself described Humbert as "a vain and cruel wretch" and "a hateful person" (quoted in Levine, 1967).

Humbert is a well-educated, multilingual, literary-minded European émigré, as is Nabokov. But Humbert is also extraordinarily handsome, and he asks the reader to bear that fact in mind. He fancies himself a great artist, but lacks the curiosity that Nabokov considers essential. Humbert tells the story of a Lolita that he creates in his mind because he is unable and unwilling to listen to the actual girl and accept her on her own terms. In the words of Richard Rorty, from his famous interpretation of Lolita in Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity, Humbert is a "monster of incuriosity".

Some critics have accepted Humbert's version of events at face value. In 1959, novelist Robertson Davies excused the narrator entirely, writing that the theme of Lolita is "not the corruption of an innocent child by a cunning adult, but the exploitation of a weak adult by a corrupt child".

I find this astonishing, I thought Davies was smarter than that-- but doesn't it sound like some other people we know?

Most writers, however, have given less credit to Humbert and more to Nabokov's powers as an ironist. Martin Amis, in his essay on Stalinism, Koba the Dread, proposes that Lolita is an elaborate metaphor for the totalitarianism that destroyed the Russia of Nabokov's childhood (though Nabokov states in his Afterword that he "[detests] symbols and allegories"). Amis interprets it as a story of tyranny told from the point of view of the tyrant. "All of Nabokov's books are about tyranny," he says, "even Lolita. Perhaps Lolita most of all".

In 2003, Iranian expatriate Azar Nafisi published the memoir Reading Lolita in Tehran about a covert women's reading group. In this book the psychological and political interpretations of Lolita are united, since as female intellectuals in Iran, Nafisi and her students were denied both public liberty and private sexual selfhood. Although rejecting a too-easy identification of Lolita's captivity with that of her students ("...we were not Lolita, the Ayatollah was not Humbert...") Nafisi writes of her students' strong emotional connection with the book: "what linked us so closely was this perverse intimacy of victim and jailer" and "like Lolita we tried to escape and create our own little pockets of freedom".

For Nafisi, the essence of the novel is Humbert's solipsism and his erasure of Lolita's independent identity. She writes: "Lolita was given to us as Humbert's creature [...] To reinvent her, Humbert must take from Lolita her own real history and replace it with his own [...] Yet she does have a past. Despite Humbert's attempts to orphan Lolita by robbing her of her history, that past is still given to us in glimpses".

One of the novel's early champions, Lionel Trilling, warned in 1958 of the moral difficulty in interpreting a book with so eloquent and so self-deceived a narrator: "we find ourselves the more shocked when we realize that, in the course of reading the novel, we have come virtually to condone the violation it presents [...] we have been seduced into conniving in the violation, because we have permitted our fantasies to accept what we know to be revolting". ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita#Style_and_interpretation )

When I read the book, at about sixteen and well after my own sexual activity had begun, I thought Humbert was quite obviously deceiving himself. It seemed obvious to me that Lola was fucking around and not even 'on the sly'-- he was so wrapped up in his fantasy world that the real person didn't even exist in his mind.

I'd also like to point out that Humbert was NOT her father.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Still proceeding from the premise that this area of human behavior should be considered, thought about, written about and not treated as a taboo subject for literature, I cautiously venture forth from a new perspective.

Please accept this as hypothetical and interrogative and not an individual or personal advocacy or prefence.

First, let us say that I have a story of brother/sister incest with the following stipulations: twins, eighteen years old, meets the requirement for publication on Lit. Living together all their lives, never before did they feel a sense of attraction to each other. Although both have dated and 'fooled around', neither have consumated intercourse.

The sister undergoes a terribly traumatic event that renders her emotionally destroyed; she cannot function. The brother wants to help but does not know how or what to do. He wants to hold and comfort her but she cannot bear to even have him near, let alone touch her.

She begins sobbing uncontrollably and the brother embraces her because he cannot bear to listen and watch without doing something.

You can take it from there, but to complicate matters even more, as a supposition, let me suggest or postulate that they fall in love and wish to spend their lives together.

Izzat grist for the literary mill or still so taboo that it nauseates you, as someone said.

Stretching your credibility to the utmost, let us add a father/daughter and a mother/son scenario, with of course the added ingredients of age and emotional maturity taken into consideration.

Supposing, again for the purpose of discussion and with the stipulation that there is no coercion in any way, supposing that circumstance and proximity places two people, chronological age basically disregarded but pedophilia not an ingredient, if you follow my reasoning.

Supposing that comfort to get through a traumatic event, in the form of a physical embrace is the catalyst and it could be from either party as a young person might well console a grief stricken parent.

There are many pitfalls in the genre and I am certain you can visualize all of them, but again, I offer those ideas as theoretical story lines and I maintain they are valid areas of artistic consideration.

What say you?


Amicus...

Ami, I think that any of these scenarios could work.

Please note; sibling incest doesn't nauseate me. There are plenty of sib scenarios that i enjoy-- including brother/brother

Likewise, parent-child incest wouldn't (and hasn't) bothered me when the premise that the child is absolutely capable of making her or his own decision, and will continue to be an autonomous human being afterwards as well. This means that the author has to create a character who has enough experience to know what, and why, they are doing what they are doing.

Selena's story failed for me on that account. The child had no individual life. She was not her own agent. Humbert's Lola was her own person, but never in Humbert's mind-- it utterly shocked him, every time he was confronted with it. She'd already lost her virginity-- the possibility had never crossed his mind!

 

[amicus]

Selena's story troubled me also, to a point I did not offer comment, which I usually do.

That was a few days ago and I read several more of her works and have been slowly coming to a conclusion that you might appreciate, then again, maybe not.

If there are such people in this world as the girl's fundamentalist father and I do not doubt that there are, is a literary consideration of that not also worthy?

Even to a more extreme and brutal circumstances as sex slaves undergo, although I have no interest in exploring or writing of that, is that not also fair territory for a writer?

I imagine Selena achieved her writing goal in 'nauseating' a sensitive reader to the loutish behavior of the father and perhaps therein is the 'author's message' contained.

Dunno...what do I know...ahem...

Amicus...

 

[emap]

Ami your first idea there is actually pretty darn romantic. If he is not her twin brother it would be any number of romance novels already written.

I'll skip the mother son and father daughter stuff. I don't get it, when I was growing up and first hit puberty, I lusted after a couple friends dad's not mine. I love him dearly of course, but if he say asked if I wanted him I'd have to say no. I tease him about it sometimes, say he is the ugliest guy I love.

 

[amicus]

Thas cute and interesting emap, thanks. I imagine my daughters see me in the same light, although sometimes they just shake their heads, not understanding some of the things I do and especially, some of the things I write.

Curiously though, with five daughters, there has never been even a twitch of sexual attraction but I have found other girls their age attractive, for whatever that means.

Ami...

 

[Stella_Omega]

Selena's story troubled me also, to a point I did not offer comment, which I usually do.

That was a few days ago and I read several more of her works and have been slowly coming to a conclusion that you might appreciate, then again, maybe not.

If there are such people in this world as the girl's fundamentalist father and I do not doubt that there are, is a literary consideration of that not also worthy?

Even to a more extreme and brutal circumstances as sex slaves undergo, although I have no interest in exploring or writing of that, is that not also fair territory for a writer?

I imagine Selena achieved her writing goal in 'nauseating' a sensitive reader to the loutish behavior of the father and perhaps therein is the 'author's message' contained.

Dunno...what do I know...ahem...

Amicus...

Of course, it's all fair territory-- everything is. I am writing something about an underaged sexual victim, as it happens, been working on it for about a half-year now. My character likes sex-- he doesn't like being victimised, and the theme is about his struggle to maintain himself whole in the face of what other people expect from him. He struggles for the right to be able to make his own choices (this won't be publishable on Lit!).

But the question here has been within the context of erotic fantasy material remember. Selena posted her link in response to my challenge to show a way this scenario could be erotic and sexy... I don't think she meant it to be nauseating, and her writing, in itself, never is! I'm just describing my own reactions to the scenario. We'll have to wait for her comment, I guess.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thas cute and interesting emap, thanks. I imagine my daughters see me in the same light, although sometimes they just shake their heads, not understanding some of the things I do and especially, some of the things I write.

Curiously though, with five daughters, there has never been even a twitch of sexual attraction but I have found other girls their age attractive, for whatever that means.

Ami...

I find my children's friends attractive-- how could you not? All that energy, freshness, those hormones!

And I am positive that other children's parents have noticed mine. But--. actually following up on what I've noticed? Naw. They all deserve much much more than I could give them, for starters. And I deserve bed-companions that are in my own class. I've slept with younger people, ten and fifteen years my junior. I would be sleeping with people thirty years younger than me-- naw. Not needed, not necessary.

 

[amicus]

Must be this damned Season, can't you find something to bitch at me about, I am quite uncomfortable with all the niceties...



ahem...

I mean PM Pure and the gang, send out a flare for Cantdog and Gauche, see if xcssv still wants to fool around, hell, youse guys can do better than this!

ami

 

[Pure]

brother sister incest, between adults, hardly requires a 'new perspective'. the film 'close my eyes' (1991) handled the topic rather well, with fine performances by Rickman and Reeves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_My_Eyes_(film)

amithis area of human behavior should be considered, thought about, written about and not treated as a taboo subject for literature,

just wondering if amicus would favor repealing all laws regarding incest between adults, and all legal impediments to marriage of closely-related, opposite-sex couples (with the undertaking, where the couple is mother/son, father/daughter, or brother/sister, that no children are to be produced). does his fearless addressing of this taboo extend into real life and the realm of individual freedom?

what do others say? I have no basic probs with these proposals, but then again i'm a commie nihilist bent on destroying the greatest country ever to grace this planet.

 

[amicus]

brother sister incest, between adults, hardly require a 'new perspective'. the film 'close my eyes' handled the topic rather will, with fine performances by Rickman and Reeves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_My_Eyes_(film)

Speak of the devil...invalid link, you can't do anything right, can you?

I feel better now.

AMICUS

 

[Stella_Omega]

Must be this damned Season, can't you find something to bitch at me about, I am quite uncomfortable with all the niceties...



ahem...

I mean PM Pure and the gang, send out a flare for Cantdog and Gauche, see if xcssv still wants to fool around, hell, youse guys can do better than this!

ami

I can't help it-- you're making sense, you're asking reasonable questions, and posting responses that sound like you've read the posts. *shrug*

ETA--

brother sister incest, between adults, hardly require a 'new perspective'. the film 'close my eyes' handled the topic rather well, with fine performances by Rickman and Reeves.

is that all the perspective the topic will ever need, then? Or could there be room for yet other perspectives?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Selena posted her link in response to my challenge to show a way this scenario could be erotic and sexy...

Ah no... I posted the COMMENTS as a response to the challenge... not the story itself. I didn't expect you to connect to the story on that level. I don't think it's ever gonna be your thing... just like crossdressing isn't mine--doesn't interest me in the least. But some people find it very erotic. And some people do find this scenario erotic and sexy... as the comments show. Some, even despite their initial bias. *shrug* That was really my point, I suppose.

As for it being "disturbing." If an incest story isn't, at least a little, then you're doing something wrong. The taboo is what makes it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Ah no... I posted the COMMENTS as a response to the challenge... not the story itself. I didn't expect you to connect to the story on that level. I don't think it's ever gonna be your thing... just like crossdressing isn't mine--doesn't interest me in the least. But some people find it very erotic. And some people do find this scenario erotic and sexy... as the comments show. Some, even despite their initial bias. *shrug* That was really my point, I suppose.

As for it being "disturbing." If an incest story isn't, at least a little, then you're doing something wrong. The taboo is what makes it.

Ah, I getcha! And the comments on that story showed very clearly how well-regarded your story is to the afficiandos. I admit that I find it frustrating to find a perversion that I can't get behind.

But it seems that this one contraindicates some other fetishes that I already have.

 

[Pure]

stella, Or could there be room for yet other perspectives?

'close my eyes' was just one example.

of course there's room for other perspectives, but the likelihood of their arising from the misogynist far-right is vanishingly small, and there is no present evidence to the contrary.

 

[amicus]

Ah, things are back to normal, PURE Scrooge, or a more modern Grinch?

d'ami

 

[WRJames]

On the general subject of incest -- my experience is that people who live together or close together have more difficulty developing a sexual relationship than if they are relative strangers. Maybe it's just me -- but I was living in a more or less communal situation for a while and we were -- disappointingly -- brothers and sisters. There just was not that romantic spark. It got to the point where the group called in an expert to work with it on its sexuality. I wound up moving in with a girl from outside the group.

And the next year, I was living in a brownstone that was fairly communal -- everyone knew everyone else. There were two ballerinas on the same floor as me, and we were very good friends -- but again -- no spark.

So I don't know -- it's not that I don't enjoy reading the incest stories, but they've always seemed a little far fetched.

 

[Pure]

incest in stories

is a tricky undertaking. in these parts, there is the porn temptation, and there are general probs of the archetype/stereotype variety.

i had a look a selena's 'lost souls' and of course it's superbly written.
at the same time she consciously and overtly pitched it in archetypal
territory, as a purported encounter of Lilith and Adam.

the taboo is explored, and there's erotism in one way. as there is in the Story of O, for example. at the same time, i don't find the story impinges on reality particularly, since Adam, specifically, is highly stereotyped most of the time.

i think the story testifies to the strength of the taboo. it's quasi-overcome at the archetypal level, but not at the level of reality. all in all, of course, it's a fine literary experiment, with excellent craftmanship.

 

[Boxlicker101]

No one seems to remember that the subtitle of the book is The Confessions of a White Widowed Male.
This subtitle is pretty important if you're going to reference the book at all-- Humbert's nymphettes are sexually desirable pre-pubescent girls. In no way does he ever say that they are sexually aware. In fact he's shocked (and hurt) when he discovers that Lolita has lost her virginity at that summer's camp.

Lolita was willing to seduce Humbert the first time, because she was terrified and alone. Her mother had just died. Humbert presented himself to her as her only lifeline. But the only other time she initiated sex was at the end, when she wanted to leave him.

The wikipedia sums it up pretty well;
(NOT Lolita's obsession with Humbert, which doesn't even exist) I find this astonishing, I thought Davies was smarter than that-- but doesn't it sound like some other people we know?
When I read the book, at about sixteen and well after my own sexual activity had begun, I thought Humbert was quite obviously deceiving himself. It seemed obvious to me that Lola was fucking around and not even 'on the sly'-- he was so wrapped up in his fantasy world that the real person didn't even exist in his mind.

I'd also like to point out that Humbert was NOT her father.

Did he actually have the hots for pre-pubescent girls. I read the book a long time ago, but I seem to remember that he wrote of "breasts beginning to burgeon" or words to that effect. This would have put them right at puberty. I also seem to remember that Lolita would initiate sex when she wanted something, such as money.

ETA: I just remembered also. The first time, she woke up while he was fondling her, and wanted to go all the way with him. H justified himself by saying that she had seduced him, which was something of an exaggeration.

 

[emap]

I am going with WR on the incest part.

It happened alot at one time because there was nobody else around so you get all those hormones screaming for sex and nobody to do anything with besides your parents or brother/sister.

Now perhaps I am wrong, but to me the women who like being done by a daddy are more wanting to be submissive. Opposite for men wanting to be with mom, or be daddy. Not real sure why this is, but apparently most men fantasize about bedding their mother, when they first hit puberty because well female and there, I get that part sorta, but also later on. That one I don't get, apparently it is a form of wanting to break free from mom and dad.

Like I said I don't get it, I moved out never had a desire to strip either of my parents down and do them. Though I don't recall reading anything about women wanting to do the same thing. Perhaps it is simply that women think differently, or maybe we are just smarter.

As for wanting someone much younger than us, Stella actually touched on it already. A desire to have someone with all that energy and desire that we can shape to do what we want. I don't see a problem with that, I wouldn't mind having a guy who does everything I love to me and can do so 5-6 times a day.

Which funnily enough, a guy in his 20's can do, I don't understand the underage part of so many of the younger desires. When it is men lusting after underage women they generally want a woman with little to no breasts. Women wanting younger men, I don't know, so don't get it, I prefer my men to be grown, have hair in all those weird places, so on so forth.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Pure hit the nail on the head. Incest is an archetypal fantasy - as a fantasy. I'm not talking about the reality of incest at all. I wouldn't want to go there, and don't find it erotic in the least. Most (not all but most) people who fantasize about incest do so NOT with their "real" family members. It's the archetypal IDEA of brother/sister or father/daughter or mother/son... and the incest fantasy is much, much more about love than sex. The sex is like a physical manifestation of love in these fantasies. Ami hit the nail on the head when he talked about younger girls and their desires... at that age, it has very little to do with a physical release and more to do with an emotional desire to be wanted, loved, accepted.

Granted, my Lost Souls is a non-typical incest story in that way (and typical incest readers reminded me of that - ad nauseum! lol) But Garden of Eden, which I wrote for nude day, is a more typical (and again, archetypal) incest fantasy, where love and emotion play a major part. (Not to make this thread into a "plug Selena's stories" thread or anything! ) I've also explored incest outside of the archetypal realm in the Naughty Bits series, with brother and sister incest in a much more realistic setting...

But realism in these fantasies are relative. For those who are interested in the fantasy of incest, most aren't connected to the real and wouldn't take the opportunity if it presented itself at all. It isn't about that. It's about the psyche's connection, and yes, it's usually something that was missing and is still missing that makes the psyche long for that connection, whether it's mother/son or father/daughter or brother/sister etc.

But I agree with Stella:

And I am positive that other children's parents have noticed mine. But--. actually following up on what I've noticed? Naw. They all deserve much much more than I could give them, for starters. And I deserve bed-companions that are in my own class. I've slept with younger people, ten and fifteen years my junior. I would be sleeping with people thirty years younger than me-- naw. Not needed, not necessary.

I wouldn't take the fantasy into reality.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Pure hit the nail on the head. Incest is an archetypal fantasy - as a fantasy. I'm not talking about the reality of incest at all. I wouldn't want to go there, and don't find it erotic in the least. Most (not all but most) people who fantasize about incest do so NOT with their "real" family members. It's the archetypal IDEA of brother/sister or father/daughter or mother/son... and the incest fantasy is much, much more about love than sex. The sex is like a physical manifestation of love in these fantasies. Ami hit the nail on the head when he talked about younger girls and their desires... at that age, it has very little to do with a physical release and more to do with an emotional desire to be wanted, loved, accepted.

So, you're saying that Incest fantasists are (probably) thinking of some other family than their own? The sibs, parents, are not the ones they actually have, and they themselves are members of some other family. That makes perfect sense to me!

 

[Pure]

question

question

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should the law forbid a step mom or adoptive mom from marrying her stepson/adoptive son, where both are adults? (NO blood relationship)

 

[Stella_Omega]

question

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should the law forbid a step mom or adoptive mom from marrying her stepson/adoptive son, where both are adults? (NO blood relationship)

DOES the law forbid this? I don't think so. Not even in America.

 

[Pure]

note to stella

incest laws that include 'step' and 'adoptive' relationships are in fact not uncommon for some states in the US, and are found in many countries including UK: for example:

US, Connecticutt:
http://www.jud.state.ct.us/lawlib/Notebooks/Pathfinders/MarriageinCT/marriage.htm

Who May Marry in Connecticut
A Guide to Resources in the Law Library

SCOPE: Bibliographic resources relating to person who may marry in Connecticut

DEFINITIONS: · “Connecticut has its statutory scheme in place to implement its policy of delineating the relationships between persons under our jurisdiction who may properly enter into marriage. It has been for many years and still remains the declared public policy of the state.” Singh v. Singh, 213 Conn. 637, 656, 569 A.2d 1112 (1990).

· Affinity vs. Consanguinity: “Affinity is ‘the connection existing in consequence of marriage between each of the married persons and the kindred of the other.’ In re Bordeaux’s Estate, 37 Wn.2d 561, 565, 225 P.2d 433 (1950); annot., 26 A.L.R.2d 271.” Lavieri v. Commissioner of Revenue Services, 184 Conn. 380, 383, 439 A.2d 1012 (1981). Affinity is distinguished from consanguinity, which is relationship by blood.” Remington v. Aetna Casualty & Surety Co., 35 Conn. App. 581, 587, 646 A.2d 266 (1994).

STATUTES: · Conn. Gen. Stat. (2005)
§ 46b-21. Kindred who may not marry. “No man may marry his mother, grandmother, daughter, granddaughter, sister, aunt, niece, stepmother or stepdaughter, and no woman may marry her father, grandfather, son, grandson, brother, uncle, nephew, stepfather or stepson. Any marriage within these degrees is void.”
---
MASSACHUSETTS

CERTAIN MARRIAGES PROHIBITED


Chapter 207: Section 2. Marriage of woman to certain relatives


Section 2. No woman shall marry her father, grandfather, son, grandson, brother, stepfather, grandmother’s husband, daughter’s husband, granddaughter’s husband, husband’s grandfather, husband’s son, husband’s grandson, brother’s son, sister’s son, father’s brother or mother’s brother.




====

for UK, see, (includes 'step')

http://www.weddingsday.co.uk/service_prohibitedmarriages/

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for US, breakdown by state:

http://lawdigest.uslegal.com/family-laws/annulment-and-prohibited-marriage/7112/

----

note: a number of states forbid first cousin marriages.
wyoming, wisconsin, west va., washington

----

some states listed as prohibiting 'step' related persons:
texas, rhode island, oklahoma, mass., georgia

===


some states listed as prohibiting 'adoptive'

texas, s. dakota

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thanks for the info. It might be useful to someone...

The primary topic in this thread has not been marriage at all, but sexual congress. oh, and penis envy...