Trust

[IrisAlthea]

Recent discussion in Kim’s thread made me think about trust.

What makes you trust someone? What makes you loose trust and can it be gained back once lost?
Do you consider yourself a trusting person? Do others?

No need to feel thst the questions must be answered. They are just meant as an inspiration. I’m really just curious what your thoughts are on the topic.

 

[Ssbbw4u1974]

I've always had trust issues.
What helps me trust someone is that they don't run when my mental illness acts up. It's challenging, I understand, but.. it can be done.

 

[KatieDoes]

Recent discussion in Kim’s thread made me think about trust.

What makes you trust someone? What makes you loose trust and can it be gained back once lost?
Do you consider yourself a trusting person? Do others?

No need to feel thst the questions must be answered. They are just meant as an inspiration. I’m really just curious what your thoughts are on the topic.

Trust takes me a long time. A very very long time.

I’m outspoken and opinionated (no, really) and that lets people think that they really know me. But there’s a whole other layer that’s perpetually guarded, and very few people have ever seen even a glimpse of.

On the rare occasions that I bestow enough trust in someone to let them see all of me.. breaking it is irreversible. There’s no coming back from that.

 

[Acktion]

More than a few times, I've been asked if I can be trusted. I don't even know what to say to that. I mean, wouldn't an untrustworthy person say that they are? The only way I know to prove trustworthiness is to give or be given enough rope to hang ourselves.

Megadeth ~ Trust


What a word. Trust. We talk about it all the time. But, what the hell is it? And how do we know when we are breaking it? Or when they have broken ours?



(And since I can think of at least three people that will come after me loaded for bear if I so much as mention Maslow or the security level of the pyramid, I'm not gonna.)



Everybody has their own "thing" there, I think. What causes their fragile trust to feel abused. I don't know. I don't pretend to know everything about anybody other than myself much less much of relevance to every single person I meet. And I think I'm pretty simple and straightforward. Maybe even too simple and straightforward. I've got three big ones that I won't put up with from even just a friend without knocking them back down to "an acquaintance I used to know." Three things that I give automatically and expect in return.



Lies are a thing for me. I don't lie. Some of that is probably my upbringing. "Thou shalt not lie." And then, of course, a father with a heavy hand that would make sure to punish lies more than the actual transgression I was trying to cover. But, it's a little more than that, I think. If I tell a lie to someone, then I have to try to remember what the hell the lie was I told to this person from that point on. And then I have to figure out if this person is talking to that person. And so I have to make sure I tell that person the same lie, in case they compare stories. I don't have the time or inclination to worry with all that happy horseshit. The truth is easier to remember. And then I don't have to worry who tells who what. Not to mention that I know if word gets back to me of something that I didn't say that the person who said it is a liar.



On the flip-side of the coin, I view lies told to me as an insult. Not just to me as a person, but to my intelligence. That I could figure out it was a lie. Eventually. I don't go looking. I tend to take people at face value. But, I remember pretty good. And if something comes back around that gives the lie to something told to me, then I start evaluating. Or if I see them lying to someone else, I start evaluating. And I also start watching. This becomes tiring. If every time someone's mouth moves, I have to weigh each and every word for truth, then it's not going to be very long before I decide they just aren't worth the hassle.

Refusal to answer or hedging around the subject is one thing, and somewhat understandable for me. Trust, after all, is a two way street. And I would worry more about some gal telling me how many squares of toilet paper she uses to wipe with on first acquaintance than just not choosing to answer at that point.
But, the words said should be true, or why bother?



Abandonment is a thing for me. Maybe it started from being tossed aside like a used condom or tampon at birth. Maybe it was my parents (I categorically refuse the term "adoptive parents" since they are my only parents) deciding I wasn't enough and bringing in another that everybody liked better. Maybe it was all the various girlfriends/lovers/fiances/submissives over the years that left (I only broke with one out of all of them). Maybe it was getting sick (Parkinson's) and watching everyone, friends and family, people I had been there for time and again pull away once I wasn't useful to them anymore. But, even as something firmly on the capitalized side of the slash, if someone is not there when I need them because they are too busy with someone else, then why should I break my back to be there for them? Why should I believe they will be if they never are? Why should I continue to make them my priority when I am not ever theirs? How can I count on them?



Don't get me wrong. Shit happens. Life happens. Work comes before play. Kids come before cum. Duty before pleasure. But, if I am an afterthought to everything every time, then that's just not going to cut it. And walking away, saying "I'm done" means we're done. And so is the damage. Even if you come back the next day and try to say, "I didn't mean it" you've shown me that you are not steadfast.



Violence... There is a difference, huge difference, between a playful tussle with bratty prey to get the blood pumping and lashing out with the full intent to harm me, whether it is physically or even just emotionally... No. I am not your masochist whipping toy. At one point, I would have stuck with just physically. But, I have learned, the hard way, that when someone knows your buttons and purposefully strikes them to cause harm... No. Just, no.



38 Special - Second Chance


However, everybody has a bad day. Everybody deserves a second chance. "Turn the other cheek" and all that. But, how many do you give? I've only got so many cheeks. And if they hit me on both the top ones, they can kiss right between the bottom ones. Each lie is a strike. Each abandonment is a strike. Lashing out with the intent to cause me harm (physically or emotionally) is an automatic two strikes (through someone else to get me is an automatic three). Once they accumulate three strikes, they are out. They are someone I used to know. They can come back as many times as they choose, but my trust has been shattered and they don't get what they had. How can I trust you aren't lying if you have shown you will? How can I trust you to stay if you have shown you won't? How can I trust you not to try to hurt me if you already have?



This holds true for friends. This holds true for lovers. This holds true for submissives. If I can't trust your honesty, that you will stand by me when I need to count on you, or that you will not attempt to do me harm, then what else matters? Is there anything else to integrity that can support the loss of one or more of these three?



The rest... I don't know. Telling tales outside of our confidence, for example, is kind of a grey area. I don't really have any secrets or anything. (Although I've learned the hard way to keep other people's secrets, even that I talk to them in private at all, much less what about.) I've got stuff I don't talk about to just anybody, sure. (Hard as it may be to believe.) And I might be disappointed if someone told something to someone that I didn't think was any of their business. But, I think that is a lot dependent on just how it is done. If they do it to hurt me, then we fall back on rule three. If they do it and don't tell the truth, then we fall back on rule one. Intent can matter, perhaps. But, the consequence of the action, the harm wrought is still the more important. Not, however, the big three. Intent matters not a whit there. Lying to protect me is still lying. Abandoning me to protect me is still abandoning me.



But, I don't know. I admit I'm really a pretty simple fellow. Perhaps even simplistic. Maybe there are other things that break trust for other people. And I've tried to be open and to honor those limits when I'm made aware of them, even if subconsciously I still slot them into one of my three for simplicity's sake. Even when they tromp all over mine, I just walk away without tromping on theirs on my way out. But, I don't see that as me abandoning them so much as salvaging myself from them abusing my trust.



Thoughts and comments are, as always, welcome. Whether you think I am too harsh or that I missed something that you think is a major breach of trust that couldn't be covered by these three. Even if you think I sound like a little candy-ass somewhere on the lower-cased side of the slash. (You would be wrong, but I would love to hear reasoned rational arguments.)



But, whatever row you feel you need to hoe, go out of your way to make yours (and your person's/people's) a good day.

Billy Joel - A Matter of Trust

 

[IrisAlthea]

I've always had trust issues.
What helps me trust someone is that they don't run when my mental illness acts up. It's challenging, I understand, but.. it can be done.

I’ve thought about this a bit.
I can understand trusting them to be accepting, but for me that would just be a part of it.

Trust takes me a long time. A very very long time.

I’m outspoken and opinionated (no, really) and that lets people think that they really know me. But there’s a whole other layer that’s perpetually guarded, and very few people have ever seen even a glimpse of.

On the rare occasions that I bestow enough trust in someone to let them see all of me.. breaking it is irreversible. There’s no coming back from that.

I can relate a lot to this.
People sometimes seem to see me as more trusting than I am. It’s usually more about me trusting myself to be able to handle the situation.

And I agree, really trusting someone takes consistency over time. To me, it is the only true marker.

if i didn't trust Him this much (and He me) W/we wouldn't have as much fun i seem to trust quite easily but not without caution without enough trust bdsm is not possible and the extremer the fun the more trust necessary

Yes.
We often mention the importance of trust, but rarely talk about what is needed for that trust to build. I think that can be really confusing, because there are different kinds of trust involved.
Even getting into BDSM with someone you already trust to be generally safe, accepting, well meaning etc doesn’t mean that there is trust that they have knowledge and competence to do BDSM that you consider risky, just as you don’t let your partner operate on you just because they are trustworthy and well meaning.
I used to use hair ut as an example when talking about this but then the pandemic happened.

More than a few times, I've been asked if I can be trusted. I don't even know what to say to that. I mean, wouldn't an untrustworthy person say that they are? The only way I know to prove trustworthiness is to give or be given enough rope to hang ourselves.

Megadeth ~ Trust


What a word. Trust. We talk about it all the time. But, what the hell is it? And how do we know when we are breaking it? Or when they have broken ours?



(And since I can think of at least three people that will come after me loaded for bear if I so much as mention Maslow or the security level of the pyramid, I'm not gonna.)



Everybody has their own "thing" there, I think. What causes their fragile trust to feel abused. I don't know. I don't pretend to know everything about anybody other than myself much less much of relevance to every single person I meet. And I think I'm pretty simple and straightforward. Maybe even too simple and straightforward. I've got three big ones that I won't put up with from even just a friend without knocking them back down to "an acquaintance I used to know." Three things that I give automatically and expect in return.



Lies are a thing for me. I don't lie. Some of that is probably my upbringing. "Thou shalt not lie." And then, of course, a father with a heavy hand that would make sure to punish lies more than the actual transgression I was trying to cover. But, it's a little more than that, I think. If I tell a lie to someone, then I have to try to remember what the hell the lie was I told to this person from that point on. And then I have to figure out if this person is talking to that person. And so I have to make sure I tell that person the same lie, in case they compare stories. I don't have the time or inclination to worry with all that happy horseshit. The truth is easier to remember. And then I don't have to worry who tells who what. Not to mention that I know if word gets back to me of something that I didn't say that the person who said it is a liar.



On the flip-side of the coin, I view lies told to me as an insult. Not just to me as a person, but to my intelligence. That I could figure out it was a lie. Eventually. I don't go looking. I tend to take people at face value. But, I remember pretty good. And if something comes back around that gives the lie to something told to me, then I start evaluating. Or if I see them lying to someone else, I start evaluating. And I also start watching. This becomes tiring. If every time someone's mouth moves, I have to weigh each and every word for truth, then it's not going to be very long before I decide they just aren't worth the hassle.

Refusal to answer or hedging around the subject is one thing, and somewhat understandable for me. Trust, after all, is a two way street. And I would worry more about some gal telling me how many squares of toilet paper she uses to wipe with on first acquaintance than just not choosing to answer at that point.
But, the words said should be true, or why bother?



Abandonment is a thing for me. Maybe it started from being tossed aside like a used condom or tampon at birth. Maybe it was my parents (I categorically refuse the term "adoptive parents" since they are my only parents) deciding I wasn't enough and bringing in another that everybody liked better. Maybe it was all the various girlfriends/lovers/fiances/submissives over the years that left (I only broke with one out of all of them). Maybe it was getting sick (Parkinson's) and watching everyone, friends and family, people I had been there for time and again pull away once I wasn't useful to them anymore. But, even as something firmly on the capitalized side of the slash, if someone is not there when I need them because they are too busy with someone else, then why should I break my back to be there for them? Why should I believe they will be if they never are? Why should I continue to make them my priority when I am not ever theirs? How can I count on them?



Don't get me wrong. Shit happens. Life happens. Work comes before play. Kids come before cum. Duty before pleasure. But, if I am an afterthought to everything every time, then that's just not going to cut it. And walking away, saying "I'm done" means we're done. And so is the damage. Even if you come back the next day and try to say, "I didn't mean it" you've shown me that you are not steadfast.



Violence... There is a difference, huge difference, between a playful tussle with bratty prey to get the blood pumping and lashing out with the full intent to harm me, whether it is physically or even just emotionally... No. I am not your masochist whipping toy. At one point, I would have stuck with just physically. But, I have learned, the hard way, that when someone knows your buttons and purposefully strikes them to cause harm... No. Just, no.



38 Special - Second Chance


However, everybody has a bad day. Everybody deserves a second chance. "Turn the other cheek" and all that. But, how many do you give? I've only got so many cheeks. And if they hit me on both the top ones, they can kiss right between the bottom ones. Each lie is a strike. Each abandonment is a strike. Lashing out with the intent to cause me harm (physically or emotionally) is an automatic two strikes (through someone else to get me is an automatic three). Once they accumulate three strikes, they are out. They are someone I used to know. They can come back as many times as they choose, but my trust has been shattered and they don't get what they had. How can I trust you aren't lying if you have shown you will? How can I trust you to stay if you have shown you won't? How can I trust you not to try to hurt me if you already have?



This holds true for friends. This holds true for lovers. This holds true for submissives. If I can't trust your honesty, that you will stand by me when I need to count on you, or that you will not attempt to do me harm, then what else matters? Is there anything else to integrity that can support the loss of one or more of these three?



The rest... I don't know. Telling tales outside of our confidence, for example, is kind of a grey area. I don't really have any secrets or anything. (Although I've learned the hard way to keep other people's secrets, even that I talk to them in private at all, much less what about.) I've got stuff I don't talk about to just anybody, sure. (Hard as it may be to believe.) And I might be disappointed if someone told something to someone that I didn't think was any of their business. But, I think that is a lot dependent on just how it is done. If they do it to hurt me, then we fall back on rule three. If they do it and don't tell the truth, then we fall back on rule one. Intent can matter, perhaps. But, the consequence of the action, the harm wrought is still the more important. Not, however, the big three. Intent matters not a whit there. Lying to protect me is still lying. Abandoning me to protect me is still abandoning me.



But, I don't know. I admit I'm really a pretty simple fellow. Perhaps even simplistic. Maybe there are other things that break trust for other people. And I've tried to be open and to honor those limits when I'm made aware of them, even if subconsciously I still slot them into one of my three for simplicity's sake. Even when they tromp all over mine, I just walk away without tromping on theirs on my way out. But, I don't see that as me abandoning them so much as salvaging myself from them abusing my trust.



Thoughts and comments are, as always, welcome. Whether you think I am too harsh or that I missed something that you think is a major breach of trust that couldn't be covered by these three. Even if you think I sound like a little candy-ass somewhere on the lower-cased side of the slash. (You would be wrong, but I would love to hear reasoned rational arguments.)



But, whatever row you feel you need to hoe, go out of your way to make yours (and your person's/people's) a good day.

Billy Joel - A Matter of Trust

Both you and Katie talked about what happens when trust is broken.
Three strikes seems very sporting and generous to me, but I can relate very much to the watching for further inconsistencies.
I guess for me it’s more that a fuck up doesn’t have to mean that I’ll break contact, but I will adjust accordingly. Like with a friend who is great fun, but I know that anything I tell her will be common knowledge. There is a filter in place when we hang out.
To me it ties in with that saying, ”when someone shows you who they are, believe them” but also with the fable about the scorpion and the frog, where the scorpion stings the frog to his own detriment because as he says, i”t’s in his nature”.

I guess I’m saying that trust is almost if not always within certain parameters for me.

 

[KatieDoes]

I've long thought that "trust" as used in the context of BDSM was mostly nonsense. People like to enhance the experience by pretending it's more dangerous than it really is and to that end, they feign concerns about trust. The real truth is, unless you scene with psychopaths or halfwits, you're not in much danger, but acknowledging that isn't sexy.

As far as relationship trust, I suppose it does take a little trust to expose your vulnerable side and tell things to which a negative reaction would hurt your feelings. And maybe there are things you could tell that would end a relationship if you told them on the first date, that wouldn't be such a big deal if told later on. Either way, if you're going to tell them, it's a roll of the dice on how the other person will react. It may not be a question of trust as much as it is of finding someone whose attitudes and beliefs work with your own, or make them accepting of your past experiences.

I'd also say that people tend to believe they are "normal" in how they feel and react. They think others will see and do things the same way. Honest people are more easily deceived because they expect others to be honest like they are. Dishonest people have a hard time believing others because they assume their own level of dishonesty is the norm.

In my experience, the people I've known who had "trust issues" were not very trustworthy themselves.

This is a very male perspective.

That’s obviously fine, and valid for you.… everyone has their own experiences and perspectives. But it’s very dismissive of women’s experiences and the way that we have to navigate the world for our own safety.

 

[jaF0]

Both you and

When people are stupid enough to quote a whole diatribe, it just reinforces my mantra.


Never.


Trust.


Anyone.


Ever.

 

[KatieDoes]

It's a realistic perspective that has nothing to do with male/female. Males and females are not natural enemies, despite the fact that many women are being conditioned to believe that.

It's not "dismissive." Saying it is, and pretending you are representative of women as a whole, are dismissive tactics used to allow you to avoid considering what was actually said.

You can hold that side order of "the way we (women) have to navigate the world for our own safety," too. Using appropriate caution to ensure one's physical safety is not even remotely similar to having "trust issues."

Most of the women I've known in my 59 years didn't seem to have trust issues. The few that did were nearly incapable of honesty, at least when it came to discussing their own actions, motives, and responsibility.

In the end, I believe it's best to just leave people like that, male or female, alone. A lifetime isn't enough to fix them if they don't realize they are their own problem - and no amount of reassurances or concessions will put their issues firmly in the past so a healthy relationship can be had.

Can they fix themselves? I believe so. But I've not run into one that was serious about doing it.

I didn’t say that men and women are ‘enemies’

What do you suppose it is that has conditioned women to believe that men can be a danger and they should be cautious of trusting them with their safety?

 

[emme8]

I've long thought that "trust" as used in the context of BDSM was mostly nonsense. People like to enhance the experience by pretending it's more dangerous than it really is and to that end, they feign concerns about trust. The real truth is, unless you scene with psychopaths or halfwits, you're not in much danger, but acknowledging that isn't sexy.

.

I think the trust is that you are not playing with a person who is a psychopath or halfwit. I think they are more common than we like to think. And even very intelligent people may act like a idiot under certain circumstances.
There's the trust the Top will stop before things go to far and the bottom will tell the Top to stop if needed. It is the ideal but things do go too far.
You have to trust the other person will take care of you if things go to far and for general aftercare.

 

[KatieDoes]

Despite several paragraphs of defensive distractive mansplaining bluster, it remains accurate that feeling as though the primary danger to trusting the wrong person would be hurt feelings is a uniquely cis male perspective.

While it’s unfortunate that very simple truth can’t be expressed here without being dismissed, it’s not unexpected.

It does remind me, yet again, how incredibly fortunate I am to have found a Dom that values women as people. His willingness to be patient and earn my implicit trust has allowed me a level of safety that frees me to be a complete and utter whore for him, without having to maintain my guard or hold back. For that, I am incredibly grateful.

 

[jaF0]

^^^ I trusted.

I was taught never to do it again.

 

[wicked woman]

I've long thought that "trust" as used in the context of BDSM was mostly nonsense. People like to enhance the experience by pretending it's more dangerous than it really is and to that end, they feign concerns about trust. The real truth is, unless you scene with psychopaths or halfwits, you're not in much danger, but acknowledging that isn't sexy.

I don't know. I think allowing yourself to be physically restrained, so you can't move, could be very dangerous and not just with psychopaths and halfwits. What if my partner has a heart attack and we're all alone? That would be dangerous for both of us.

It was so potentially dangerous to me that, even with a partner that I trusted, I refused to allow it without an adjustment, so that I would be able to free myself, if needed. I trusted my partner to listen to my concerns, to see the validity in them, and to make adjustments for them...all of which he did.

That's just one BDSM situation that I can think of that would put me/us in possible danger, that would require discussion and precautions to be taken.

Personally, I think your comment is flippant...but then maybe your definition of BDSM is different than mine.

 

[jaF0]

^^ There must always be an out. Always. That may mean leaving one hand free to release other bonds, or at least using light duty bonds that can easily be forced free.

 

[nvdrx]

Edit

Sorry, probably not relevant to the BDSM section ..

 

[emme8]

I don't know. I think allowing yourself to be physically restrained, so you can't move, could be very dangerous and not just with psychopaths and halfwits. What if my partner has a heart attack and we're all alone? That would be dangerous for both of
.

you are so correct. Now I have another thing to worry about.