Trans people seeking sexist objectification as validation

[Nudeslave83]

I think this is kind of a weird issue but I want to know if I am the only one who has had this thought. I consider myself to be transgender but in the closet about it. I am physically male in every way and I am not on hormones or transitioning or anything like that, although it is something that I would perhaps like in the future should I ever be more open about it.

On some level this thought feels wrong to me as though it goes against my deeply held feminist beliefs. One of my fantasies is in regards to being the sex that I identify as (female) is that I would love to be a truly voluptuous woman, but the thing that sort of clashes with my personal ideals is that as this voluptuous woman I would love to experience raging sexual objectification and general sexism towards me.

I should probably explain this further. I think that sexism and treating women as sex objects is wrong but if I were female like I desired I feel like it would feel validating to be treated in a sexist or sexual manner. Even though I consider my orientation to be lesbian I feel like I wouldn't mind the sexism or objectification from either sex.

I suppose this sounds weird but it reminds me of something a cisgendered female friend of mine told me. She is also a very strong feminist in her beliefs and believes that catcalling women and stuff like that is creepy and wrong but at the same time she feels like she is unattractive because nobody has ever cat called her. Again she realizes it's creepy and sexist but at the same time she feels like it is validating her as an attractive and desirable female to be cat called and the fact that she wasn't made her feel like maybe she was unattractive or undesirable because she has body dysmorphia.

I feel that body dysmorphia and being transgender have sort of an overlap to some degree in that they both involve you feeling uncomfortable in your own skin and with your own body. But what she said about the catcalling really spoke to me because I realize that I felt pretty much the same way, yes it's sexist and it's wrong, but at the same time it's extremely validating to a female identity to be treated like that.

For a person born male and who is rather reserved and something of a nerd and used to being taken seriously as a guy for my intellectual abilities, I feel like if I was suddenly a voluptuous female that people were treating me as a sex object it would feel validating of my new female identity. Again I realize that an entirely negative validation because being treated in a sexist manner is of course not a good thing, but at the same time it feels like I would be having experience that most women have had and that would feel validating in my identity as a woman, as a sexually desirable woman being looked at for my female body.

Again I realize that it sounds kind of ridiculous that I would take validation from being maybe treated as a lesser person simply because of my physical or sexual characteristics, but at the same time the thought of it really does kind of excite me. I would love to experienced going to bed tonight as the nerdy intellectual guy who people respect for their mind and take seriously to waking up tomorrow as a voluptuous sexpot who everybody is whistling and catcalling and calling the sugar tits and saying hey darling and staring at my breasts while I am trying to make a serious point.

Am I the only one here who has had these feelings or is there anyone else who can relate because I feel like I am sort of the odd person out here? I don't know if trans men would experience something similar as they would have sort of an opposite situation, but maybe they could relate as well. But I would be interested to hear from any other transgender people who might have had similar thoughts and feelings or perhaps experiences for those of you who have transitioned.

Going along with this I have other weird sort of fixations that I would like to experience such as experiencing various female inconveniences such as difficulties with clothing or having to wait in long lines for the bathroom. Again I realize these are lots of weird things but it does seem like that these weird little things and these experiences are in some subtle way validating myself in a female identity even if it is in a negative way.

 

[stickygirl]

Hi there NS83 and thanks for posting. You’re putting sexual harassment ( cat-calling ) in the same bucket as female validation and hoping something logical will pop out.

Being cat-called is never sexy. Whatever the man might think, he is expressing his patriarchal right to be abusive to a stranger and not just be accepted by bystanders, but to imagine his is bestowing a compliment. I’ve spoken to children who’ve been cat-called, pregnant women, lesbians, and trans women and none of them thought it was sexy. About the closest you get to that line of thought is the shakey, gallows humour where the woman, once in a safe space, might try to laugh it off with her friends as she sinks the offered glass of wine.

You need to distinguish between autogynephilia and gender dysphoria. Being a trans woman means you do normal stuff like go food shopping, or buy travel tickets in cash because your credit card is in your dead name still, or writing to your electricity supplier asking them for the tenth time to update your name on their database because their error can put you in danger. Once you get those things sorted out, then you need to work out if the cute guy making eyes at you knows you’re trans and is just a chaser or, if he’s genuine, how the fuck you’re going to tell him without getting beaten up. Mostly you stay home and learn to play guitar.

The fantasies you describe are just fine - I’ve got no problem with them - enjoy them. I hope I don't sound patronising because I do understand where you’re coming from - it used to confuse the hell of of me. Sexual energy is an intoxicating force that regularly screws up people’s logic.
If I may, I’d recommend doing some research and reading to help you tease fact from fiction. A good place to start would be Excluded by Julia Serano, who tackles feminism through the lens of being trans. Or the autobiographical book She's Not There by Jennifer Boylan is a good read, but there are plenty to choose from these days. Once you start to unravel your own feelings, then your sense of who you are and what you want will become clearer. Sex is easy - it’s life that’s the tricky bit. Good luck

 

[OpenMouth]

I wonder if you're maybe over thinking it a bit... We all like to enjoy our sexual fantasies and our behaviour reflects what excites us, nothing more. It's not an insult to women to want to act slutty and make cocks hard when you dress in sexy clothes.

 

[quietlylooking]

Not sure this is useful, but as a cis woman who spent much of her early years being somewhat pigeonholed as being an intellectual (and not a sexual object), I did find myself secretly craving that kind of attention (being treated as a sexual object) and being aroused by it when it happened. Cat-calling made me uncomfortable and sometimes even a bit threatened, but if I'm totally honest, it also made me feel desired in a certain way (even if the power dynamics behind it are complicated) which was something I secretly enjoyed.

And now that older (and I think still fairly attractive, but... older), I do secretly miss that kind of attention.

 

[stickygirl]

Not sure this is useful, but as a cis woman who spent much of her early years being somewhat pigeonholed as being an intellectual (and not a sexual object), I did find myself secretly craving that kind of attention (being treated as a sexual object) and being aroused by it when it happened. Cat-calling made me uncomfortable and sometimes even a bit threatened, but if I'm totally honest, it also made me feel desired in a certain way (even if the power dynamics behind it are complicated) which was something I secretly enjoyed.

And now that older (and I think still fairly attractive, but... older), I do secretly miss that kind of attention.

I wouldn't deny your feelings but I would its context. There are lots of men and women who fantasise about rape and we shouldn't deny them that either. The OP acknowledges that it is an idea, and a thrilling one and I recognise that. We just have to be careful that what we admit "in secret" becomes common knowledge, that when one woman admits that cat-calling somehow confirms her attractiveness, she opens the floodgates to all.
Am I referring to cat-calling or rape if someone says "Yea, she acted all offended on the outside, but actually she enjoyed it?" then it's a small step to "she deserved it". Then a step to the jury, as the defence puts the case that "if she wasn't looking for sex, why did she dress that way and get drunk?"
I realise this is leading the discussion away from the OPs post, but I think the issue of responsibility deserves discussion.

 

[dashie33]

I wonder if you're maybe over thinking it a bit... We all like to enjoy our sexual fantasies and our behaviour reflects what excites us, nothing more. It's not an insult to women to want to act slutty and make cocks hard when you dress in sexy clothes.

This. It's 2019. We can be everything we want to be. We can be smart, we can be slutty.

 

[Nudeslave83]

You need to distinguish between autogynephilia and gender dysphoria. Being a trans woman means you do normal stuff like go food shopping, or buy travel tickets in cash because your credit card is in your dead name still, or writing to your electricity supplier asking them for the tenth time to update your name on their database because their error can put you in danger. Once you get those things sorted out, then you need to work out if the cute guy making eyes at you knows you’re trans and is just a chaser or, if he’s genuine, how the fuck you’re going to tell him without getting beaten up. Mostly you stay home and learn to play guitar.

I know the difference between the two as I have read a bazillion books on transgender issues and I have realized that I have been transgender for at least 16 years now without taking any real action to resolve my issues. Personally I think that autogynephilia is something that people just created to try and dismiss transgender issues altogether.

As for the other things you mentioned I already pretty much stay at home all the time as I leave my house maybe less than once a week. I pretty much go to the movies alone once a week and that's about the extent to which I leave the house. I live in my father's attic and I am basically dependent upon him because I have severe anxiety and agoraphobia and I am not a normally functioning individual and I pretty much have no social contact with anyone at all. So sometimes I think that I should just transition since I am basically living at home and don't really have to deal with the public pretty much at all really so I'd be safe from harm by virtue of my lack of interaction with anyone outside my home.

The fantasies you describe are just fine - I’ve got no problem with them - enjoy them. I hope I don't sound patronising because I do understand where you’re coming from - it used to confuse the hell of of me. Sexual energy is an intoxicating force that regularly screws up people’s logic.
If I may, I’d recommend doing some research and reading to help you tease fact from fiction. A good place to start would be Excluded by Julia Serano, who tackles feminism through the lens of being trans. Or the autobiographical book She's Not There by Jennifer Boylan is a good read, but there are plenty to choose from these days. Once you start to unravel your own feelings, then your sense of who you are and what you want will become clearer. Sex is easy - it’s life that’s the tricky bit. Good luck

I pretty much have an entire library of transgender related books and I read the later book probably about 10 years ago. So trust me I know my identity but I do have lots of sexual issues outside of that because outside of the transgender issues I am sexually very abnormal and the fact that I'm a 35-year-old virgin who has never had any sexual experiences whatsoever certainly doesn't make things easier for me. I feel that if I were to transition it would probably be satisfying enough for me because pretty much all of my fantasies involve having a female body or having lesbian experiences. But I feel that if I were the correct gender that I probably would be satisfied with that and would not really have any desire for actual sex with other people.

As a person who has written probably 15 to 20 million words of Journal I have certainly sorted out my issues so I definitely know that I am transgender and it's not just any type of kink or anything like that but having a condition like that certainly influences your sexual interests and that just compounds the problems. I acknowledge that most of my sexual interests are probably not healthy seeing as most of my sexual fantasies involve degradation and humiliation of myself and BDSM themes in general.

So yes I realize the catcalling is not healthy just like my friend acknowledges that it's not healthy but the society that we live in people get validation even from negative things which is why I call stuff like this negative validation. Yes it's creepy to have somebody catcall you or something like that but in a strange and disturbing sense it's validating because if sexist creeps acknowledge you as a woman than it feels like you are passing effectively. The fact that people who don't know I am physically male assume I am female when talking to me and the fact that people who know me always sort of hinted at my lack of masculine qualities often make me feel I am validated because others perceive me the way I perceive myself.

My cisgendered friend who is a hard-core feminist also felt that her feminist beliefs conflicted with the fact that she had extreme issues with her appearance. She still thought the catcalling was creepy but at the same time she felt like the fact that nobody had ever cat called her was a sign that she was not attractive. Again it's sort of a disturbed and unhealthy logic but at the same time it's kind of hard to escape from it and that is where the conflict lies. It was from talking to her that I realized that I had similar attitudes. Obviously I wouldn't want to be treated with sexism or anything like that but in a strange sense it would be normal because I am experiencing a normal negative thing that most women experience.

Not sure this is useful, but as a cis woman who spent much of her early years being somewhat pigeonholed as being an intellectual (and not a sexual object), I did find myself secretly craving that kind of attention (being treated as a sexual object) and being aroused by it when it happened. Cat-calling made me uncomfortable and sometimes even a bit threatened, but if I'm totally honest, it also made me feel desired in a certain way (even if the power dynamics behind it are complicated) which was something I secretly enjoyed.

And now that older (and I think still fairly attractive, but... older), I do secretly miss that kind of attention.

I think that you get where I am coming from. As a 35-year-old male virgin who considers myself to be undesirable and who is physically repulsed by my own appearance the idea of seeking validation even if it was negative from other people is itself like a form of validation, again what I call negative validation. I think that most people around me view me as pretty much asexual and couldn't picture me actually having any type of sexual relations with other people, perhaps compounded by the fact that I have social skills that are lacking since I most likely have Asperger's syndrome.

But I think that the fantasy of being valued for my body is sort of like going against my outward appearance. I have pretty much lived my life as a very unhappy and physically unappealing male who feels completely uncomfortable in their own skin. So the idea of being a sexy and attractive woman is an exciting idea. Yes I certainly wouldn't really want to be judged solely for my body but at the same time having never been judged by my body before and having always been seen as a brain or an intellectual the idea of being able to let loose and just be sexy and be appreciated for my physical body would be really a good feeling.

This is sort of like that idea that people often fantasize about the opposite. Basically I am a shy reserved guy who never really lets loose probably on the large part due to the fact that I don't feel comfortable in my own skin. But I felt like if I were in the correct body, a sexy and attractive female body, I would feel like I could be myself for the first time, that I could let loose and enjoy myself, enjoy my physical body. It is sort of like the uptight person who secretly longs to just let loose with all their inhibitions. In my case it that I am a stoic and unhappy man who would like to be a carefree and happy female. It almost makes me think of the song "girls just wanna have fun" as I feel that there is nothing really fun about being a man but the idea of being a woman seems just so joyous to me. Even if I was an unattractive woman I would still feel much happier than I do now but I think that most people at some point in their life do fantasize about being sexy and being desired and pursued by the sex that they are attracted to.

But again at the same time I realized that is probably not a realistic fantasy either because if I was a really attractive woman it would mostly be men who were attracted to me and as a lesbian identified individual that wouldn't really be very appealing to me but at the same time it would still seem strangely validating because even if creepy straight men were the ones who were attracted to me it would still be because they view me physically and sexually as an attractive female.

 

[lonely_hubby60]

Not sure this is useful, but as a cis woman who spent much of her early years being somewhat pigeonholed as being an intellectual (and not a sexual object), I did find myself secretly craving that kind of attention (being treated as a sexual object) and being aroused by it when it happened. Cat-calling made me uncomfortable and sometimes even a bit threatened, but if I'm totally honest, it also made me feel desired in a certain way (even if the power dynamics behind it are complicated) which was something I secretly enjoyed.

And now that older (and I think still fairly attractive, but... older), I do secretly miss that kind of attention.

Can I ask you for a big favor, quietly looking? Create some space for me in your IN box, because I'd like to send you a PM. One about attention I'd like to convey to you. Or send me an e-mail address, if your PM box tends to fill up again fast.

Thank in advance!

 

[yukonnights]

I've read this thread with interest. My first thought for 'Nudeslave' is that many — if not most — of us have fantasies that we probably wouldn't actually want to live out. Personally, I feel your fantasy to have some rugged coarse men catcall you is 100% harmless. The fantasy has nothing to do with your acceptance or affirmation that such behavior is appropriate in the 'real world'. IMO, this is taking political correctness a notch or two too high.

I can fully empathize with how this "fantasy" takes you out of the everyday and into a dream world where happiness and wholeness resides. I say; better to at least have a few moments of such happiness in a fantasy than never have it at all.

I guess the bottom line for me is; Don't let a societal taboo spoil a fantasy.

I have both read and written stories with many social taboo elements. They get read and for the most part appreciated. It's escapism from reality.

I sincerely hope you can work up the courage to just follow you own convictions in regard to your gender identity. You implied that you suspect a lot of your reclusive tendencies are the result of not living an authentic life true to your inner voice. I don't think it necessary or even helpful for an introvert to try to change their entire personality in order to find companionship. Just one person, who no doubt, is looking for someone just like you is all you need to no longer be alone. If a full transition might give you the confidence to search for that person, perhaps there's not that much downside to moving forward?

I'm truly sorry for your sadness and loneliness and hope you find your answers very soon. Life can be quite a beautiful experience once we get things figured out. ~

PS: I just remembered something; stickygirl and I worked on a story together that has a main character just like you. A mtf transgender with same gender attractions (lesbian). Here's a link if you want to read it; April Can Be So foolish

 

[Nudeslave83]

I sincerely hope you can work up the courage to just follow you own convictions in regard to your gender identity. You implied that you suspect a lot of your reclusive tendencies are the result of not living an authentic life true to your inner voice. I don't think it necessary or even helpful for an introvert to try to change their entire personality in order to find companionship. Just one person, who no doubt, is looking for someone just like you is all you need to no longer be alone. If a full transition might give you the confidence to search for that person, perhaps there's not that much downside to moving forward?

I would really like to believe that someone is out there for me but after 35 years of searching and having no luck whatsoever finding anyone who lives nearby that I can really connect with I am pretty pessimistic. I basically have to find someone who doesn't mind that I have gender issues, have weird sexual tastes, am not really physically attractive and have limited social skills.

As far as transitioning goes I'm not really in the greatest position to do so as I am completely financially dependent on my father, I'm a barely functioning individual in society, have numerous psychological problems (outside of the gender issues) and have just generally chronically poor health in general so I probably wouldn't respond well to any type of surgery. I'm also very much in the closet about my issues and I really don't like being open about them off line and I don't know how the people around me would accept it. And especially given increasing the societal hostility towards transgender people I am just really pessimistic overall that I have any chance of a happy life. Just gotta hope I'm right about reincarnation, then maybe at least in my next life I'll be a really hot Japanese girl!