When you think of trans girls

[Escierto]

My sexuality has nothing to do with my gender.

Yes, indeed.

 

[liqueur]

Genderqueer, here. Totally masculine body, which I don't like, but I lived with it for so long before I came to understand genders that it feels fruitless to change it this late in life. Mentally/emotionally, I vibrate somewhere between feminine and masculine, but leaning more feminine direction

 

[stickygirl]

I have a female brain, i was born a girl with testicles and a penis and lived as a confused boy, not understanding why I liked dolls and dresses and wanted to be one of the girls.

I’m trans female and hid it for years, I masked my gender for fear of so many things. Since coming out I have been able to accept my gender and finally embrace it. I’ve been living as a female for many years now and I have one last step to take to what I class as womanhood.

For me cd, femboy, shemale, sissy etc were all sexual terms and I never classed them as a gender label. I’ve used them in a sexual context myself and I’ve had guys telling me they’re not gay but want to try a tranny or they’re not into cock but I look like a woman so it’s ok.

I’m bisexual and can’t imagine being tired of cock or pussy but I guess it happens. I never considered being trans the reason I was bi although when I came out I did get told I was obviously gay or a tranny or I probably never liked pussy and only got married to hide being a fag. Truth is I love sex whether it’s with a man or a woman. My sexuality has nothing to do with my gender.

^^ 100%
Well put Jakie

 

[stickygirl]

I have a female brain, i was born a girl with testicles and a penis and lived as a confused boy, not understanding why I liked dolls and dresses and wanted to be one of the girls.

I’m trans female and hid it for years, I masked my gender for fear of so many things. Since coming out I have been able to accept my gender and finally embrace it. I’ve been living as a female for many years now and I have one last step to take to what I class as womanhood.

For me cd, femboy, shemale, sissy etc were all sexual terms and I never classed them as a gender label. I’ve used them in a sexual context myself and I’ve had guys telling me they’re not gay but want to try a tranny or they’re not into cock but I look like a woman so it’s ok.

I’m bisexual and can’t imagine being tired of cock or pussy but I guess it happens. I never considered being trans the reason I was bi although when I came out I did get told I was obviously gay or a tranny or I probably never liked pussy and only got married to hide being a fag. Truth is I love sex whether it’s with a man or a woman. My sexuality has nothing to do with my gender.

I followed a similar route and officially came out after high school, though at home I had been myself for several years. I've had bottom surgery so for me to use male restrooms is laughable, and I won't. They can arrest me if they want.

I ran a MtF trans thread back in 2012, to be an open book to anyone with questions. It's still in the archives here at Lit. One innocent question regarding my transition was the head-scratching by some cis folks, who took a moment to join the dots: "So you've transitioned to a woman ... but you want to date women?!" It was kinda funny seeing their reactions. These days the question is never asked, so that's progress of a sort.

The sexuality/gender problem is where cis-folks still get tied in knots. They can't visualise the two being separate, so they view us as cheats trying to access women's spaces. ffs.

 

[stickygirl]

Interesting conversation in this thread.

For starters, I don't think crossdressers and trans are the same. I suppose in some cases that crossdressing could be a stop on the trans road map, but just looking around lit tells me that's not always the case, and doesn't even seem to be the majority.

Legit question, this is going to sound argumentative, I don't know another way to phrase it.

In today's world where we've updated the definition of gender, made the definition of man and woman unintelligible. Is there a such thing as "girl brain" or "boy brain"?

If gender is simply a set of socially constructed mannerisms associated with one biological sex or another, how could we identify a "brain type"?

CDs get to take their frock off and go to work as a man next day.

That's a fair question, but lets not make male/female gender into a binary - people are wonderfully diverse and we're fruit sundaes, not strawberry shakes. How boring it would be if men only reacted this way and women another, as though we had to follow a code. One can make assumptions based on a thousand different facets of our character and thinking but still be confounded.

 

[NuclearFairy]

In today's world where we've updated the definition of gender, made the definition of man and woman unintelligible. Is there a such thing as "girl brain" or "boy brain"?

I only know of one trans woman close to my inner circle, and I haven't seen her since she was like two (She's a cousin, and I have an insanely large family). So I can't speak on that side. But, I grew up with a trans man, and I watched two others grow up. (Childhood friend, my much younger brother, and my SO's nephew) and from what I've seen of them, yeah they've been boys from day one. There are differences between them and born men; They never had anyone telling them as children that something was too girly, so their interests are more varied. They never had anyone telling them to "Act like a man," so they're more open with their emotions. They have a better understanding of how much more effort a woman has to put into anything physical, so they get our almost instinctive fears better. But in every other mental way you'd never be able to tell the difference between them and a man who was born with a dick.

 

[Katecdpt]

To all who have replied to this thread, I love this conversation! I love open exchanges of thoughts and ideas without the need to get petty. We are all adults here. No need for bullying or shaming.
Let's keep this free flow of thoughts and ideas going.
Kate

 

[liqueur]

The sexuality/gender problem is where cis-folks still get tied in knots. They can't visualise the two being separate, so they view us as cheats trying to access women's spaces.

This! ↑ exactly this.

 

[Escierto]

There do seem to be differences in how "men" and "women" are wired that manifest themselves in their behavior.

When I am out walking, sometimes I will see someone off in the distance, too far to be able to tell if it's a man or a woman. However, if I watch closely how they move, how they hold their bodies, how they walk, I can nearly always tell if it's a man or a woman.

As I get close to them, I can tell if I was right which is nearly always the case. So what's going on there?

 

[Katecdpt]

"Society", what ever your definition of that term is, sets how a boy or girl is "supposed" to act. Unfortunately in today's "society", it is much easier and more accepted for females who blur that line than males. I have some very butch coworkers who are very welcome, accepted, not a big deal, etc. I'm quite sure males showing feminine traits would be so easily accepted. This sucks, but it is what it is. Society's norms do ebb and flow from time to time, but on its own time schedule.
Just my two cents worth.
Kate

 

[NuclearFairy]

What about them makes you say they were boys from day one?

That sounds like such a dickhead question, I can see it when I read it, but it's legit curiosity.

If boy and girl are just social constructs, what is it to be a boy or a girl?

Playing with trucks or dolls is just that, wearing dresses or pants is just that, they're clothes.

There's, in my opinion, nothing wrong with a boy playing with dolls or wearing pink, for thousands of years men wore what by today's standards would be considered dresses and skirts. Wigs, makeup, high heels, perfume were all normal mens wear a hundred and fifty years ago or so.

Girls can be aggressive, boys can be submissive.

So what is it.

And to the previous point we no longer view gender as a binary. So that adds a whole other level of complexity

It's the way they walk and talk, and how they interact with things. Oftentimes it's something really intangible that you can't put your finger on but you just know it.

For my friend it was always really obvious, when he sat his arms were wide open, and his smile was just well, masculine. Even when he wore a skirt and so had to keep his legs together, he didn't do it like a girl would, nor did he do it like someone with balls would, because he didn't have any yet. A girl would have her feet planted together and slightly under the chair, or one leg crossed over the other with the foot dangling. He always had his knees firmly pressed together with his feet wide apart. I never could understand why when we were kids, he'd just say doing it any other way felt weird.

My younger brother loves the Princess Tutu anime, but he doesn't love it the same way I do. Where I'm enthralled by the dancing and telling the main character not to love someone just for their looks, he's re-watching every episode to analyze it in detail and getting into deep philosophical discussions about the cat.

My SO's nephew, it's just he's always moved like a boy, and talked like a boy. It wasn't any one thing I could put my finger on, except maybe the way that he would sass his parents. His sister like most little girls would smirk and loudly correct them. Whereas like most boys he would roll his eyes and mutter the truth under his breath. It was to the point that when my SO and I were talking about him I'd often slip up and say him, because by that point, l know this song, I know this dance, so when he came out all I had to do was give my SO an, "I told you so," look, even though I'd never actually told him so.

 

[NuclearFairy]

What we have trouble getting our heads around is that (exaggerated for effect) a 6'5" 250 lb dude with a beard can suddenly put on a dress and it's OK that he showers with my daughter.

I would flip my shit if a grown assed woman was caught trying to shower with my daughter. :/ Doesn't matter her size or birth gender.

 

[Escierto]

I think anyone who looks at this photo can immediately tell if it's a man or a woman. Even from the back (and aside from the clothes), it's just a manifestation of femininity.

 

[NuclearFairy]

I wasn't talking about a small child daughter. More like a young woman, late teens and up.

that begs a new question. Are women's communal showers different than men's? Like at a gym. Men's communal showers are big open tiled rooms with multiple shower heads. Are women's different?

It's nothing to be showering at th gym rubbing elbows with a guy to the left or right.

But urinal etiquette does still apply, you leave a space if there's a space to leave.

Do women have a different setup?

If she's not an adult then what's she doing in the showers alone? I'll either be with her or she'll have a pack of friends. If she's an adult, she can make her own choices. I'll help her pick up the pieces if it goes poorly but she damn well better own those choices. Hopefully by the time she's an adult I'll have taught her that you never go anywhere alone.

But that's besides the point, no man would bother putting on a dress and claiming that they're a woman just to get into the women's shower. And any predators that want to do stuff in the shower won't bother with something like that.

So why should I tell a woman to go shower with the men? Where she'd be in more real danger than the hypothetical danger she might pose to the women around her. Because being gay or trans is dangerous, and it's easier to spot someone who is trans in the shower than someone who is gay.

 

[muycurioso]

I won't pretend I didn't know that was an inflammatory statement when I made it.

And I'll admit that I truly believe that 100% of trans women have absolutely no desire or interest in preying upon young girls or women.

I think you're naive to think a young woman will always be in a crowd, though good on you for teaching that.

I think you're naive to think sexual predators wouldn't exploit what they consider a loophole to get to their intended target.

I think you're correct in that sending transwomen to male locker rooms and bathrooms etc. Puts them at risk. Even if it's not physical harm, though it could get there.

I don't think it would be widespread, but 1 is too many.

Why can't we apply that same logic to women's locker rooms and bathrooms?

no group is 100% pure on anything

 

[stickygirl]

What we have trouble getting our heads around is that (exaggerated for effect) a 6'5" 250 lb dude with a beard can suddenly put on a dress and it's OK that he showers with my daughter.

Seriously? How likely is that? Is a 6'5" trans woman going to put other women through that? I'll answer for you, as you seem so contrary - 'no, she is not'.
Men already assault women, every day, They already invade women's spaces to do that, so why would they put on a dress to do that, when they can, and do, just stroll in? This is a case of victim blaming: it's men who are at fault not 0.6% of the population who are trans women and understand the insecurities of all women, to predatory men. Police the criminals, not the victims.

I won't pretend I didn't know that was an inflammatory statement when I made it.

And I'll admit that I truly believe that 100% of trans women have absolutely no desire or interest in preying upon young girls or women.

I think you're naive to think a young woman will always be in a crowd, though good on you for teaching that.

I think you're naive to think sexual predators wouldn't exploit what they consider a loophole to get to their intended target.

I think you're correct in that sending transwomen to male locker rooms and bathrooms etc. Puts them at risk. Even if it's not physical harm, though it could get there.

I don't think it would be widespread, but 1 is too many.

Why can't we apply that same logic to women's locker rooms and bathrooms?

One is too many?! How can you possibly fret over an imaginary assault when, on average, there are 463,634 victims (age 12 or older) of rape and sexual assault each year in the United States. Shame on you! Fix the real problem, teach your sons, stop blaming women.

To everyone else in this discussion, I apologise if the tone hit rock bottom. @Bimwm79 is intent on distorting facts with fiction, using platitudes like 'I truly believe' to make himself sound reasonable, then following it up with 'I think you're naive' to make his conjecture sound plausible. I've been around discussions like this often enough to recognise BS.

I'm so fucking done with providing counter argument to ridiculous falsehoods, with demands of 'prove me wrong'.

 

[subbyclarajane]

I brought that on myself, kinda figured it would happen. Should have kept my mouth shut. I was genuinely curious, and was pleasantly surprised that the conversation hadn't gone south, but knew it would.

This is how it goes, every time. Ask a question, get a response, dig deeper, get a response, dig a little deeper and rather than get a response and possibly a better understanding you get a bunch vitriol spewed your way, nothing that any of the text will support and then shunned as a bigot.

Ever wonder why the conversations never lead to understanding. You can stop wondering.

I never once victim blamed, I never once said men were innocent, infact I said Trans were 100% innocent while pointing out the predatory nature of some men.

Alas, I'll be your villain, it's easier this way

Feels like we lost our way here - I don’t think you’re a villain for trying to process the varied discourses you’ve encountered while here in the community. It’s a very frightening time for trans people, though, for a group of people that seem to mostly want to be ignored and not feel like shit. We’re definitely going to be on edge.

That said, thank you for introducing the conflict that seems to be most at hand. A conversation too one-sided is hard to learn from.

Re: girl brain boy brain - have you done any research? Have you seen the neuroscience?

Actually, never mind that. I think the better approach here is not to use science to prove gender divergence is real. People say ‘oh it’s a social construct’ but we do as a society have an agreement on what constitutes masculine and feminine personality traits, even allowing for edge cases and deviations. So, let’s use those as the benchmark for conversation.

When I was a kid, I had two standard male and female parents. But I didn’t like boys. I only played with girls. And I never did childhood role play as a boy - I always picked female roles. I remember my best friend Stephanie, upon my request to play house, ask, “okay but can I PLEASE be the mommy this time?” And I was so put out, but I ‘knew’ I was supposed to be the daddy. It just fit wrong, like an itchy sweater.

That experience expands and projects across my entire life, and it does for many trans women. We are DIFFERENT. And it’s not sexual.

When you look at the restroom issue, considering how unsafe we feel in a men’s room, how the most frighting ridicule I’ve ever received was in a men’s room, we can’t ignore the restroom thing. I dehydrate myself hours in advance before I leave the house for a long stretch or to fly somewhere.

Do you know how hard that is on my body? How much extra work that is? Just so I don’t have to use a restroom? Does that seem right?

 

[Flanast]

Obvious from all the different responses that your views depend on the individual and their experiences. Me, I know I’m a guy that likes to dress in what general society views as female clothes, makeup etc. I’m usually dressed as a man though and only dress up on occasion. So I might be referred to as a CD by many people. But I don’t really care what other people think. I love to dress up and meet others with similar interests, particularly men that like what I offer. It scary but exciting to go on in public as a CD and when I do I just hope for non sex bathrooms; but if not, I use my judgement based on the crowd.

 

[subbyclarajane]

Well, I only dress male when I’m trying to exploit male privilege, with a car mechanic or utility worker for example, and even then I get ma’amed at first. My skin and features and body are different. I have to do a lot more work to look male than to look female.

But when I was transitioning, I didn’t feel comfortable using a women’s room, because I didn’t want to make cis women uncomfortable. So I used the men’s. And that’s when I was hit on, called slurs, and threatened with physical violence.

In the men’s room.

Given the state of affairs, I’m terrified of using either restroom - men’s obviously, but also women’s because if I get clocked, will I be arrested?

The only time I use the ladies is when I’m taking my children to the bathroom. I have 6 and 2 year old daughters and a 4 year old son. And I’ll be DAMNED if I’m taking them into a men’s room. Any of them.

But I’ll tell you this - I would send my kids into a ladies restroom with a trans woman without worrying for a second they would be in danger.

You know what worries me? The boys that take them to prom someday.

What does that say about our society?

This restroom issue is a DISTRACTION.

 

[Flanast]

I think you always have to understand the room. There are asshomes everywhere in most situations. Sounds lien you’re on top of your game!!

 

[subbyclarajane]

I think you always have to understand the room. There are asshomes everywhere in most situations. Sounds lien you’re on top of your game!!

If I may ask you a follow up on the actual thread topic - and please feel free to decline if this is an insensitive question - do you identify as male, female, or an alternative?

For context, I’m of a mind CD means dressing other than the gender you identify as. But I don’t know if that’s actually true. My purpose is adjusting the taxonomy of these designations, where trans people dress as the gender they identify with, and CD people dress as the gender other than what they identify with.

(Could this place tomboys in the CD category? By definition, yeah probably but the cis tomboys I know aren’t trying to pass for male, so I don’t know. I’m just tying to learn).

 

[Flanast]

I identify as a bi man that likes to dress femm, particularly when I’m with other men sexually. No really sure about all the terms used in the lgbt+ community but if I were to take HRT therapy, developed breasts and presented myself as a woman everyday I might feel differently. I’m not there so don’t know.

 

[Escierto]

if I were to take HRT therapy, developed breasts and presented myself as a woman everyday I might feel differently.

Is that something you want to do? Or think about?

 

[liqueur]

- I don’t think you’re a villain for trying to process the varied discourses you’ve encountered while here in the community. It’s a very frightening time for trans people, though, for a group of people that seem to mostly want to be ignored and not feel like shit. We’re definitely going to be on edge.

Very well said. Thank you. I avoided the discourse yesterday because I could feel the fear and, yes, rage building inside me. And I didn't want to go there, and I didn't want to spray it all over everyone else. So again, thank you.

 

[Flanast]

Is that something you want to do? Or think about?

I only want to take that path if I can find a guy interested