Track Runner Hermaphodite?

[Handley_Page]

Actually, we are discussing the feasibility of declaring a woman not a woman, for the purposes of a sport.

Sorry, I thought I had separated the two cases.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Would it be inconsiderate, or politically incorrect, to suggest adding a "herm" category to the Olympics? That way they could come out of the closet and compete with each other, rather than competing with either a dominant or weaker gender, depending on which sex they had adopted.

I thought a saw a figure somewhere that one in one hundred babies is born with undetermined sexual orientation, but JBJ's link says 5 in 100.000. It would seem, at least in individual sports, that the numbers would support lively competition.

DEE ZIRE

AIS people come from the factory female in every respect but reproduction. Theyre immune to the effects of testosterone. They conform to the female stereotype. They marry males. No PMS, no periods, no hotflashes. They have no physical advantages over XX females.

 

[TxRad]

DEE ZIRE

AIS people come from the factory female in every respect but reproduction. Theyre immune to the effects of testosterone. They conform to the female stereotype. They marry males. No PMS, no periods, no hotflashes. They have no physical advantages over XX females.

If you will go back to the OP yoiu will see something about levels of testosterone three time the level of most females. Get on the right subject. AIS was not mentioned in any form.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

TEX

Uh, yes it was.

Check PENANDPAPER's mind drool. Por favor.

 

[Pure]

information

AIS information. the first site is intended for intersex individuals. I have included the hormonal info from the wiki article.

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

there is no 'written in stone' answer to 'who is a woman, for the purposes of professional 'women's' athletic competition?' i don't have info on the strength of AIS persons, but the insensitivity to testosterone suggests no advantage. THAT said, the wiki article discusses DEGREES of AIS, including partial. again, gray areas.

in terms of a hormonal definition of "woman for purposes of women's athletics" it's easy, *IF one wants to exclude AIS persons,* simply to say "a 'woman' must have testosterone (and DHT) levels within the usual range [low] for women."

IF one wanted to be more inclusive, then one might say:
a) testosterone low, UNLESS there is near total or total insensitivity, and b) estradiol somewhere in the usual range for females. [LH and FSH tend also to be in the female range; see below]

Hormone measurements in pubertal girls and women with CAIS and PAIS are similar, and are characterized by total testosterone levels in the upper male rather than female range, estradiol levels mildly elevated above the female range, mildly elevated LH levels, normal FSH levels, sex hormone binding globulin levels in the female range, and possibly mild elevation of AMH. DHT levels are in the normal male range in CAIS but reportedly in the lower male range in PAIS. Interpretation of hormone levels in infancy is more complex and cannot be as easily summarized for this article. Androgen receptor testing has become available commercially but is rarely needed for diagnosis of CAIS and PAIS.

Adult women with CAIS tend to be taller than average, primarily because of their later timing of puberty. Breast development is said to be average to above average. Lack of responsiveness to androgen prevents some usual female adult hair development, including pubic, axillary, upper lip. In contrast, head hair remains fuller than average, without recession of scalp or thinning with age. Shallowness of the vagina varies and may or may not lead to mechanical difficulties during coitus.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Remember the Russian woment's Olympic team that were fed massive amounts of male hormones 20 years ago? Today those women have debilitating ailments, shortened lives and sexual confusion.

If the South African runner does not have all of her sexual organs, does not have a penis and has not had hormone enhancements, then she is as welcome to compete as a woman as any other female. Without the hormonal interferance, this is all a non-argument and consists only of sour grapes.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Remember the Russian woment's Olympic team that were fed massive amounts of male hormones 20 years ago? Today those women have debilitating ailments, shortened lives and sexual confusion.

If the South African runner does not have all of her sexual organs, does not have a penis and has not had hormone enhancements, then she is as welcome to compete as a woman as any other female. Without the hormonal interferance, this is all a non-argument and consists only of sour grapes.

But Jenny, for certain individuals here, sour grapes is what life is all about!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Can I take this another way, a bit less anatomically analytical.

Caster Semenya can run rings round all female 800m runners but her times are pretty sub-standard when compared with top-rank male athletes. All her life she has considered herself female and no-one has a shred of real evidence otherwise.

How guys I respect here can get into some prurient and totally uninformed debate about the physiology of an 18-year-old girl from an impoverished village surprises me.

From Russian shot-putters through the Williams sisters and Navratilova, we have lived with an (mainly male-dominated press) attack on 'athletic' female sports stars.

All the barrack room lawyer definitions here about what constitutes a real woman are banal. I am not of the school to say 'you are what you feel' but I would argue with our increasing scientific knowledge we are finding gender differentiation more challenging.

My total support, and I hope yours, goes out to a young girl caught in a maelstrom of malicious and commercial attacks that must hurt her deeply and question her faith in herself.

If a half of what's spread by the gutter press is true, she must have her own demons. Can't we on Lit be a bit supportive?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Can I take this another way, a bit less anatomically analytical.

Caster Semenya can run rings round all female 800m runners but her times are pretty sub-standard when compared with top-rank male athletes. All her life she has considered herself female and no-one has a shred of real evidence otherwise.

How guys I respect here can get into some prurient and totally uninformed debate about the physiology of an 18-year-old girl from an impoverished village surprises me.

From Russian shot-putters through the Williams sisters and Navratilova, we have lived with an (mainly male-dominated press) attack on 'athletic' female sports stars.

All the barrack room lawyer definitions here about what constitutes a real woman are banal. I am not of the school to say 'you are what you feel' but I would argue with our increasing scientific knowledge we are finding gender differentiation more challenging.

My total support, and I hope yours, goes out to a young girl caught in a maelstrom of malicious and commercial attacks that must hurt her deeply and question her faith in herself.

If a half of what's spread by the gutter press is true, she must have her own demons. Can't we on Lit be a bit supportive?

Its no big deal unless youre a bonafide female athlete who's forced to now compete with carnival freaks. Check her 46th chromosome, if its 'xy' she plays with the boys.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Its no big deal unless youre a bonafide female athlete who's forced to now compete with carnival freaks. Check her 46th chromosome, if its 'xy' she plays with the boys.

I think that remains to be seen, James. I can wait for the final outcome.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Can I take this another way, a bit less anatomically analytical.

Caster Semenya can run rings round all female 800m runners but her times are pretty sub-standard when compared with top-rank male athletes. All her life she has considered herself female and no-one has a shred of real evidence otherwise.

How guys I respect here can get into some prurient and totally uninformed debate about the physiology of an 18-year-old girl from an impoverished village surprises me.

From Russian shot-putters through the Williams sisters and Navratilova, we have lived with an (mainly male-dominated press) attack on 'athletic' female sports stars.

All the barrack room lawyer definitions here about what constitutes a real woman are banal. I am not of the school to say 'you are what you feel' but I would argue with our increasing scientific knowledge we are finding gender differentiation more challenging.

My total support, and I hope yours, goes out to a young girl caught in a maelstrom of malicious and commercial attacks that must hurt her deeply and question her faith in herself.

If a half of what's spread by the gutter press is true, she must have her own demons. Can't we on Lit be a bit supportive?

After all, her entire country has come to her defense. Why can't we?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AIS information. the first site is intended for intersex individuals. I have included the hormonal info from the wiki article.

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions/ais

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

there is no 'written in stone' answer to 'who is a woman, for the purposes of professional 'women's' athletic competition?' i don't have info on the strength of AIS persons, but the insensitivity to testosterone suggests no advantage. THAT said, the wiki article discusses DEGREES of AIS, including partial. again, gray areas.

in terms of a hormonal definition of "woman for purposes of women's athletics" it's easy, *IF one wants to exclude AIS persons,* simply to say "a 'woman' must have testosterone (and DHT) levels within the usual range [low] for women."

IF one wanted to be more inclusive, then one might say:
a) testosterone low, UNLESS there is near total or total insensitivity, and b) estradiol somewhere in the usual range for females. [LH and FSH tend also to be in the female range; see below]

Hormone measurements in pubertal girls and women with CAIS and PAIS are similar, and are characterized by total testosterone levels in the upper male rather than female range, estradiol levels mildly elevated above the female range, mildly elevated LH levels, normal FSH levels, sex hormone binding globulin levels in the female range, and possibly mild elevation of AMH. DHT levels are in the normal male range in CAIS but reportedly in the lower male range in PAIS. Interpretation of hormone levels in infancy is more complex and cannot be as easily summarized for this article. Androgen receptor testing has become available commercially but is rarely needed for diagnosis of CAIS and PAIS.

Adult women with CAIS tend to be taller than average, primarily because of their later timing of puberty. Breast development is said to be average to above average. Lack of responsiveness to androgen prevents some usual female adult hair development, including pubic, axillary, upper lip. In contrast, head hair remains fuller than average, without recession of scalp or thinning with age. Shallowness of the vagina varies and may or may not lead to mechanical difficulties during coitus.

Jan? Youre not being fitted for a leisure suit, you dont get to alter the material until you find something you like. There will always be two-headed snakes and three-headed babies, but not very many.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The subject is so exciting to jimmybob, isn't it?

 

[elfin_odalisque]

After all, her entire country has come to her defense. Why can't we?

VM, I've always liked you, now I love you. Shame you're hitched up.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

VM, I've always liked you, now I love you. Shme you're hitched up.

True, but I believe in hippie communes . . . http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/horny.gif

 

[elfin_odalisque]

True, but I believe in hippie communes . . . http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/horny.gif

Love the cuddly stuff and your comment at the top of this thread is a great summation.

Furry and sage - pow!

 

[3113]

If a half of what's spread by the gutter press is true, she must have her own demons. Can't we on Lit be a bit supportive?

I like your take on this, but what makes you say that we haven't been supportive (obvious exceptions excepted, of course?)

 

[Verdad]

Can I take this another way, a bit less anatomically analytical.

Caster Semenya can run rings round all female 800m runners but her times are pretty sub-standard when compared with top-rank male athletes. All her life she has considered herself female and no-one has a shred of real evidence otherwise.

How guys I respect here can get into some prurient and totally uninformed debate about the physiology of an 18-year-old girl from an impoverished village surprises me.

From Russian shot-putters through the Williams sisters and Navratilova, we have lived with an (mainly male-dominated press) attack on 'athletic' female sports stars.

All the barrack room lawyer definitions here about what constitutes a real woman are banal. I am not of the school to say 'you are what you feel' but I would argue with our increasing scientific knowledge we are finding gender differentiation more challenging.

My total support, and I hope yours, goes out to a young girl caught in a maelstrom of malicious and commercial attacks that must hurt her deeply and question her faith in herself.

If a half of what's spread by the gutter press is true, she must have her own demons. Can't we on Lit be a bit supportive?

I may have spoken with insufficient clarity, so I'll try to repeat once again: The question I would wish to see settled wasn't, "What constitutes a woman?" It was, "What constitutes an unfair advantage?" I don't see it as a question with deep ramifications for our understanding of sex/gender. I see it as a practical question about the rules of a game.

As for Semenya in particular, I too think the press is acting reprehensibly, and not for the first time. My sympathies are with her, regardless of the outcome. The sports authorities are still stuck with the question, though, and the harassment of 'suspect' female athletes by the press seems that much likelier to continue until there's consensus about the guidelines.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I would think you'll find a lot of female atheletes have high T levels. Kinda goes with the territory.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

I may have spoken with insufficient clarity, so I'll try to repeat once again: The question I would wish to see settled wasn't, "What constitutes a woman?" It was, "What constitutes an unfair advantage?" I don't see it as a question with deep ramifications for our understanding of sex/gender. I see it as a practical question about the rules of a game.

As for Semenya in particular, I too think the press is acting reprehensibly, and not for the first time. My sympathies are with her, regardless of the outcome. The sports authorities are still stuck with the question, though, and the harassment of 'suspect' female athletes by the press seems that much likelier to continue until there's consensus about the guidelines.

Sorry, perhaps I just lashed out.

I agree totally. The appropriate authority sets out the rules of the game and I can live with that.

There's just a sour smell of vested commercial interests about the attacks on Caster.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I would think you'll find a lot of female atheletes have high T levels. Kinda goes with the territory.

Well, sure. That makes for greater muscle mass. How else is a woman supposed to become a world-class athlete? And doesn't it include increased libido? HM was a lifeguard and gymnast when I met her . . . http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/horny.gif

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

WHAT CONSTITUTES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE is simple to answer. IS THERE A POPULATION OF COMPARABLE FEMALE PLAYERS?

If you distribute the best 10% of all female players, is the freak's position skewed off the chart?

 

[R. Richard]

I would think you'll find a lot of female atheletes have high T levels. Kinda goes with the territory.

Back in the 1980s, the East German women had very high levels of Testosterone. Said levels came from shots they took. They won championshipsand Olympic gold medals. The survivors now mostly have very bad health problems.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Back in the 1980s, the East German women had very high levels of Testosterone. Said levels came from shots they took. They won championshipsand Olympic gold medals. The survivors now mostly have very bad health problems.

yes, that's a problem with testosterone in general, even for those who get it naturally.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

yes, that's a problem with testosterone in general, even for those who get it naturally.

It wasn't just testosterone that the E. German women were being injected with. There was an entire cocktail of drugs that no one with any care for their own body would deliberately take. Those poor women were pawns of the Communist Party, rounds of discardable ammunition in the Cold War. In a couple of cases, the parents saw what was happening to their girls and jerked them right out of the program. Others were more passively obedient.

I seriously doubt that any woman, no matter how naturally 'high-T', ever attained the levels the East Germans reached.