Track Runner Hermaphodite?

[penandpaper]

The test is moot until they come up with the perimeters of what constitutes a female in professional track, or any sport for that matter. You can't rely on a chromosome test because some women test as a male, yet still are able to give birth (androgen insensitivity syndrome). These women produce much higher levels of testosterone. Then there are body part tests; however we know that's not conclusive for many reasons. There may be biological functions they could use to try and determine, but even those are vague and circumstantial.

Hence, my point is it doesn't matter until they post guidelines as to what it means to be female. Which, by the way, could have a much greater impact on life, not just sports.

 

[Verdad]

The test is moot until they come up with the perimeters of what constitutes a female in professional track, or any sport for that matter. You can't rely on a chromosome test because some women test as a male, yet still are able to give birth (androgen insensitivity syndrome). These women produce much higher levels of testosterone. Then there are body part tests; however we know that's not conclusive for many reasons. There may be biological functions they could use to try and determine, but even those are vague and circumstantial.

Hence, my point is it doesn't matter until they post guidelines as to what it means to be female. Which, by the way, could have a much greater impact on life, not just sports.

That's where I was heading with the question, too. However, I disagree it would have to have impact outside of professional sports. The criteria need to be established for the purpose of participation in competitive sports, but they can't be universal criteria. They can't be used to dictate to intersexed people what they should choose as their identity.

In other words, I've no problem with, "If you don't fit a, b, c, you can't compete in female league." I do have a problem with, "If you don't fit a, b, c, you can't be of the sex you feel you are."

 

[voluptuary_manque]

A tip of the Panama to Peggy Orenstein. That was a very insightful and well-written piece. Congrats to Les for posting it.

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

A tip of the Panama to Peggy Orenstein. That was a very insightful and well-written piece. Congrats to Les for posting it.

 

[lance gt]

There in lies the rub of the question. No matter what tests they conduct, no matter if she has both genitalia. or her chemical composition. If they try to come up with parameters to determine if she's female or not, what's going to happen if another woman shows up with something else that causes a debate to her gender, that wasn't put forth in their original determination. Nature provides us with such a diversity of constructive make ups, it's just now we are coming into the light, that these people exist in our world. If Semanya relates to life as a woman and has the essentials of that make up, she should be considered as woman and allowed to compete.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's where I was heading with the question, too. However, I disagree it would have to have impact outside of professional sports. The criteria need to be established for the purpose of participation in competitive sports, but they can't be universal criteria. They can't be used to dictate to intersexed people what they should choose as their identity.

In other words, I've no problem with, "If you don't fit a, b, c, you can't compete in female league." I do have a problem with, "If you don't fit a, b, c, you can't be of the sex you feel you are."

Way back in the nineties I got saddled with Dungeon Mistress duties for the international leatherwoman's convention which was happening in Chicago. Before each evenings parties of course, I was the source for tickets, and a sweet and shy young thing came up to me, and said that she was a pre-op transsexual, and would she be allowed to go to the all-woman's party?

I trotted out the basic definition as you've put it here--"If you can't put your dick in a drawer and walk away from it, you're not a woman."

She nodded and walked away, on the verge of tears. She was acting like a girl-- no bluster, no shouts, no demands.

I grabbed a handy runner to go tell her to come back-- sold her her ticket.

I played with her that night, and she was so happy and delighted to be accepted as part of her community-- and get her little buns beaten-- and I felt like a moral person. Not to mention we both got our rocks the hell off.

I'm sure there are many ways in which Semenaya's situation and my little transwoman's are different-- but if she is not a man, and she is not allowed to compete as a woman, what will she do with her gift?

Semenaya is not only a woman, she's a woman who is very good at running. She's in danger of losing a primary aspect of her identity.

 

[ishtat]

Whatever ones opinion on the "facts," in this instance it may be worthwhile to note that the only so called original source for all these stories is the Sydney Daily Telegraph . The DT has only been able to say that the story originated from anonymous and reliable sources.

The DT is our local tabloid rag and as a source I wouldn't trust the date at the top of the masthead.

The DT decided to run the story knowng :-

1 The tests were incomplete.
2 Without telling the woman concerned.
3 Knowing they were publishing material which if accurate breached local privacy laws regarding medical issues or if inaccurate knowing they would be sued.

Thus far the real issue to me is that this is a nasty piece of gutter journalism and whatever full facts are eventually reported this athlete will never recover from this half baked smear.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Thank you, Ishtat, i did not know that.

 

[Verdad]

Way back in the nineties I got saddled with Dungeon Mistress duties for the international leatherwoman's convention which was happening in Chicago. Before each evenings parties of course, I was the source for tickets, and a sweet and shy young thing came up to me, and said that she was a pre-op transsexual, and would she be allowed to go to the all-woman's party?

I trotted out the basic definition as you've put it here--"If you can't put your dick in a drawer and walk away from it, you're not a woman."

She nodded and walked away, on the verge of tears. She was acting like a girl-- no bluster, no shouts, no demands.

I grabbed a handy runner to go tell her to come back-- sold her her ticket.

I played with her that night, and she was so happy and delighted to be accepted as part of her community-- and get her little buns beaten-- and I felt like a moral person. Not to mention we both got our rocks the hell off.

I'm sure there are many ways in which Semenaya's situation and my little transwoman's are different-- but if she is not a man, and she is not allowed to compete as a woman, what will she do with her gift?

Semenaya is not only a woman, she's a woman who is very good at running. She's in danger of losing a primary aspect of her identity.

I agree with you completely, so far as your story goes, and so far as sympathy for Semenaya goes. Note that I said criteria could be established for a particular purpose only, such as participating in sports, but not absolutely. With people who are mixed already on the biological level, there is no easy way of saying 'what' they are, and that's leaving psychology aside. The criteria couldn't be other than arbitrary and tied to a particular purpose.

So long as there are male and female sports, though, how do we draw the lines? I'm not at all pretending it's an easy question, and I'm never for a minute forgetting it's a tragedy for a person like Semenaya. To be gifted with an extraordinary gift like hers and then curtailed from practicing it amounts to nothing less than cruelty. What about other female athletes, though, equally gifted and dedicated, but without the testosterone edge of Semenaya's?

What about the possibility of dishonesty, too? If we forfeit objective criteria and let the matter be decided by how a person declares, what stops male athletes for slapping on some lipstick, telling a boo-hoo story of how they'd always felt female inside, and enlisting in female competitions? Admittedly, that seems like a bit of a far shot, but it seems like the ultimate conclusion of abandoning objective measures.

A case like this makes me torn, like I think it does everyone, but what is the fair solution that wouldn't make mockery of the majority of female athletes?

ETA: Oh. So it's a fishy story? Ugly in extreme, in that case.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The test is moot until they come up with the perimeters of what constitutes a female in professional track, or any sport for that matter. You can't rely on a chromosome test because some women test as a male, yet still are able to give birth (androgen insensitivity syndrome). These women produce much higher levels of testosterone. Then there are body part tests; however we know that's not conclusive for many reasons. There may be biological functions they could use to try and determine, but even those are vague and circumstantial.

Hence, my point is it doesn't matter until they post guidelines as to what it means to be female. Which, by the way, could have a much greater impact on life, not just sports.

THIS IS NONSENSE. AIS MALES HAVE NO UTERUS OR OVARIES, CONSEQUENTLY THEY DO NOT MENSTRUATE OR OVULATE. THEY INHERIT FROM THEIR MOTHERS A DEFECTIVE GENE THAT RENDERS THEM UNABLE TO USE ANDROGENIC HORMONES, NAMELY TESTOSTERONE. SO THEIR SECONDARY SEXUAL CHARACTERISTICS ARE FEMALE, VIZ. TITS AND VULVA. THE VAGINAL VAULT IS GENERALLY TOO SHALLOW FOR COITUS, AND ITS SURGICALLY EXTENDED.

PENANDPAPER youre a fucking halfwit. Do your goddamned homework.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"pre-op transsexual" has a very specific meaning, you know. It refers to some major bodily changes-- nothing like "slapping on some lipstick and saying he's always felt like a woman inside."

It just means she hasn't gone under the actual surgeon's knife yet.

What man would want to take Estrogen daily, grow breasts, lose muscle mass, lung capacity, his adams apple, and the erectile functionality of his willy purely for the sake of competing in a female sports division? And how do you think he'd do, for that matter...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The test is moot until they come up with the perimeters of what constitutes a female in professional track, or any sport for that matter. You can't rely on a chromosome test because some women test as a male, yet still are able to give birth (androgen insensitivity syndrome). These women produce much higher levels of testosterone. Then there are body part tests; however we know that's not conclusive for many reasons. There may be biological functions they could use to try and determine, but even those are vague and circumstantial.

Hence, my point is it doesn't matter until they post guidelines as to what it means to be female. Which, by the way, could have a much greater impact on life, not just sports.

OKAY RETARDO, I DID YOUR HOMEWORK FOR YOU.
http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition=androgeninsensitivitysyndrome

WHEN YOU POST SHIT ALL YOU DO IS CREATE MORE IGNORANCE AND CONFUSION.

 

[impressive]

Gender aside, can I just say ? Holy hell, I had an intense reaction to her photo. Yummmmmmm.

 

[Verdad]

"pre-op transsexual" has a very specific meaning, you know. It refers to some major bodily changes-- nothing like "slapping on some lipstick and saying he's always felt like a woman inside."

It just means she hasn't gone under the actual surgeon's knife yet.

What man would want to take Estrogen daily, grow breasts, lose muscle mass, lung capacity, his adams apple, and the erectile functionality of his willy purely for the sake of competing in a female sports division? And how do you think he'd do, for that matter...

I can only repeat, I have no problem with fluid boundaries, for most any purpose. That's a question of individual freedom. The whole point of separating male and female competitions, though, is to give women, as physically weaker on the average, a fair chance to excel. Stretching the boundaries of femaleness, in this particular context, seems to me to hurt women.

 

[Handley_Page]

Hence, my point is it doesn't matter until they post guidelines as to what it means to be female. Which, by the way, could have a much greater impact on life, not just sports.

In this case, however, we are discussing the chances that a "suspect" female is given a biological advantage in a sport. The wider issues of the "problem" are a different matter.

 

[Stella_Omega]

In this case, however, we are discussing the chances that a "suspect" female is given a biological advantage in a sport. The wider issues of the "problem" are a different matter.

Actually, we are discussing the feasibility of declaring a woman not a woman, for the purposes of a sport.

 

[3113]

What about the possibility of dishonesty, too? If we forfeit objective criteria and let the matter be decided by how a person declares, what stops male athletes for slapping on some lipstick, telling a boo-hoo story of how they'd always felt female inside, and enlisting in female competitions?

I'd SO watch those races! Especially if the guys had to run while wearing lipstick and sports bras...

 

[Verdad]

I'd SO watch those races! Especially if the guys had to run while wearing lipstick and sports bras...

But no jockstraps!

 

[Stella_Omega]

But no jockstraps!

those poor bastards...

 

[3113]

this is a nasty piece of gutter journalism and whatever full facts are eventually reported this athlete will never recover from this half baked smear.

I grant you all this and agree without reservation, but I think it's a separate issue (i.e., the issue of whether newspapers should be allowed to report such things, etc.). Because even if DT has printed nothing but lies and smears--yet Semenya was tested.

So this means that whether she is or is not a hermaphrodite, the AAFI at least imagines that the issue of a hermaphrodite athlete could come up (and why not?) and that they'd have to consider what to do about it if it did.

The story presented by this paper is, as you say, reprehensible and I hope someone slams them for it (if they can be slammed) on all the counts that you name. But it doesn't erase the question that testing Semenya raises--no matter what the tests eventually show. Which is where does a hermaphrodite fit into sports? And if she/he has already participated in sports and succeeded, how should her/his physical make-up be regarded? As an unfair advantage?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

But no jockstraps!

The Greeks managed it. BTW, the Spartans had a set of games just for their women. They competed naked, too. Sadly, the same prurient rules applied as in the men's games. No spectators of the opposite sex.

 

[penandpaper]

Actually, we are discussing the feasibility of declaring a woman not a woman, for the purposes of a sport.

Exactly. Thank you for stating what I was thinking more clearly.

 

[penandpaper]

THIS IS NONSENSE. AIS MALES HAVE NO UTERUS OR OVARIES, CONSEQUENTLY THEY DO NOT MENSTRUATE OR OVULATE. THEY INHERIT FROM THEIR MOTHERS A DEFECTIVE GENE THAT RENDERS THEM UNABLE TO USE ANDROGENIC HORMONES, NAMELY TESTOSTERONE. SO THEIR SECONDARY SEXUAL CHARACTERISTICS ARE FEMALE, VIZ. TITS AND VULVA. THE VAGINAL VAULT IS GENERALLY TOO SHALLOW FOR COITUS, AND ITS SURGICALLY EXTENDED.

PENANDPAPER youre a fucking halfwit. Do your goddamned homework.

So you're saying if she has a vagina let her compete. Ok. I'm fine with that. It'll save the money for the tests and her embarrassment.

 

[DeeZire]

Would it be inconsiderate, or politically incorrect, to suggest adding a "herm" category to the Olympics? That way they could come out of the closet and compete with each other, rather than competing with either a dominant or weaker gender, depending on which sex they had adopted.

I thought a saw a figure somewhere that one in one hundred babies is born with undetermined sexual orientation, but JBJ's link says 5 in 100.000. It would seem, at least in individual sports, that the numbers would support lively competition.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

So you're saying if she has a vagina let her compete. Ok. I'm fine with that. It'll save the money for the tests and her embarrassment.

I'm saying youre the Missing Link.