Torture & BDSM

[CutieMouse]

I've been reading some rather fascinating [enlightening] older News Groups the last few days (archived posts going back to '96 or so), and while weeding through the spam is a bit annoying, it's intersting (on oh so many levels) to see the development of political correctness with regards to "Safe/Sane/Consensual" as the years progress.

Sooo... is "torture" a bit taboo in the 21st century? There are plenty of resources for spanking/flogging/kneeling/etc, but over the last few days I've read ideas and technical details of how to introduce XYZ, that could not be described by any other word than [exquisite] torture... I've read a lot- I have a collection of kink books that take up a full shelf, follow several chat boards, have attended munches, etc- but I wonder if there hasn't been a downshift (and some loss of knowledge) due to the development of political correctness in kink-land. Thoughts?

 

[catalina_francisco]

More than likely you are right. There is a definite majority who frown on anything resembling torture or anything other than soft, 'not to hurty' SM and feel everyone should think the same. We have had countless PM's about our own brand of SM and D/s, not to mention some of our stories, chastising us for not promoting what they think of as SSC and practising what they think of as barbaric acts, usually those that result in anything more than a light mark for a half hour or so, definately not supportive of anything which draws blood, even a drop. Fortunately I don't let it bother me too much, especially when it is obvious some of them have no practical experience and often little knowledge of anything to do with BDSM and all thnigs related.

Catalina

 

[the captians wench]

More than likely you are right. There is a definite majority who frown on anything resembling torture or anything other than soft, 'not to hurty' SM and feel everyone should think the same. We have had countless PM's about our own brand of SM and D/s, not to mention some of our stories, chastising us for not promoting what they think of as SSC and practising what they think of as barbaric acts, usually those that result in anything more than a light mark for a half hour or so, definately not supportive of anything which draws blood, even a drop. Fortunately I don't let it bother me too much, especially when it is obvious some of them have no practical experience and often little knowledge of anything to do with BDSM and all thnigs related.

Catalina

A light mark for half an hour? Well that hardly seems worth the effort.

 

[graceanne]

I definately think that 'torture' is taboo in the 20th century. I also have to agree with cat that probably a lot (read: not ALL, so don't jump my ass) of peole who object to it don't have a lot of r/l experience. I personally don't go for it, and I know when I first started being interested in BDSM that I was totally against it, and totally for SSC, but these days I prefer RACK. *shrugs*

 

[CutieMouse]

The frustrating thing to me, is the loss of knowledge, due to a distate for "torture".

Example:

There was a thread here a while ago about nailing a breast to a board. I was firmly in the camp that doing such a thing is way too risky (particulary for a woman who might want to have children/breastfeed someday), and I couldn't image how to minimize the risks of infection/scarring/damage. I believe the overall consensus was that it wasn't a wise thing to do.

There was a post to the NG I was reading, in which someone wanted to know how to nail a breat to a board (I believe they then wanted the board nailed to a wall, and then be flogged). Alongside the precautions/this is not a wise thing to do in any way/shape/form, were detailed suggestions for which types of nails were least likely to cause problems (of the very bad kind), how to autoclave/boil/sterilize the nails, what sort of board could be used, how to sterilize the board, the breast, the hammer (what sort of hammer to use), and that nailing the board to the wall, then flogging the woman would probably increase the risk of tissue damage beyond an "acceptable" point, so an alternative was offered to allow for a similar experience while minimizing some of the risk. Suggestings for aftercare of the breasts was also brought up.

Do I still consider nailing a breast to a board to be unsafe? Yes. Do I now believe that with enough preperation the risks could be reduced to a tolerable level? Yes. Would I want it done to me? I seriously doubt it.

Reading that post added a little bit of kink-based safety knowledge to my personal knowledge of the breast, which means the next time that subject comes up, I can offer a more educated opinion... something that I'm not sure would have occured in the current PC-friendly/torture is bad environment. Or maybe it's still out there, and I've just not been looking hard enough?

 

[graceanne]

hehe You know curiousity killed the cat.

I have to agree with you here, I would have been very interested in that conversation. Under no circumstances do I, at this point in my life, want my breast nailed to the board, but frankly I don't want to do a lot of things that I still pay attention to discussions on, just so I know the answer. hehe

 

[intothewoods]

I've been reading some rather fascinating [enlightening] older News Groups the last few days (archived posts going back to '96 or so), and while weeding through the spam is a bit annoying, it's intersting (on oh so many levels) to see the development of political correctness with regards to "Safe/Sane/Consensual" as the years progress.

Um, I feel like I need some more examples. Not for me of course. I would never allow myself to be tortured!

No, seriously, post some more! Um, please?

Sooo... is "torture" a bit taboo in the 21st century? There are plenty of resources for spanking/flogging/kneeling/etc, but over the last few days I've read ideas and technical details of how to introduce XYZ, that could not be described by any other word than [exquisite] torture... I've read a lot- I have a collection of kink books that take up a full shelf, follow several chat boards, have attended munches, etc- but I wonder if there hasn't been a downshift (and some loss of knowledge) due to the development of political correctness in kink-land. Thoughts?

I'm still new to kink-land, but all of my semi-kinky girlfriends will readily discuss certain interests, but then it's just generally understood that anything more is totally appaling. It's just sort of amusing to listen to the conversation. Like, hey, who doesn't love a spanking now and then, but a flogger? You sick freak!

Of course, I've sort of had the same dialogue with myself, in a way. Like when I very first read about D/s, I thought well, I like the idea of a spanking, but please, no instruments/toys. That's just NOT for me. And of course that changed. And then I thought, well, okay, so I like the pain play, but there is no way anyone will ever call me a slut or any kind of dirty name. And then guess what popped into my fantasies one day? So there went that. And then recently, well, I remember reading -- actually, it was cat, you had posted about francisco slapping you in the face, and I was totally horrified. And I thought, oh god, no, never ever. And then the other day, it just popped into my head!

Anyway, I now listen politely when my sub friend tells me what she and her lover do, and I don't say a judgmental word.

 

[BiBunny]

I spent last night with B., and between his wall-rattling snoring and the cats' obnoxious meowing, I think I got maybe 3 hours' worth of sleep, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

I tend to agree with the rest of you about the way "torture" has gone out of fashion, so to speak, in this lifestyle. B. and I are both in our 20s and play a lot harder than anyone else I know in our age group (and a lot of folks who are older than we are). It doesn't matter to me how anyone plays, and I certainly don't think my BDSM is better than your BDSM, but it bugs the shit out of me when idiotic comments get thrown our way just because we don't play like others think we ought to. There are plenty of other people whom I know play harder than we do (catalina and Francisco are two such folks who come to mind). I understand that they're adults who are quite capable of making their own decisions, so while I may not want to do some of the things they do, I'm damn sure not going to tell them what they can do and what they can't do. As long as they're happy, and nobody's mortally wounded, who am I to judge?

And for what it's worth, I enjoyed plenty of mind-numbing torture last night!

 

[graceanne]

Um, I feel like I need some more examples. Not for me of course. I would never allow myself to be tortured!

No, seriously, post some more! Um, please?



I'm still new to kink-land, but all of my semi-kinky girlfriends will readily discuss certain interests, but then it's just generally understood that anything more is totally appaling. It's just sort of amusing to listen to the conversation. Like, hey, who doesn't love a spanking now and then, but a flogger? You sick freak!

Of course, I've sort of had the same dialogue with myself, in a way. Like when I very first read about D/s, I thought well, I like the idea of a spanking, but please, no instruments/toys. That's just NOT for me. And of course that changed. And then I thought, well, okay, so I like the pain play, but there is no way anyone will ever call me a slut or any kind of dirty name. And then guess what popped into my fantasies one day? So there went that. And then recently, well, I remember reading -- actually, it was cat, you had posted about francisco slapping you in the face, and I was totally horrified. And I thought, oh god, no, never ever. And then the other day, it just popped into my head!

Anyway, I now listen politely when my sub friend tells me what she and her lover do, and I don't say a judgmental word.

LOL I hear that. When I first came here I had these things I'd never do. Some I've done, and some I've agreed to do when we can afford the stuff needed. I have learned that while I might not be thrilled if K really wants to he'll probably talk me around to . . . whatever it is.

 

[intothewoods]

Although just to be a pain in the ass, a fair number of us (myself included) did go squeamish at the forced feeding stuff, right? I suppose there's rejecting something because it's politically incorrect, and rejecting something because it's just too dangerous.

 

[graceanne]

Although just to be a pain in the ass, a fair number of us (myself included) did go squeamish at the forced feeding stuff, right? I suppose there's rejecting something because it's politically incorrect, and rejecting something because it's just too dangerous.

I believe that the main reason that forced feeding was rejected was because it's soooo non-consentual. The women who've been interviewed who's SO's do that generally aren't consenting, they have no choice.

 

[CutieMouse]

Um, I feel like I need some more examples. Not for me of course. I would never allow myself to be tortured!

No, seriously, post some more! Um, please?

Intersting things... like taking asprin every day for 2 weeks prior to doing cuttings/blood play, in order to bleed more freely, or having a spray bottle of a saltwater/alcohol/water mix, to spritz on the cutting site, to create an added bit of pain/assist the blood in flowing more freely. (This would be a mild example. LOL) I found a link to an arthritis/sprts rub last night (stronger than BenGay/etc), that doesn't start heating up for 30 minutes, and the heat lasts 6 hours (and will reactivate up to 12 hours later, with the assistnce of a warm shower)- not recommended by the producer for use around mucus membranes, but I fail to see the fun in that. LOL

There are things (far darker than the examples, above) that if I'd read them 3-4 years ago, I'd have run screaming, and now I go "Huh..." and tuck the idea back in the darkest little corner of my brain.

 

[BiBunny]

Intersting things... like taking asprin every day for 2 weeks prior to doing cuttings/blood play, in order to bleed more freely, or having a spray bottle of a saltwater/alcohol/water mix, to spritz on the cutting site, to create an added bit of pain/assist the blood in flowing more freely. (This would be a mild example. LOL) I found a link to an arthritis/sprts rub last night (stronger than BenGay/etc), that doesn't start heating up for 30 minutes, and the heat lasts 6 hours (and will reactivate up to 12 hours later, with the assistnce of a warm shower)- not recommended by the producer for use around mucus membranes, but I fail to see the fun in that. LOL

There are things (far darker than the examples, above) that if I'd read them 3-4 years ago, I'd have run screaming, and now I go "Huh..." and tuck the idea back in the darkest little corner of my brain.

Your post made me think of something. For as far back as I can remember, I've had snuff fantasies. B. and I talk about them a lot and play them out sometimes. Well, obviously not all the way, or else I wouldn't be posting this, and he'd be in jail. But, yes, the scenes are quite realistic and sometimes scary. So far, I've been hung, strangled to death, and chopped to bits.

Oh, and as far as fun with arthritis medicine goes (and if you want to know how being a horse person predisposes someone to be kinky), Google "horse liniment sweat wrap" or something to that effect. I lurve to do that with a willing cock. I'm pretty sure it can be modified for females as well, though I haven't tried it yet.

 

[JMohegan]

Sooo... is "torture" a bit taboo in the 21st century? There are plenty of resources for spanking/flogging/kneeling/etc, but over the last few days I've read ideas and technical details of how to introduce XYZ, that could not be described by any other word than [exquisite] torture... I've read a lot- I have a collection of kink books that take up a full shelf, follow several chat boards, have attended munches, etc- but I wonder if there hasn't been a downshift (and some loss of knowledge) due to the development of political correctness in kink-land. Thoughts?

I suspect that the proliferation of resources on less intense activities results from market demand more than anything else.

As more & more people become aware of the world of BDSM and consciously begin to explore their place in the same, the vast majority find their comfort level on the lighter end of the spectrum of consensual pain.

I don't see this as a reflection of PC values, but rather a natural result of the distribution of human tolerance or appreciation for pain - which seems to be skewed fairly heavily to one side.

Of course, there are some people on the light end of the pain spectrum who try to discount the activities of heavier players as illegitimate.

But there are also people on the heavy end of the pain spectrum who look down their noses at the activities of lighter players, scoffing & dismissing and, in terms of intolerance, essentially doing the very same thing.

 

[CutieMouse]

Oh, and as far as fun with arthritis medicine goes (and if you want to know how being a horse person predisposes someone to be kinky), Google "horse liniment sweat wrap" or something to that effect. I lurve to do that with a willing cock. I'm pretty sure it can be modified for females as well, though I haven't tried it yet.

Damnit, now I'm thinking of all the ways to adapt that idea for a Lover. LOL

[Google rocks, and so do you ]

 

[CutieMouse]

I suspect that the proliferation of resources on less intense activities results from market demand more than anything else.

As more & more people become aware of the world of BDSM and consciously begin to explore their place in the same, the vast majority find their comfort level on the lighter end of the spectrum of consensual pain.

I don't see this as a reflection of PC values, but rather a natural result of the distribution of human tolerance or appreciation for pain - which seems to be skewed fairly heavily to one side.

Of course, there are some people on the light end of the pain spectrum who try to discount the activities of heavier players as illegitimate.

But there are also people on the heavy end of the pain spectrum who look down their noses at the activities of lighter players, scoffing & dismissing and, in terms of intolerance, essentially doing the very same thing.

Good point. The growing acceptance of BDSM in modern society is a (mostly) good thing, but maybe that very same growing acceptance caused a shift in the overall "scene dynamic" (for lack of a better term).

I know people on the "heavy" side of things, who find "light players" annoying (and to an extent would ID me as "light-ish"); my roommate has her kinks, but cringes at the things that make me grin like a kid on Christmas morning. LOLLOL

 

[JMohegan]

There was a post to the NG I was reading, in which someone wanted to know how to nail a breat to a board (I believe they then wanted the board nailed to a wall, and then be flogged). Alongside the precautions/this is not a wise thing to do in any way/shape/form, were detailed suggestions for which types of nails were least likely to cause problems (of the very bad kind), how to autoclave/boil/sterilize the nails, what sort of board could be used, how to sterilize the board, the breast, the hammer (what sort of hammer to use), and that nailing the board to the wall, then flogging the woman would probably increase the risk of tissue damage beyond an "acceptable" point, so an alternative was offered to allow for a similar experience while minimizing some of the risk. Suggestings for aftercare of the breasts was also brought up.

In the context of consensual BDSM activities, I see at least three distinct spectrums relating to the subject of "torture".

1 - The spectrum of pain.

2 - The spectrum of novelty or perceived edginess.

3 - The spectrum of risk.


My impression of someone who would be interested in the breast-to-board/board-to-wall/flogging scenario is that they must have some sort of need that places them pretty far out there on spectrum number two. Not necessarily one or three.

As an aside, I'll note that people I know who have needs placing them on the far end of the spectrum of risk would find lengthy conversations on nail types, sterilization, etc., to be unsexy in the extreme.

 

[BiBunny]

Damnit, now I'm thinking of all the ways to adapt that idea for a Lover. LOL

[Google rocks, and so do you ]

*Blush*

Life is good with tingly stuff, saran wrap, and vetrap. Let me know if you need some help figuring out how to adapt it.

 

[JMohegan]

The growing acceptance of BDSM in modern society is a (mostly) good thing, but maybe that very same growing acceptance caused a shift in the overall "scene dynamic" (for lack of a better term).

I agree, on both counts. That sums it up nicely.

 

[the captians wench]

The frustrating thing to me, is the loss of knowledge, due to a distate for "torture".

Example:

There was a thread here a while ago about nailing a breast to a board. I was firmly in the camp that doing such a thing is way too risky (particulary for a woman who might want to have children/breastfeed someday), and I couldn't image how to minimize the risks of infection/scarring/damage. I believe the overall consensus was that it wasn't a wise thing to do.

There was a post to the NG I was reading, in which someone wanted to know how to nail a breat to a board (I believe they then wanted the board nailed to a wall, and then be flogged). Alongside the precautions/this is not a wise thing to do in any way/shape/form, were detailed suggestions for which types of nails were least likely to cause problems (of the very bad kind), how to autoclave/boil/sterilize the nails, what sort of board could be used, how to sterilize the board, the breast, the hammer (what sort of hammer to use), and that nailing the board to the wall, then flogging the woman would probably increase the risk of tissue damage beyond an "acceptable" point, so an alternative was offered to allow for a similar experience while minimizing some of the risk. Suggestings for aftercare of the breasts was also brought up.

Do I still consider nailing a breast to a board to be unsafe? Yes. Do I now believe that with enough preperation the risks could be reduced to a tolerable level? Yes. Would I want it done to me? I seriously doubt it.

Reading that post added a little bit of kink-based safety knowledge to my personal knowledge of the breast, which means the next time that subject comes up, I can offer a more educated opinion... something that I'm not sure would have occured in the current PC-friendly/torture is bad environment. Or maybe it's still out there, and I've just not been looking hard enough?

I remember this discussion, and your side of the battle. *giggles* I'd be interested in the information that you found that scewed your view a bit.

 

[CutieMouse]

I remember this discussion, and your side of the battle. *giggles* I'd be interested in the information that you found that scewed your view a bit.

Check your PMs.

 

[intothewoods]

I believe that the main reason that forced feeding was rejected was because it's soooo non-consentual. The women who've been interviewed who's SO's do that generally aren't consenting, they have no choice.

You're right. I was thinking there were a few consenters, but maybe not.

 

[intothewoods]

Intersting things... like taking asprin every day for 2 weeks prior to doing cuttings/blood play, in order to bleed more freely, or having a spray bottle of a saltwater/alcohol/water mix, to spritz on the cutting site, to create an added bit of pain/assist the blood in flowing more freely. (This would be a mild example. LOL) I found a link to an arthritis/sprts rub last night (stronger than BenGay/etc), that doesn't start heating up for 30 minutes, and the heat lasts 6 hours (and will reactivate up to 12 hours later, with the assistnce of a warm shower)- not recommended by the producer for use around mucus membranes, but I fail to see the fun in that. LOL

There are things (far darker than the examples, above) that if I'd read them 3-4 years ago, I'd have run screaming, and now I go "Huh..." and tuck the idea back in the darkest little corner of my brain.

Huh. Why would you want more blood? Oh, just cuz you like the sight of blood? Okay.

Does the sports rub stink? Lol. That would be my biggest objection, I think.

 

[CutieMouse]

Huh. Why would you want more blood? Oh, just cuz you like the sight of blood? Okay.

It isn't for looking at; it's for tasting/sharing. Not a terribly common practice anymore, given the disease risks that weren't as prevelant a few decades ago, but there are still fluid bonded couples who are into biting/cutting/bloodletting/etc.

Does the sports rub stink? Lol. That would be my biggest objection, I think.

Given the places one might use toothpaste/Tigerbalm/BenGay/other ointments (listed in order of heat, BTW), one doesn't really *need* to worry about the smell.

 

[graceanne]

You're right. I was thinking there were a few consenters, but maybe not.

Their might be. *shrugs* Their's always exceptions to the rule.